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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2004 : 08:05:26
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I am writing a feature article on 'the man' concentrating primarily on his lyric writing, and how it has progressed through time.
If any of you had any particular thoughts or opinons on this subject, id love to be able to quote you in my article.
If possible, leave your real name and rough location, so I can include it with the quotes...if not make some thing (believable) up, so I dont have too!!!
So yeah, just anything to do with his lyrics.....im leaving it very open on purpose, so as to get a wide range of responses.
God forbid I exude confidence and enjoy sex |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 08:20:26
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Nobody has any opinions on franks lyrics? How theyve changed through time? the misconceptions? anything???????????
God forbid I exude confidence and enjoy sex |
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Hatchetman
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 10:52:28
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Well, I thought this about Dog in the Sand; At first listen the songs on this album do not seem to have a particular theme, but on closer look, the lyrics in many of the songs are about travelling, whether it be travelling to space in ‘Blast off’ and ‘Robert Onion’, the road trip in ‘If it takes all night’ and Llano Del Rio, or water taking its long destructive journey toward the sea in St Francis dam disaster
Ade
As the air conditioner hummed.... |
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Horrible
- FB Fan -
22 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 14:21:05
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| Hmmnn.. As far as dark lyrics go, I guess his writing has been influeinced by a numebr of dark events in his life. Death of his father, at one point I remember hearing his wife was ill, various record label problems, his gear got swiped, September 11th (tho thats dark for all of us), the divorce... Yeah, I could see the influences for a darker more introspective style there. |
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Sir Mike
- FB Fan -
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 20:15:53
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I've always had a hard time with "dark" as used for lyrics. A lot depends on what you consider to be dark. Maybe pick out some of the songs you think are the darkest and start from there with a shortened list. It's a tough task on which you've set. Many times a song will have elements so cryptic only the writer understands their true meaning (which many times is quite dark). It'll be interesting to see which songs you choose.
________________________
Do you ever really know who you are? |
Edited by - Sir Mike on 10/15/2004 20:17:00 |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 20:20:02
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| Hi, are you asking about his whole career or just post pixies career? I am trying to think of a real good quote for you.... when do you need it by????? |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 10:23:23
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I think I've joked before that Frank's earliest songs were about incest and freaky sex, then he started writing about Mars, and then progressed to driving. There's a lot more to it than that, though. I think a lot of the earliest songs were often "dark" in subject matter, but not in sound. There was an intentional contrast between the music and what was being said in the lyrics, as well as a definite sense of humor. I think Frank's more recent songs tend to be more direct, whether they're talking about something good or bad.
I know Frank has complained that people have overemphasized his tendency to write songs about outer space and UFOs, but that kind of stuff was partially what drew me to his music. It's true that the majority of his songs aren't about space-related things, but how many other musicians can be credited with so many space songs?
Along the lines of the sci-fi stuff, I sometimes wonder why Frank seems to be able to avoid the "nerd-rock" or "geek-rock" labels. I mean, I'm also a big fan of They Might Be Giants, and they're constantly called "nerdy," yet they don't have anywhere near as many sci-fi songs to their credit as Frank does.
"Signature quotes are so lame." --Nathan |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 10:41:17
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People called frank a nerd though
he said that at the begining of Parry The Wind High Low
on the Electric LadyLand Bootleg.
and Horrible, I think your post is good, but I don't see any September 11th influence in Frank's work. Maybe you can shine your light a bit more on that subject.
For Gypsydeath: Pixies lyrics were more mathematical (as in Pythagoras) ways of songwriting.
The lyric is never as important as the sound you make. The lyric is music itself, what you say isn't that a big a deal.
Frank said that Tame became Tame just because he needed the AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHME in the song.
The was of course meaning in the songs, (especially the earliest one, when he's talking about Puerto Rico and stuff) but it was not very personal. Gil Norton had to push frank to write lyrics at the time of Bossanova and Trompe Le Monde...
One more thing: I believe Jean is an important factor in his lyrics, Frank said that Jean said that he should write more personal lyrics, which you can really see overtime
 "I joined the Cult of Serge/'Cause he invented indierock before Frank did" |
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Horrible
- FB Fan -
22 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 14:48:51
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| There may not be a directly connected song of Frank's re: 9/11, but I'm guessing that in some sub-coinscious way it worked itself into BLD and DW, they were recorded around that time. As for myself, whenever I hear the song Black Letter Days I can't help but think about some poor soul who hated his job, wanted to quit but never did and who worked at the World Trade Center. Tuesday, 9/11, nothing special about that day, just another black letter on the calendar, and then... I mean, I know thats not what the song is about necessarily, but its just such a strong image in my head that I sometimes can't listen to the song. Fields of Marigold makes me remember the people who revolted on flight 93. Again, I know its not what the song is about, but theres a certain theme to it that evokes an image in my head. I don't think Frank has mentioned 9/11 in any interviews, I'd be interested to see if he talked about it affecting his music or not. Anyway, just random things clattering about in my head. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2004 : 00:17:01
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ohh alright I can see where you are coming from
"I joined the Cult of Serge/'Cause he invented indierock before Frank did" |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2004 : 07:28:29
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Some interesting points well made here.
Sir Mike : I know where you are coming from with the label of 'dark' lyrics not being strictly correct, particularly with frank. I guess what I mean is his lyrics are a lot different from artists such as...erm (trying to think of internatinal bands but struggling...can only think of Brit pop bands like Oasis, blur, pulp...etc)..
I thnk all lyrics have , obviously much more meaning for the artist than they do the audience. Or perhaps not., Maybe its just in different ways. I think the best artists are those can connect to a wide range of people on different levels. Michael Stipe said recently that he does not like syaing what his songs are about, they are open for interpretation, and enjoys hearing over peoples way in which they have connected with them.
Maybe its the fact that the music comes first, and lyrics secondary that gives Frank that edge...you barely even need to hear the lyrics, because the music says everything.
Yet so many other bands have tried so hard to emulate his writing, I cant think of a band that has quite succeded.
Horrible - Interesting theory. Is it not true in most cases though, that a lot of wirtiers are most inspired by things that hurt, things that make them want to express some emotions...I find it very hard to write about being happy...I know alot of people do...
The thing about travelling also very intriguing...You could almost read it as a metephor, even though he often is speaking literally...where is he travelling too? where from? hmm.
I love the idea of his lyrics being like pythagoras theory.
It is interesting that he insists that not all that many are about UFOs and the like, tat its just a rumour. You know, when youre told something is there, you look for it, so perhaps seeing things that arent actually there,. Like a magic eye type thing.
God forbid I exude confidence and enjoy sex |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2004 : 07:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Hi, are you asking about his whole career or just post pixies career? I am trying to think of a real good quote for you.... when do you need it by?????
Well spanning his whole career really, how its progressed and changed...
God forbid I exude confidence and enjoy sex |
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HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 23:34:16
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| "I'm headed fo' the daaaark!Take poop as poo poo comes!" |
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OldManInaCoffeeCan
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1467 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 17:00:43
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Hey GypsyDeath and everyone else who is contributing here,
Good topic, I enjoy such thoughtful conversation about Frank's music, and it is always nice to get new views on great art, and anything else worth talking about.
Some of my favorite songs of Franks are those about historical events. As mentioned earlier, the St. Francis Dam Disaster, along with many others such as Two Reelers (the Three Stooges) and Ole Mulholland (Los Angeles).
And then, there are those story-telling songs, I seem to enjoy the sad ones the most, e.g., Heloise (a wonderfully sad story about a woman being forced to devote her life to the priest, and perhaps on a wider scale, the philosphy and wisdom of the Greeks serving or being forced to give its self up for Christianity, I really like that bigger interpretation.)
Anyway, great topic and I'm sure I will submit some more replys soon.
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Adam
= Cult of Ray =
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 10:29:25
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I think Honeycombs lyrics are pretty damn depressing. "Put the needle in my arm..." That can't be taken any other way.
Free the Heel! |
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Stevio10
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1117 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 16:16:23
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| It depends on what the definition of "dark" is. When i think of "dark", somehow i think of something like rob zombie or marilyn manson and satan worshipping or something that the music media would like you to believe. Rightly or wrongly. I wouldn't class a lot of Frank Black's lyrics as dark, or not dark in the sense that hes gonna eat your dog and turn us all on to satan. I would say that his lyrics, or at least since Dog in the Sand, have been of raw human emotion. Sometimes in a state of desperation, such as in "I Will Run After You" or "Black Letter Day" ("i curse the one who put me here") or Cold Heart of Stone ("weather blows through my coat, its chilling my bones, but it does not compare to your cold heart of stone". Sometimes in a thoughtful reminisce such as "Chip Away Boy" ("i used to have some fun, me and everyone, now im just employed"..."i think im falling in love, and nows shes falling off her stool, its not me shes thinking of, but im her little fool and she's my helen of troy"). Sometimes theres dry humour mixed in with those hurtful human emotions too, "Horrible Day" for example ("now death as youd expect was all dressed up in black, misfortune in her stockings and a curve upon her back"). The list would go on and on but as I see it, Frank Black has a way of putting raw power into a song and make it thought provoking, enjoyable, and often brings a wry smile to my face. I feel from Dog in the Sand onwards that I can relate to these songs on a personal level, and they have helped myself get through some "dark" times as they relate to those raw human emotions and there's always hope in some Frank Black's songs, "Preachers Daughter" ("I will never get through to you, but honey if i do, i'll be singing all the way"). So i suppose in that sense, everyone has "dark" feelings and uncontrollable raw emotion under certain circumstances. Frank Black explores them and exploits them so I suppose in that sense his lyrics are "dark" but on a very human level. |
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Crispy Water
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
819 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 18:30:55
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On the travel theme, I've always felt that way about the entire Black Letter Days/Devil's Workshop release. I know they're distinct releases, but the timeframe blah blah. Anyway, I'm not even talking about just travel in terms of, "I'm driving all over the place and not settling down anywhere," or some such snot. I've always thought the words to so many of those songs sounded like an individual who aches for the past but knows it's far too late. Someone who knows in their head that change is in the air but hasn't quite unwound all the heartstrings yet. Considering all the changes in his life the next couple years, I'd like to think there's something to that. However, I don't really have a clue - I just remembered when I saw travel mentioned.
Nothing is ever something. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 23:04:20
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| This is just my silly opinion, but I actually think Frank's songs with the Catholics are some of his LEAST emotional songs. Yeah, most of them are about having your heart broken and feeling miserable, but very few of them sound, to me, like they arise from some deep, genuine empathy or from anything personal (I haven't heard HONEYCOMB yet). Rather it seems to me that lost love and/or feelin' down are probably the oldest, most typical, most basic things in the world to write a song about and that's why Frank has done it so often. It fits right in with things he's said about wanting his songwriting to go in a more traditional direction. |
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Adam
= Cult of Ray =
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 05:51:01
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Throw in SMYT with BLD and DW and you have a big theme of "moving on". Divorce, death, drown in sorrows at the bar, work, ect. All three albums talk about, in one way or another, moving on.
Free the Heel! |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 10:59:04
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I'm not sure if this has come up in the past, but in a recent rummaging through of my old browser bookmarks, I came across an interesting tidbit of information. It may shed some light onto a possible layer of reference in the dark title of "Black Letter Days".
http://www.contemplator.com/history/broadside.html
"Folk music is viewed primarily as a rural tradition where songs are passed down by word of mouth. In fact, printed folk music was extremely popular for more than four hundred years, beginning in the sixteenth century. Words to popular songs were printed on sheets of varying lengths. They came to be known as broadsides. Broadsides originally had no music but a note that the words were sung to a well known tune. Broadsides were popular in Britain, Holland, France, Italy, Spain and Germany and later in America. Interestingly, many early scholars distinguished between traditional ballads and broadsides, considering broadsides "bad representations of the original." (1)
Technically the term broadside does not refer solely to folk music. A broadside is normally considered any subject material printed only on one side of a sheet. Therefore, broadsides could also be a handbills, proclamations, advertisements, etc. Some sheets printed on both sides are still considered broadsides.
Broadsides with ballads or folk music are referred to as broadsheets, ballad sheets, stall ballads or slip songs. Early broadsides were printed in Black Letter print, and are therefore often called black-letter ballads. Around 1700 black letter typeset was replaced by roman type. Broadsides in roman type are called white letter ballads. "
Some collected "Blackletter Ballads"
http://www.lukehistory.com/resources/ballads.html
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/lilly.html |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2004 : 05:06:16
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thank you apl!
God forbid I exude confidence and enjoy sex |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2004 : 15:28:02
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quote:
This is just my silly opinion, but I actually think Frank's songs with the Catholics are some of his LEAST emotional songs. Yeah, most of them are about having your heart broken and feeling miserable, but very few of them sound, to me, like they arise from some deep, genuine empathy or from anything personal (I haven't heard HONEYCOMB yet).
Well, Honeycomb isn't a Catholics album anyway. Or did you just mean post-Cult-of-Ray Frank, rather than his work with the Catholics specifically?
"Signature quotes are so lame." --Nathan |
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 16:14:26
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For me, one of Frank's most haunting songs is "Dog in the Sand" It was actually first released as an instrumental and totally had this space-travel surfer music sound. I always found it intriguing how the song evolved into the "Dog in the Sand" we know. On one hand the song seems like a end to a long journey, but there also seems to be something absolutely bittersweet about it.
Does anyone have insight to what the song is really about.
Is it Dark or Light?
For GypsyDeath: This might be interesting to explore. I don't know how much time lapsed between the instrumental version and the "Dog in the Sand" version (I don't have the CD's with me at the moment), but the two songs absolutely have a different feel like they are from two different points in time.
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two reelers
* Dog in the Sand *
Austria
1036 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 01:14:32
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there is definitely a change from teenager to fb&tc - with cult of ray as a transition album. remember, also his recording style changed from there on to more "raw" & direct techniques. cult of ray is interesting, since it serves both sides - the light & quirky side (space & ufo-references like the marsist, men in black, the instrumentals, cult of ray, punk rock city) and the more personal - and therefore more dark - level (i don't want to hurt you, last stand of shazeb adleeb, "i want to be alone-i want to be inside my headphones", first post-pixies-sorrow in you ain't me ?).
i also think the song cult of ray is the perfect mixture of both worlds - complex & very pixies-esque in music and lyrics, but in the latter a misanthropic view shines through ("i heard his voice so fine above this constant dripping chatter")
from his lyric writing, i guess frank has a more negative than positive view on mankind, and so yes, his lyrics are basically dark, when they cover personal or more "earth-bound"-themes.
Open the gate, it's a big Wiener dog ! |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 06:45:21
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My interp. of "Dawg in the Sand":
It's about making a home in a new place. The dog already feels at home playing and laying in the sand, so maybe you too can relax and make peace with your new surroundings.
I believe Frank once remarked that this song is inspired by his mother after his father died. Maybe she moved out of the old house? |
Edited by - Jason on 11/04/2004 21:56:57 |
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Sir Mike
- FB Fan -
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 21:46:28
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Maybe I look at this a bit strangely (I will say 'dark' as a descriptive term is too broad or vague or empty for me but I'll try) but perhaps there is some jading more than pure pessimism. By this I mean some people are just plain pessimists and have always been a dark-side viewer. Some people remain positive as adults but become more and more jaded toward a sort of pessimism that still retains certain elements of the old optimism. I would look at many of the lyrics as the latter. Some positive elements still shine through but there seems to be some disappointment present too in the darker side.
________________________
Do you ever really know who you are? |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 06:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by two reelers
there is definitely a change from teenager to fb&tc - with cult of ray as a transition album. remember, also his recording style changed from there on to more "raw" & direct techniques. cult of ray is interesting, since it serves both sides - the light & quirky side (space & ufo-references like the marsist, men in black, the instrumentals, cult of ray, punk rock city) and the more personal - and therefore more dark - level (i don't want to hurt you, last stand of shazeb adleeb, "i want to be alone-i want to be inside my headphones", first post-pixies-sorrow in you ain't me ?).
i also think the song cult of ray is the perfect mixture of both worlds - complex & very pixies-esque in music and lyrics, but in the latter a misanthropic view shines through ("i heard his voice so fine above this constant dripping chatter")
Very interesting point of view. I think Cult is definitely a transitory album. Some songs, like the Marsist, are very quirky and could easily fit on a Pixies album if produced by Gil Norton. Other songs, like You Ain't Me, definitely show Frank exploring the field of normal/traditional rock songwriting. I agree completely. |
Edited by - IceCream on 03/30/2005 06:24:42 |
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hWolsky
= Cult of Ray =
France
696 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 07:08:42
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Interesting conversation.
I'm a regular kid! |
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Frank Black & dark lyrics
