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frankblackphx
= Cult of Ray =
USA
287 Posts |
 Posted - 01/15/2003 : 17:23:45
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| Was just curious if any one knew if Frank and the Catholics used a Click Track when they record? |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2003 : 17:37:04
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| Hi, Dan! What's a Click Track? (Seriously, I'd like to know--I'm not just being a smartass.) = ) |
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carsonwerner
= Cult of Ray =
USA
254 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2003 : 19:14:19
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| It's like a metronome, so they stay in time and don't end up speeding up, etc... |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2003 : 19:33:24
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I'd imagine they don't. Just a guess. But Scott Boutier is probably rad enough to keep awesome time.
Derek |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2003 : 19:54:41
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It would be difficult for them to use a click while doing live to 2 because of the bleed from everyone's headphones. Unless Scott is the only one getting click (which is normally not a good idea) I think you'd be able to hear the click track in the background on the record.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2003 : 20:09:06
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I've caught Scott speeding up on a couple of tracks, so they clearly don't use it on all the songs, if any. Also, wouldn't a click-track be against Frank Black's "live" recording ethic?
I think I once read that a click-track is sometimes "performed" by a studio person instead of electronically generated. Can anyone confirm this? |
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mdisanto
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 03:42:44
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if a person could perform a click track right, they may as well just play without one when they record, or seems that way to me atleast. i dont think itd be blasphemous for FBandC's to use a click track. I haven't noticed any serious tempo changes, but im sure there could be a few little ones if you listen, nothing that really sticks out though. i imagine if youve been playing drums as long as scott then you probably get down the whole staying in time thing pretty well.
-miked |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 15:56:25
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| I wonder if Scott listens to the songs, and how many he finds his own mistakes in (that might not be obvious to non-drummer folks like me..) |
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frankblackphx
= Cult of Ray =
USA
287 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 16:51:08
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Yeah, I was thinking that it probably would go against Frank's live feel. Everytime my band has recorded with a click track it's from a drum machine. I have never heard of a person keeping the click track.
Was just curious.
Thanks guys. Hopefully Harris can let me know. :) |
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dubethic
- FB Fan -
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 18:43:18
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There are several slight tempo changes in the Live to 2-track recordings. 1826 on "Black Letter Days" has one I picked up on. But that song is in 4/4 time and the Lick is in 3/4 and that is hard to do. For any one that wants to know that is called a polyrhythm
I personaly like the imperfections (tempo changes, Frank out of tune) It reminds of older recordings where the tempo wasn't so rigid. Even old funk recordings which are all about rhythm have slight variations. Now days music is so over produced that slight changes don't happen. |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 15:03:06
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quote:
Originally posted by frankblackphx
Was just curious if any one knew if Frank and the Catholics used a Click Track when they record?
I don't think that the use of a click track is inherently against the live recording ethos. Plenty of groups who record live or live to two-track use click tracks because their drummers have problems maintaining excellent meter over the course of long songs or those with several tempo changes.
Things like that often go unnoticed during a live show (especially if they are slight), but when preserved for posterity on record they can be glaring and transport the careful listener out of whatever state of enjoyment they're in to a world of focusing on technical imperfections.
Frank told me they avoid using click tracks, but of course, that doesn't mean they never do. Also, it is common practice for many groups to rehearse several takes with a click track, then turn it off and almost immediately play the song without one, but with the rigid tempo still ringing in their ears. This is often a good compromise.
It's also a common misconception that using click tracks result solely in metronomic timekeeping. True, this is often the case in dance, pop and metal music, but often in the rock, country or just plain weird world of genre-hopping artists like Frank Black, click tracks are used as guides only. The drummer, and his bandmates can choose to intentionally play "behind" or "ahead of" the robotic (and therefore unnatural and inhuman) beat. This adds a certain degree of "swing" to the song while helping to keep everyone fairly together.
There may be plenty of songs where Frank's rhythm section speeds up or slows down a bit that were done using click tracks. The comment about the bleed from their headphones is correct. If the click is up too loud, it will definitely be heard, especially with the sensitive mics that FB and The C's prefer. Therefore, once a band starts really rocking, it's easy for their own noise to overshadow the metronome in their ears. Usually the drummer, awash in snare and cymbal crash gets off a bit, but by this time the whole group is following him anyway, and they go along for the ride.
Another approach is for bands to use a click track for the first half of a song, usually to help the group through long breaks or silent passages. Then, once things hit high gear or the solo comes around, the click is turned down in their ears and they fly on instinct. It's incredibly difficult even for seasoned and well-rehearsed players like Frank's group to nail things as tightly as the intro to "St. Francis Dam Disaster" without some sort of a guide, although i anyone could do it, they probably could.
I have been involved in several recording sessions, where the entire band – minus the drummer – played to a drum machine-generated click. Then, after their parts were done, I was brought in to play the drums along to the rest of the band. A peculiar method, but one that has the potential to work very well for a certain feel or type of song.
As far as the "human click track" question: There have been times that I have played a simple high-hat pattern or stick click to a metronome, and then used that as my click track, rather than listening to the automated beat. The benefits are that you can often keep that track in the final mix, bleed-through isn't as much of a problem, and the live "quantization" that comes along with doing it this way only adds to the humanized feel and helps the finshed product to sound less stilted and robotic.
Using a click track is one of the banes of my existence. They're hard as hell to play to well, and those drummers who have that knack are in constant demand due to the high cost of wasting studio time trying to get things right.
If anyone wants to hear concrete examples of the "click/no click" thing, you can check out one of my bands at:
www.mp3.com/superhorse
The first song "Whisper His Name" was recorded with a click. The tempo is rock solid for the majority of the song. However, toward the end of the tune there is a stuttered roll which breaks up the droning choruses. I borrowed the lick from Luna's old drummer Stanley Demeski, who stole it outright from the Velvet Underground's Moe Tucker (see the alternate instrumental studio take of "Ride Into The Sun" off of the VU's Another View LP). It fit perfectly, but by the time I came out of it, I had sped up a couple of beats per minute. All the guitars and Moog bass had already been laid down onto the tape, so it was up to the copious backing vocals to smooth the awkward transition. I suppose I could have gone back and played it again but it was 4 in the morning and I needed some rest. Basically, I'm playing a hair faster than the rest of the group from that point until the end of the song. See if you can hear what I mean.
The second track "Tattoo" was recorded FB-style, live to two-track stereo and mixed as we went, on the fly. The clicking you hear throughout the song is me striking the metal rim of my rack tom with a wooden stick to keep the rest of the band in time with each other during the long quiet passages. This was only meant as a demo, but I use the stick-on-rim thing when we play that one live not only because it helps those guys, but it sounds so bizarre and unprofessional that audiences seem to get a kick out of it. The tempo in that one is far from perfect, but it flows well. We recently cut a more polished version of that for our upcoming album, and for that, we used a click, so that we could lose the rimshots and it would sound like we were real badasses.
The last track was recorded through the PA board at a raucous live show several years ago. There's no semblance of a click track or even of a steady tempo, but I think by a few minutes into the song, half the band was rolling around on the floor of the stage with their heads in their amps, so I guess that wasn't really the point. Sometimes it's best to be so far off the beat that you come back around and meet yourself...
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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