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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2003 : 19:32:29
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Exactly, Dallas! It was fine until the goverment stuck their greedy hand into what is basically none of their business! And that is basically taxing a 'gift'...from one human to another, IF they feel it is deserved. That that is taxed is ridiculous.
But as for the Starbucks person, this is EXACTLY where my problem lies. Why should I feel harrased beforehand going into an establishment, quake in my boots about perhaps swallowing some snot-nose college idiots saliva because of a GRATUITY that wholly resides within the decisional right of the consumer? You need to get a new job. Seriously. Coffee is NOT worth the avenue of abuse you are experiencing. You are falling victim to public abuse (because the consumer public,in general, unless you've worked in retail or food industry are unfair and greedy) and are motivated by this abusive behavior. GET OUT. By practicing what you have expressed is actually debasing (ha!) your character, and bringing yourself down to a level of childishness. Believe me. I know. I am a much happier person now that I don't work for the public.
Anyhow...I still believe that tipping is a reward. And it should be practiced as it was originally intended. TO INSURE PROMPT SERVICE.
Catchin' blue in his eyes that were brown
-bRIAN |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 20:11:29
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I worked at a coffee shop in Maryland (not corporate) and I never expected tips, and also the manager said he didn't like the idea of having a tip cup because it looked rude "asking" for tips by having this cup in front of you with TIPS written on it. Though I wouldn't have minded some tips, I think it is a good point about not indirectly asking customers for tips via cup.
 "Join the Cult of Gunn / And you'll get an eighties Monster Ballad CD just for joining" |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 23:01:24
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I can deal with a tip cup, that's not rude.
Charging 20% extra on all meals is rude... |
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pinkashtray
- FB Fan -
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 01:28:04
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quote:
Originally posted by TRANSMARINE
Exactly, Dallas! It was fine until the goverment stuck their greedy hand into what is basically none of their business! And that is basically taxing a 'gift'...from one human to another, IF they feel it is deserved. That that is taxed is ridiculous.
But as for the Starbucks person, this is EXACTLY where my problem lies. Why should I feel harrased beforehand going into an establishment, quake in my boots about perhaps swallowing some snot-nose college idiots saliva because of a GRATUITY that wholly resides within the decisional right of the consumer? You need to get a new job. Seriously. Coffee is NOT worth the avenue of abuse you are experiencing. You are falling victim to public abuse (because the consumer public,in general, unless you've worked in retail or food industry are unfair and greedy) and are motivated by this abusive behavior. GET OUT. By practicing what you have expressed is actually debasing (ha!) your character, and bringing yourself down to a level of childishness. Believe me. I know. I am a much happier person now that I don't work for the public.
Anyhow...I still believe that tipping is a reward. And it should be practiced as it was originally intended. TO INSURE PROMPT SERVICE.
Catchin' blue in his eyes that were brown
-bRIAN
im a big grrl..i know whats going on..i know where i work and i know who i work for. thanks for yr concern.
i don't necessarily agree with the shit that goes on..but if i don't see it, i don't care.
just giving you guys the inside scoop on starbucks dirt.
i got a broken face |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:25:43
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Just curious, do you have to declare tips as income in Canada, anyone?
I'm pretty sure the answer is of course, but how much or
how does that work? |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 12/09/2003 12:27:16 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:31:54
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It's regulated provincially. The only province that does so right now is Quebec. A recent bill to tax gratuities was shot down in Ontario three months ago.
 "Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:48:21
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so you don't have to declare them in Alberta,
I'm gonna switch jobs here then I think ;) |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:51:50
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Not to my knowledge.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:52:18
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Transmarine I dont know if I consider a tip a 'gift' and not a wage. The 'gift' is based on the quality of the work. I've never had it put to me that way and it makes me think, but, I still think it is a wage issue.
The only winners in the current system are the Restaurant owners. They save SS tax $'s and pay a lower wage to their employees. Customers have to deal with the whole tipping issue and for some it creates discomfort or anxiety. Servers go from customer to customer with no real link between their work and their wages (unless all customers have good tip etiquette). The Gov't loses tax income because tip wages are for the most part self-reported.
Like most issues this one is not as simple as it seems... |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:55:23
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| Well then don't the servers 'win' at least a bit as they don't have to pay taxes on that part of their earnings, if they don't declare it. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 13:03:43
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It's definitely not simple, though I find that saying the only winners are restaurant owners seems to be simplification in itself.
Restaurants employ people who need the job, generally for short durations. The ratio of transition servers to career servers is massive. In short, taxing/removing gratuities would NOT change the wage being paid because the workers are primarily unskilled and untrained. The price restaurants that pay minimum wage or close to it pay as a result is high turnover which is very expensive as the restaurants do all the training on their dime.
Servers, on the other hand, can manage to go through school or pursue a separate full time or part time interest whether education or otherwise and still make end meet. Or make more money than they would without the tips.
Tipping should never be mandatory. It should be a reflection of service. I refuse to pay what effectively amounts to commission as mandatory tip, and I refuse to patronize an establishment that levies a mandatory tip. Not only do I think it misses the point, but restaurants that are set up this way do so to convince their servers to push product, whether desserts or appetizers or expensive wines and entrees, and about the last thing I want in a restaurant is a fake server trying to get me to order something I don't really want so he/she can get their 15% cut of it.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 13:08:49
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or servers that bother you every 5 minutes
just to make sure everything is okay.
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 13:13:09
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I was suggesting that the servers have to deal with wage uncertainty because of the variability in how people tip. I defer to you CoF, you bring up some great points.
Yes Carolynanna they do win in that way, but, they have to become tax evaders (technically against the law) to do so. I dont think they should have to.
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Cookie
- FB Fan -
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 13:15:20
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| I have worked in a doctor's office. One of the college kids quit his job there as a receptionist because he made a lot more money as a waiter at a local steakhouse. That's fucked up. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 13:48:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
The only winners in the current system are the Restaurant owners. They save SS tax $'s and pay a lower wage to their employees. Customers have to deal with the whole tipping issue and for some it creates discomfort or anxiety. Servers go from customer to customer with no real link between their work and their wages (unless all customers have good tip etiquette). The Gov't loses tax income because tip wages are for the most part self-reported.
Like most issues this one is not as simple as it seems...
I heartily agree with most of what you're saying, Dallas. The only thing I wonder about is the issue of taxation of tips being based on declared tips, which to my understanding and experience was not true. When I was a server, the taxes were levied on the basis of a 15% added income from tips - it was not based on declared tips, it was assumed by the IRS. It sounds like this varies widely outside the US, and possibly even within the states (not sure how this would work, being a federal income tax structure). I have to reitterate that in 1994 in KY, $2.15 per hour was the minimum wage for servers, whereas for other jobs it was $5.00/hour. I was a trained server, having worked as one throughout most of my highschool and early college years.
I agree that tipping is deleterious to the customers (more expensive, seems to cause anxiety/consternation), and generally does not even insure prompt or even decent service, but it also eventually backfires on the servers. It would be much better if waitstaff were paid the standard federal minimum wage.
-Durnit! I had no idea I had so much to say about tipping. Get me off this crazy thing! <phew!>
 Join the Cult of Carl / Lisening him do bass for our power ballad 'Hypocrite of the Heart' is like lisening to angels play bass. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 14:04:16
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Apl, are you saying in the States there is a dichotomous minimum wage where servers have lower minimum wage to compensate for gratuities? And then are taxed on the gratuities anyway, so the government effectively double dips? If so, that's pretty offensive policy.
As far as increased wage, assuming that the above is not true and that a restaurant would actually increase the wages paid if there were no gratuities or if gratuities were taxed (which would probably not happen...), I think most would prefer to keep the gratuities. Say you have a $2.00 an hour raise to compensate for no tips, which I think you'll agree is fairly generous. Over an 8 hour shift, which generally includes a lunch and supper rush, you'll have netted $16 extra in income. That much can easily be made in sseven tables or so. And then some for the other x amount of tables served. Even with a ridiculously high $5/hr raise, it could be matched easily in tips.
And, of course, as you probably know, many people in this industry don't work 8 hour shifts. Lots work split shifts because during the afternoons things are slow and you don't need all that staff. But you need them for supper. So in reality they maybe work 4-5 hours and instead of $16 or $40, they make only $8 or $20. And any server worth the extra wage can clear that inside of an hour.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 18:39:42
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[quote]Originally posted by Dallas
[ Servers go from customer to customer with no real link between their work and their wages (unless all customers have good tip etiquette).
I know you didn't quite mean it in the fashion that I am going to veer it towards, Dallas. But this declaration is a prime example of the attitude that presents itself a great percent of the time between customer and server. I am a very courteous customer, and I expect the same from my server.
Let us not forget that in the profession of restaurant service, it basically is a Master and Servant situation. And in todays society, this psychological attitude remains at the zenith of the consumer consciousness. Nowhere else are we allowed to practice this inherent oddity of nature anymore, EXCEPT in food industry and retail industry...any public related industry, as a matter of fact...but with food it's primal. Our instincts are heightened, because our basic make-up is survival. And what is our fittest quilt sewn from? Hunting and eating. And how do we achieve that? Killing. Now, today, we are a bit more civilized (sort of). Instead of immediatly killing when hungry, we resort to rudeness...to get our way. Essentially, hunting.
It's a bizarre point, and maybe I'm way off topic now, but I think what I'm trying to say is that etiquette MUST work both ways in this line of business. Therefore, to say servers go from customer to customer with no real link between their work and their wages somewhat comes across as a server feels slighted by his/her employer...takes matters into his/her own hands without regard to discipline (except discipline designed by themself)...and feels that no matter what, the customer is gonna cheat them. All this before the curtain rises to reveal the scene.
Again Dallas, this is not a presumtion on my behalf of your talents as a server. I'm sure you are a wonderful server...but that qoute houses exactly what I read from a lot of servers. Biased without example, or perhaps, a sort of premeditation.
Tips are a gift. I dont go to a restauraunt to purchase food with the intent in mind to put someone through college...or help someone pay their credit card bill...or assist in day care...or medicine. No one does. And no one should be expected to consider this charity when they enter a food establishment. I go to fulfil a craving, and have a relaxing, and/or good time out. If my experience is a good one, BAM! 15%! If it is not...sorry, no tip. That's it. Bottom line.
Beforehand...To Insure Prompt Service.
Catchin' blue in his eyes that were brown
-bRIAN |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 06:56:46
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Trans - I am not a server at all. I'm a tipper in this equation. I was trying to say that the same great job by a server can generate completely different income from table to table. I would think that uncertainty would be a bummer to a server especially if you get the short end of the stick more often than not. Not being a server I could be wrong.
Interesting points on the master/server relationship. It is unique isnt it? |
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 17:51:18
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[quote]Originally posted by Dallas
Trans - I am not a server at all. I'm a tipper in this equation. I was trying to say that the same great job by a server can generate completely different income from table to table. I would think that uncertainty would be a bummer to a server especially if you get the short end of the stick more often than not.
Dallas, I am clearer now...sorry for mistaking you for a server. Not that serving is bad, mind you, but I misread and assumed you to still be one...and assumption is a terrible trait in behavior that I try most not to practice. However, I goofed, and I'm sorry.
I see your point regarding the server depending on the hope of different table attitudes being generous to the service. But I still feel, as with any job, uncertainty in reaction from people in general can never be fully forseen. All you can do is your best. And I think that you and I both recognize and reward good servers. Some do not. That is fully their choice in the matter. I will refuse to tip if for a second I have to consciously wrestle with the fact that a server is incompitent. I will give a few chances, and if it remains questionable to me, my decision to not reward is completely my right.
And good servers, like any good worker profession regardless, have honed abilities (without a doubt) which will probably 90% of the time win them their 15%...if not more. It's all how you own your job...not how uncertainties cloud your esteem.
Catchin' blue in his eyes that were brown
-bRIAN |
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