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Skatealex1
* Dog in the Sand *
1721 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2025 : 13:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
This definitely has been said a few times but do we know what that even means? My assumption (and JUST an assumption) is Tom engineered the recording of those but didn't "produce" in the way we hear on the Pixies Podcast where he's basically acting like a 5th member of the band?
I can understand liking BTE more than the demos. Like I said, it's a very handsome album. And it's genuinely difficult for me to pinpoint if it's the SONGWRITING or just the SOUND of the demos that is so appealing to me, and even emotional for me. If the BTE songs were presented in the way the demos were presented, would I be going crazy for those?
But I could totally see somebody thinking If Frank had put out that 9 song album as an actual album, Catholics or Pixies or whatever, I'd not question it at all (maybe add one or two more songs for normal album length.)
I suspect this album is a bit of both. A bit more raw/unhinged Frank Black songwriting and not over cooking and producing things...
I think that was one of the fun things about FB's solo/Catholics stuff in his prolific days. Even with the not top tier stuff it still had a sense of fun to it and maybe more of a raw feel at times.
I also agree it would be a solid album if it was released that way- interesting to think with another producer this could've been the main release maybe with Graveyard Hill on there as a single and Daniel Boone or something else added on. If I was ranking things I could see it even ranking somewhat top tier for late era FB releases before Pixies besides maybe Bluefinger. |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3295 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2025 : 15:53:28
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To me this is almost like an alternate take of In the Arms of Mrs Mark of Cain
Song always seems kind of schizophrenic to me
Kind of wish Frank could try it in a higher octave
But that’s all nitpicking I have always really digged this song
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zIeZnfzsCrg |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1086 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2025 : 19:43:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Kind of wish Frank could try it in a higher octave
Yes, I've always thought the song is in way too low a key and could have been really great live just up a few steps. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6311 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2025 : 01:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
Don't want to monopolize the conversation, just a few points:
"I really like to point out, and will continue doing it, that Tom also produced the demos."
This definitely has been said a few times but do we know what that even means? My assumption (and JUST an assumption) is Tom engineered the recording of those but didn't "produce" in the way we hear on the Pixies Podcast where he's basically acting like a 5th member of the band?
Good question, and it's a bit nitpicking from my part, but since we are all speculating here, I would also like to point out that Justin Pizzoferrato engineered the session.
It's not on Discogs for some reason, so I just looked at my deluxe edition and it says: recorded, mixed and mastered by Justin Pizzoferrato.
He also worked on Indie Cindy, and a record by Violet which also features BF.
Tom Dalgety is noted for being the producer. That could mean anything,
since we don't have a podcast episode on how they worked during the demos.
But isn't it good to know that Dalgety can also get them to play like they did on the demo's? It happend before, so it can happen again?
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
Edited by - billgoodman on 09/18/2025 01:33:44 |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1086 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2025 : 08:17:20
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"recorded, mixed and mastered by Justin Pizzoferrato"
I thought producers did the mixing...? In my mind that's what produced MEANS. The person who mixed your album. From the recording stage to right before mastering.
I really want to know more about these sessions. Is Tom listed as a producer just because he's overseeing the entire project in general? |
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Skatealex1
* Dog in the Sand *
1721 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2025 : 09:04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
"recorded, mixed and mastered by Justin Pizzoferrato"
I thought producers did the mixing...? In my mind that's what produced MEANS. The person who mixed your album. From the recording stage to right before mastering.
I really want to know more about these sessions. Is Tom listed as a producer just because he's overseeing the entire project in general?
I think producing can go both ways. For example- Rick Rubin from my understanding doesn't even do mixing or mastering but produces a lot of big records. In that context I guess overseeing and helping keep things together for sessions and working with the band could be a producers role too.
That's interesting about Justin Pizzoferrato. Almost seems like he may have helped mix and master the best sounding modern Pixies album and it goes totally under the radar too.
The funny thing about it also is it sounds like it resulted from getting everything to sound good and without much studio trickery- IE- I don't recall much or any over dubs on this demo. Just a nice rawer kind of sound of the band playing. |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3295 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2025 : 10:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Kind of wish Frank could try it in a higher octave
Yes, I've always thought the song is in way too low a key and could have been really great live just up a few steps.
Is that part of why the demos are so good?
On Cyrus he sounds like an older Black Francis instead of on most 2.0 songs where he sounds like an older Frank Black if that makes sense |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1086 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2025 : 16:29:25
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| I do think those demos have a youthful quality to them, but I can't place why that is. I completely agree that he sounds more like classic Black Francis or youthful Frank Black on them. Those songs also have an attitude to them (for example the way Frank says "dedication..to medication...") that I think is lacking in the more polished BTE songs. |
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The Maharal
* Dog in the Sand *
1019 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2025 : 23:00:55
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| I think it's just an angry divorce album. He packed into those songs the more personal bits of what was then happening in his life than what made into the actual BTE album. I love the demos but for BF's own sake I hope he doesn't have to make another breakup album. |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1086 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2025 : 08:57:08
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I was looking at the lyrics for those demos on Genius. Something I've actually never done. I like the lyrics throughout BTE but I think these demos have more intriguing, ambiguous and interesting lyrics that remind me of classic Frank...Let's look at them!
Good Words of Cyrus: I have no idea what this song is about, but what I love about this is the unusual structure, something Dalgety seems allergic to (there must be a bridge! Then a big guitar coming in for the final choruses! Etc etc!) It's basically two verses, three choruses, but one of the choruses ("there is a flood that's coming") is kind of unexpected in the middle with no verse before it, and a rocking part, and it ends, and they don't try to push it to anything beyond that, and to me, that keeps that original spark of the song. Now I really like the bridge to Daniel Boone, but I still recall the podcast of Dalgety insisting it needs a bridge. You know David Lowery (Cracker, Camper Van Beethoven) doesn't even write bridges!
I heard the words of Cyrus
Stopped at the light one day
He blessed me for the offering
Then he looked at me and said:
"There is a flood that's coming
So make your plans for running
Far away"
There is a flood that's coming
So make your plans for running
I paid him almost nothing
And nothing I have laid
I cursed the pearls of Cyrus
I threw them all away
Though high above it's sunny
There ain't no use in running
Not today
Please Don't Go has more down to earth lyrics, but similarly has two verses, choruses and it ends. We don't have Dalgety trying to push it into some huge rock ballad. It feels more honest and sad that way. I actually skipped this song for a year or two because I associated it with the death of a loved one and it hurt too much.
Chapel Hill? Well we all know this is nothing that would be allowed on a Dalgety Pixies album. It's too weird and too similar to earlier Pixies. Sure, it seems like an unfinished song, but so do other songs on Surfer Rosa or Trompe Le Monde! Who cares, throw it on an album! It's cool.
Caught in a Dream has always been very odd to me. It's so repetitive, and it actually captures the feeling of being "caught" in something because the song never really escapes to any other lyrics or bridges or anything like that. Again, unusual and nothing like the other songs around it, which is what Pixies albums used to be like! No song was like the others, especially structurally. Dream just reuses the same lyrics over and over. Maybe it's unfinished? But maybe it should stay that way, because I think it's more intriguing than a typical song.
Mal De Mer is another song that has a unique structure, like the instrumental breaks between the verses (all these songs have great chances for Joey to take center stage, plus great Paz vocalizing throughout too) and I'm not even sure there's an identifiable chorus except the way they repeat "all my teenage sirens" towards the end. I love these lyrics (assuming they are accurate):
Never moved by my appeal
All my teenage sirens
I always die behind the wheel
On the coastal highway
I was feeling mal de mer
From all that teenage violence
Voices in the smoggy air
All my teenage sirens
Now I'm cut up in the plume
Will stop seeing you sideways
Now I'm ribbons in the spoon
And the world is silence
I was feeling mal de mer
All my teenage sirens
All my teenage sirens
(Teenage sirens)
Hey Debussy notably has a lot of footnotes added by users to explain what Frank is singing about:
https://genius.com/19106382?
It's also another unusual one but reminds me of classic Pixies (or Frank.) It's musically weird, his vocals are a crazy performance, it's full of references you have to google, and the chorus at the end (which to me is insanely catchy) repeats over and over and over. I can imagine Dalgety going "too many times! If this is going to be a single you have to only do the chorus two or three times! And where's the huge guitars to come in and make it triumphant sounding?!?"
Hey there Marie
Just what do you see
That jerk ennui
Hello Italy
Hey there Gaby
My baby baby baby
You can't even sing
Like that sweetie Thérse
Hey Debussy
You're talking to me
Hey Debussy
Are you walking with me?
Hey Rosalie
My lil’ lil’ lady Lilly
If you ever leave me
I'll suicide me
(chorus a million times)
I think my favorite song may be Under the Marigold. Musically it captures that "fuck it" feeling. It sounds laid back and casual but also kind of miserable. I love Frank's talking verses which if I need to remind you is like the kind of thing the Pixies would do! And it makes the chorus more musically satisfying for that contrast. The lyrics are more Catholics though, I think, except for "maybe in this next life I'll come back as a disease" which has a touch of Pixies.
You know, I actually hardly ever drink this stuff
But funny or not now, I can't seem to get enough
I got nothing against life, just sometimes it kills
Will you warm me a little?
'Cause I'm getting the chills
You know, I always knew that you would surely understand
After all, I'm just a guy who's living in his van
Maybe in the next life I'll come back as a disease
Will you warm me a little?
'Cause I'm starting to freeze
So babe, would you come down to the night of the bereft?
First you gotta go right, then you gotta go left
Parked in the moonlight, yeah, 'neath the marigold
Will you warm me a little?
It's just getting so cold
I also have no idea what How I Learned to Earn Rewards is about. It's got a great riff throughout and I love how catchy the chorus is. I also love the "pre-chorus" part and the way Paz sounds on things like "we're never satisfied." A lot of the lyrics on the demo album have a sexual energy to them that reminds me of classic Pixies, though of course from the perspective of an older guy, though apparently not much wiser it seems.
I got a message from Julie
I got my head in the clouds
I asked her if she would screw me
She said "you better start to looking for ground"
Dedication
To medication
We regret to inform
We're never satisfied
How I learned to earn rewards
How I learned to please the lords
I never dream when I slumber
I never shoot when I aim
And since you're knowing my name now baby
Would you please look at the number
I Just Can't Break It To You...I do think Dalgety was perceptive in that these 9 songs really work together and the BTE songs really work with each other. I totally get that. Break It is another thrashy miserable catchy rocking relationship song. And I love it. The 9 song demo album is a real "mood" for me and I think the tone of it speaking to me much more than BTE is why I prefer it.
But also look at the unusual structure: verse 2 cuts off early ("roar of fighter jets") so that Joey can do some cool shit. Then it's on to verse 3! I don't know that I have ever seen a song do that before? That is what Pixies is to me. Unpredictable. Speaking of which what is going on in verse 3? These are classic Frank lyrics. "I tightened up my neck tie 'lest the brownies make me bleed / I thought of my inheritance I did receive today / A few drops for my troubles and a thing for Morgan le Fay." I LOVE these songs.
I went to your house, I knocked very hard
She won't wake up, I slept in the yard
A German and a Russian and a Frenchman do their best
The Frenchman had a breakdown so they gave it all a rest
You took a boat to Indochine and you partied in Saigon
But they followed him and they begged to him that they should carry on
I just can't take it
I just can't fake it
I just can't break it to you
I just can't take it
I just can't break it to you
I slept at the bar, I'm not feeling fresh
I hear the roar of fighter jets
I went to your house, they bulldozed it down
I danced at a barn, but you weren't around
Lying on my back, little ground has come to feed
I tightened up my neck tie 'lest the brownies make me bleed
I thought of my inheritance I did receive today
A few drops for my troubles and a thing for Morgan le Fay
I just can't take it
I just can't fake it
I just can't break it to you
I just can't take it
I just can't break it to you
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Edited by - Troubles A Foot on 09/19/2025 15:03:08 |
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Skatealex1
* Dog in the Sand *
1721 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2025 : 11:34:19
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It's almost a little jarring to me thinking of the quality of this demo and then going to Doggerel which I think has the usual Dalgety trappings that kind take it down a notch. I don't think it's the worst album ever but as Pixies it's just very mediocre to my taste personally.
I almost wonder if they where encouraged to follow these demo lines of thinking maybe we'd be getting more interesting Pixies albums? (For those of use that aren't so into the more recent ones).. IE- more raw off the cuff Pixies than what they've been doing lately.
Also one more thing I think stands out on the demo album- I think this might be some of Joey Santiagos best work in Pixies 2.0. His lines just kind of blend in and do interesting things on many of these songs. It's nothing ever that's too in your face or stops a song for some big solo thing but I think that makes it work really solid on them. |
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Beneath the Eyrie
