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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
 Posted - 11/03/2004 : 06:04:10
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We have a semi celebrity in our midst  . Jen's vote will help decide the future of the world.
Cool.
Anyway, to turn this into a proper discussion: the Electoral College scheme seems a little backwards to me, and denies people a direct vote for president.
Seeing as the Pres isn't elected based on, say, highest number of representatives in Congress (as in the UK system), is there any reason why there shouldn't be a direct vote for President? That is, your location and state don't come into, but rather you have a direct say in the election of your leader.
This would have led to a Gore win in 2000, or a Bush win this time round. It seems like it makes more sense somehow.
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..." |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 06:09:30
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The future is already decided, it's all gloom gloom gloom....
Frank Black ate my hamster |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 06:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
is there any reason why there shouldn't be a direct vote for President?
the reason that my dad (an arch conservative) always gives is that the electoral college makes each state important - if it was purely one man one vote, no candidate would waste money in places like the dakotas, rhode island, etc. this way, everyone feels like their vote counts. i disagree, but thats the reason given.
-brian
 - "I joined the Cult of Frank / And they tried to cut off my nuts and make me put on a blue jumpsuit"
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 08:20:17
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Kerry has just conceded.
It's time to work harder than just being informed and voting. Rather than feel let down I need to become a more involved citizen, and actively make my country better. I refuse to back down and hand over my country by moving to another one.
Voting is what you do after you've done everything else you can. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 08:25:40
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it's too late apl, it already got handed over.
now bend over and prepare for the ass-ramming. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 08:32:47
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That's just pointless and lazy. It's antithetical to a healthy democracy.
If it's really time to give up, then those that think so should be quiet and let those with hope for the country and its Constitution, the will to learn from this lesson, and the will to work for change have the voice.
edit: I understand that this is depressing and warped to a lot of us, but if we give up then we are truly fucked, and we deserve what we get if the elections continue to hand us what we don't want. |
Edited by - apl4eris on 11/03/2004 08:34:53 |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 08:34:24
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look, the democrats are going to see being even more like the republicans as the solution to this problem.
religion is growing more and more every day.
we are totally fucked.
this is the beginning of the end of the USA. |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 08:37:07
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WORD, apl. You are a smartie.
I'm depressed.
_____________________________________________________________________
If you see me, look surprised
If you don't, then pass me by
And I might even touch your sleeve
Oh, as you turn to leave
________________________________
http://buymediamonds.blogspot.com |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 08:38:34
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apl i admire your optimism but i don't see it.
this country is full of nascar loving, religious imbeciles. |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 08:55:47
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I think there's a difference between optimism and hope. If we all just sit here and say, "Oh, we're totally fucked. Shit. There's nothing anyone can do now." then we've already lost any chance of making small (even if incredibly small) steps toward where we want to be. Because then...we couldn't even say that we tried and that's just not right. We may have lost the election, but we can still keep our integrity and willingness to do what we have to do.
 Penguins can be bitches too. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 08:58:27
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see you're talking out of your ass.
what do we have to do?
there's not another presidential election for four years.
that's plenty of time for this country to get totally fucking ruined.
and i'm convinced that's what's going to happen.
now how could we stop it? what's your bright idea? |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:06:50
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I never said we could "stop" it, jackass.
The "do what we have to do" comment was about actually putting up a fight instead of sitting back and watching the country get totally fucking ruined. We will lose the war, but we can atleast try to win some of the battles.
Penguins can be bitches too. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:07:55
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ok so how? how do we put up a fight? how do we win some battles?
see you're in denial, all the battles were just lost yesterday. it's over. we have nothing more we can do. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:10:15
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Thanks ramona and ebb and crouton.
There's more to this country than the presidential election. We can't allow the folks that voted for the other candidate to give up and take it - there are plenty of ways you can make a difference. Get involved and organize. Make your voice heard by your representatives. How do you think the religious right got where they are today? Activism, organization, and strong media message.
The Repubican party won this through careful planning over 30 years and a strong upsurge of strong beliefs, however warped or misguided we see those beliefs. They energized their base, reitterated their arguments day after day year after year and managed to pull their fringes to the middle to agree on a few major priciples, despite their differences. They've played a very smart hand. We have to learn from them and understand where we can find our own uniting principles. Yelling about ignorant citizens doesn't win them over, and it's a crappy empty platform to stand on.
I think the Democratic party has let this country down. Personally I think both parties are hellish imitations of what they were meant to be. The Republican Party is not about fiscal conservatism or smaller less intrusive governement - look at the push to create a Constitutional amendment that denies citizens' rights. The Constitution should never be used to TAKE AWAY rights. It was designed to CONTROL the power of the Federal goverment.
The Democratic Party has gone soft and does not even stand on its own principles. They can't take the moral high road because they take the same special interest and corporate lobbyist money that the Republicans do. So the Republicans have played dirty, and the Dems have too. I personally am disgusted by both parties, but I am more dismayed at the eagerness that the "left" has to lay down and not put any effort into their own fucking government. If you can't stand the state of things, disaffection will get you nowhere but another nightmare worse than the one before.
This two party system is a mess. They define each other by their most hated qualities. The country is more than the two parties. I don't know exactly where to start to make things better, but I plan on educating myself further and becoming active (not for either party by the way) and looking for others that are doing the same. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:12:02
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yeah in 30 years i'll be dead or dying, i don't care about thirty years from now.
quite honestly i'm not sure what state our country or the world will be in 30 years from now.
i think you're in denial. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:17:06
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Well even if that were so, there's plenty of time to give up too.
If you have no patience, a republican democracy is not for you.
I'm not saying I like it. There is a lot about our system that bothers the hell out of me. I'm just now beginning to understand that voting is NOT ENOUGH. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:20:48
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of course it isn't.
you have to teach everyone you know not to be a mindless sheep.
but it's too late for that now. not only are we fucked for at least four years, but as i stated before, the democratic party is going to see becoming even more like the republicans as the solution to this year's failure. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:21:56
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Oh, btw Cheesy, thanks for the interesting thread. Sorry for the tangent.
The Electoral College is one thing that needs to be done away with. As I understand it, it was created to protect against the "uneducated" rural voters, as well as something along what Broken Face said his Dad argues. I think there are many people that would prefer a direct democratic process. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:25:51
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hah ok now i know you're dumb.
the two things you just said are contradictory. what broken face's dad was saying is that it was created to give the rural voters more influence than if it were purely population based.
and keep in mind that kerry would have lost even more handily if it weren't for the electoral college in this case. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:40:39
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| Yes, I mispoke. I'm glad you no longer have to wonder whether I'm dumb. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:42:29
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sorry but just accept it. we're fucked.
something big, big, big is going to have to happen for this country to change course. |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:42:44
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I don't want to seem chauvinistic, but I really like the French presidential election system. It is a direct process, and it is based on two rounds - the guy who becomes the president must have obtained the absolute majority.
Of course, Bush would have won anyhow.
It is the first time that people in France are so unanimous about something - far right parties, communists, liberals and conservatives, they are all against Bush here.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
sorry but just accept it. we're fucked.
something big, big, big is going to have to happen for this country to change course.
We've BEEN fucked for ages. I acknowledged we were being fucked a long time ago. I personally am not going to give up.
On the other point, you may be right, because there are a lot more people like you that want to bend over and take it until it's too late to do anything constructive. It's easy and tempting to succumb to the negative. If you do, then whose side are you on?
No action is still action. |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 09:56:53
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I'm with you apl. I think I'm going to take this opportunity to become more involved. We need some sort of movement.
I guess I just wasn't made for these times. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 10:00:05
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Alright then.
I'm curious, what are your first thoughts about what you will do? What are your concerns about becoming involved? |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 10:04:25
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It's nice to know there are some smart Americans out there.
I know its a big country and there must be loads of smart people but when you see the news coverage of the elections and listen to all those hicks talking about how they hate "fags" and want to crack down on abortions and think that Bush should have "wiped out" everyone in Iraq it all gets very depressing.
I do partly blame the selective news coverage in Europe that likes to enforce the idea that Americans are inbred hicks but when you see preachers spreading hateful bile and people lapping it up its very concerning. I even heard one stupid fuckhead bitch about Kerry because he could speak French. As if that was a bad thing!
Its like in f 9/11, those soliders that were interviewed in Iraq who couldn't understand why the people there might be a bit pissed off at their arrival, the music playing in the tanks, the self belief that they had that they had a god given right to kill everyone in sight .
It's not that i think Bush is inherently evil, he is just so stupid, he seems to have no insight and is fixed on this "war on terror". I also think his fixation with God (didn't he say he was appointed by God) is worrying and thank fuck i live in a secular society.
Blair is a cock as well(though not as stupid as Bush)but he's leaving soon anyway and so we won't even have to wait for an election to get rid of him.
Kerry seemed fairly conservative and after watching quite a bit of election coverage it seems that no one who was liberal in any real sense of the word would stand a chance of ever getting elected. Is liberal a dirty word in the USA?
Sorry, i'm rambling. i just needed to express my frustration at it all. The fact is that the stupid, war loving, gun toting fuckheads have won, and that is a depressing thought indeed. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 10:48:57
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quote:
Originally posted by gracie
I know its a big country and there must be loads of smart people but when you see the news coverage of the elections and listen to all those hicks talking about how they ...
I do partly blame the selective news coverage in Europe that likes to enforce the idea that Americans are inbred hicks but when you see ...
Within the snips I've retained above you will find your answers, grasshopper. The path with heart will not be found through the Guardian, Reuters, or the BBC. You must close your eyes to see. Look within. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 10:55:20
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quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
We've BEEN fucked for ages. I acknowledged we were being fucked a long time ago. I personally am not going to give up.
ages? try 4 years. we had 8 years of pretty good before that, and 12 years of relative fuckery before that. but the last 4 years have set a new bar.
quote:
On the other point, you may be right, because there are a lot more people like you that want to bend over and take it until it's too late to do anything constructive. It's easy and tempting to succumb to the negative. If you do, then whose side are you on?
No action is still action.
are you retarded?
it's cute that you think you can really make a difference but i have some news for you; you can't do jack shit.
thousands and thousands of people gave every bit they had to give for this election, and it didn't matter.
why? because this country is full of idiots.
religion is bigger than ever. look at that 90% basing their vote on faith figure. that's fucking lunacy.
so now, i ask you, what is your grand plan to combat that problem? how are you going to convince those ~60 million people not to vote based on religion four years from now? |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 12:13:46
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I refuse to debate with you Ebb.
You're disrespectful and you continue to try to make a point that's not worth listening to, because it's a non-point. Go stick your head in the sand and bitch and moan and refuse to do anything useful for the rest of your life for all I care. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 12:22:59
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you were the one that started with the insults, fyi.
whatever, i knew i wasn't going to change your mind. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 12:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
you were the one that started with the insults, fyi.
Can you please tell me where that was Ebb? |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 12:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by gracie
I know its a big country and there must be loads of smart people but when you see the news coverage of the elections and listen to all those hicks talking about how they ...
I do partly blame the selective news coverage in Europe that likes to enforce the idea that Americans are inbred hicks but when you see ...
Within the snips I've retained above you will find your answers, grasshopper. The path with heart will not be found through the Guardian, Reuters, or the BBC. You must close your eyes to see. Look within.
Yeah Gracie, look within.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 12:42:45
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just read above, i don't insult you for several posts, but you start off insulting me in your first response to me.
i actually thought you were pretty cool before this thread. |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 13:13:42
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In her first response to you she said that bending over for an ass-ramming was pointless and lazy. Not that you were.
The first insult was "hah ok now i know you're dumb."
You kindof made up for that with a "sorry but accept it. we're fucked."
Then she talked about no-action and action. Oh no! So insulting...
Then you jumped right in with a nice "are you retarded?"...
Then, and only then, did she insult you.
If you're going to use the schoolyard "You started it!" you'd might as well get your facts straight beforehand.
Penguins can be bitches too. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 13:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
just read above, i don't insult you for several posts, but you start off insulting me in your first response to me.
i actually thought you were pretty cool before this thread.
Please quote me where I insulted you. I don't see it. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 13:16:32
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I don't either,
but I do see where you called her dumb.
__________
Godfather of nothing, ancesters of none.
Black glasses and feedback took my sense of fun.
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Apl's vote will count after all...
