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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
 Posted - 01/16/2003 : 12:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
In fact, to the extent that humans achieve conditions of harmony and trust, they create the very context in which discord and violation of that trust are most likely to succeed. A lie works best in a community of habitual truth-tellers.
Actually a lie works best in a community where you are unlikely to re-encounter the person that you have lied to (think big city). You may be punished if that person re-encounters you. However, in that kind of situation (big city) the other person is unlikely to believe your lie (so I guess in some ways it doesn't work), because there isn't any threat to keep from lying. This is why co-operation tends to work better in small groups. I think you're right. People aren't cocoperating because they're good inside. They're co-operating because their society will punish them if they lie or do not follow social norms.
quote:
[i] In evolutionary terms it's about struggle between
exploiters and exploited for reproductive success. It's not about justice or rights or morality. Both sides are equally selfish. Is it sad? Of course it is. The entire biosphere is little more than an orgy of violence, and for what? For indefinite replication of DNA on the crust of an insignificant rock plummeting through an infinite void of space and time.
Yep. It's all about reproduction. But, really I think it's beautiful how such a simple algorithm (traits good at survivial & reproduction get passed on to the next generation) can lead to such complex and well "designed" system. How an animal is so well suited to its environment. How societies (animal and human) are organized. How individuals compete through different strategies.
A great book on this subject is Daniel Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea |
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St. Francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
548 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 16:01:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Omer
Oh God, can we please keep the french nutcases out of this?
Omer
Sure...
Non-French Nutcases who say similar relevent things about capital, exchange and desire:
Marshall McLuan
Noam Chomsky
Slavoj Zizek
Hakim Bay
Umberto Eco
Brothers be on my jock 'cause the way I hold a piece of steel... |
Edited by - St. Francis on 01/16/2003 16:02:00 |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 07:05:03
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Francis - I generally find Chomsky to be coherent and interesting, even if I often disagree with him. You should check out what he said about the French/American Cult of incherence. (He's quoted in 'Fashionable Nonsense' by Sokal and Bircmont - brilliant book)
Erebus - Regardless of the validity of your opinions as social observations, (and i generally agree with our darwin about it), keep evolutionary theory out of it. Evolution deals with so-called selfish GENES - which might lead to either selfish or non selfish behaviour (think of the animal as a supereme collection of phenotypic effects co-working). I suggest you read more Von Neumann (although I haven't read anything by him directly), and maybe a little less Spencer or Matt Ridley.
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 08:10:14
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| Omer - Why keep evolutionary theory out of it? You didn't give a reason. |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 17:42:14
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Darwin - I thought I did. I'm skeptical about applications of BIOLOGICAL evolutionary theories to human sociology and economics. Much of human behaviour doesn't make evolutionary sense - think of Catholic priests, for example. As Richard Dawkins points out, humans are ruled by both genes and memes.
I'm not saying that you can't possibly apply evolutionary theory to human behaviour, but it requires much care and sophistication in treatment. |
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St. Francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
548 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 17:45:26
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Have not read the last few posts yet because I am getting swamped at work and tired when I get home (fucking capitalism) but I'll have something for your asses by the end of the weekend... perhaps from a nutcase French man...
Brothers be on my jock 'cause the way I hold a piece of steel... |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 11:44:21
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| This thread died a premature death, in my opinion. |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 12:07:09
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I think so too! although, a really interesting discussion of History would be cool. I'm even willing to bear some of the Pomo-crowd, as long as I get to shoot off some of the major baddies (like Lacan declaring that the square root of minus one is the erectile organ :-)
Anyway, right now, I'm reading a book about science, but it will be followed immidiately by a book about the Civil War. Darwin - you might like the book I'm reading; It is called 'Consilience - The Unity of Knowledge' and basically the point is that Evolutionary Biology is the key to everything. I'm simplifying, of course, but that's the jist of it. I don't think the author (two times Pulitzer winner E.O. Wilson) is anywhere near proving his point, but the beginning has lots of cool philosophy stuff, and the ending is one of those depressing enviormental messeges that are probably good for your soul :-) |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 14:03:45
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| I haven't read Consilience, but I have read much of Wilson's Sociobiology and The Diversity of Life. Many people really hate Wilson's ideas, but he can't be criticized for being a small thinker. |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 03:12:13
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| I don't feel like letting this topic die quite yet |
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theonecontender
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
565 Posts |
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