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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
 Posted - 11/19/2003 : 10:41:58
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I've heard this mentioned before but never really noticed any weaknesses. I just listened to The Toadies: Rubberneck and then popped in Devils Workshop and noticed a huge difference.
Does anyone else have a problem with the poor sound quality on FB's albums? Is it because of the 2-track method?
 "I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 10:57:26
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Put in the Toadies Pleather. Now that would be the poor sound quality poster child.
Thomas
"Our love is rice and beans and horses lard" |
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spoon
- FB Fan -
45 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 10:59:16
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Funny, I just made reference to this in an unrelated thead:
http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3915&whichpage=2
A couple of things come to mind here.
Just to cover all bases, when very loud (mostly newer) cds are compared to regular or even lower volume CDs, the "louder" CD is often perceived as sounding better. (Part of the "loudness war"). So this could be a possible difference, or at least something to consider overall, as Devil's Workshop, as an album, has attempted to retain it's dynamic range through maintaining a moderate average volume level.
I dont think Devil's Workshop sounds bad, but it does not sound as good as Pistolero and FB&C. This may have everything to do with FB doing it in his own studio which, arguably, is probably not as lavishly equipted as a full blown studio. But since all of the albums in question were recorded "straight to 2-track" we can rule out the method as being sonically inferior. (In fact, it is probably sonically superior to multi tracking to tape.) It probably has more to do with which 2-track got used for each album and what console they went thru...
Regards,
spoon |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 11:09:05
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i brought this up once and got some interesting responses about his recording methods .. how come search is broken? and how come the archives only go back a few months?
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 12:04:19
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I finally noticed the distortion that everyone's talking about on SMYT but I don't think on it or any of the other albums it's bad enough to really ruin the listening experience.
 "I joined the cult of Frank / and...umm..." |
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Itchload
= Cult of Ray =
USA
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 12:09:21
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| It really really doesn't bother me...I think teh albums sound great. Again, bands like The Fall and Guided by Voices have recorded albums with a much much worse fidelity, and those are still great as well. The Catholics are a raw rock n roll band, if Frank was making house techno and the albums sounded a little lo fi at points, that would be another thing, but as it stands I think its merely nitpicking. |
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john_farson
- FB Fan -
2 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 14:39:44
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The "live to 2-track" thing is more about engineering than anything else. Because everything is miked, effected, and mixed down to 2 channels, there isn't much post-recording shit going on. Engineers and mixers these days effect each track differently to get a fuller mix, duplicating channels to thicken up the sound, and then compressing the shit out of it, so everything sounds loud and even.
I think I saw something about a portable rig being used on SMYT, BLD, and DW, where FB&C and DITS were studio. I think there's a little too much bass, but other than that I like the mixes. That may be a mix level thing, where you need a little more bass when it's quieter. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 16:00:27
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I think its really refreshing to hear an album which isn't perfect, if you know what I mean. It sounds much more honest and less dull, if truth be told.
From a technical point of view, there's certainly sonic inconsistencies - take the beginning of Coastline for example - but thats what makes the music so lovable. In my humble opinion.
I remember an interview where FB said he wasn't doing live-to-2-track to get a raw, r'n'r sound, but more for the challenge. I think if you put a lot of today's bands in a room and told them to play through their song perfectly, they would fall apart almost instantly. It says something about the level of intuition and musicianship within the Catholics, and the sympathy of the engineer to the method.
Good on 'em.
 "I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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fumanbru
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1462 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 19:56:06
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i think it sounds great. it's all about the soul. plus it enables frank to come out with new albums every couple days. no fucking around in the studio.
"I joined the Cult of Frank/ and I got a free t-shirt with this dude on it." |
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freedom rocker
- FB Fan -
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 20:06:26
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If you want to hear a really rough album, listen to the Replacements debut "Sorry ma, forgot to take out the trash"
That may be the roughest album (since early 80's) i've ever heard.
the blues isn't an art-form, it's a product-- not unlike computer chips and tampons.
--dead milkmen |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 02:23:15
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FB, Replacements et al puts your White Stripes and friends to shame, which is nice to see.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 09:57:03
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I didn't really mean to say that I had a problem with the sound exactly, just that I'm finally able to pick out what people are talking about.
I'm all for the live recording and am a big fan of lo-fi music (I know franks cds aren't lo-fi, I'm just saying . . .)
It might be a little bit of the loudness factor that spoon mentioned but I don't think that's all.
Thomas, is Pleather really shitty quality? I've never been able to find it in stores and have been too lazy to order it.
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Kirk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 15:00:43
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I like the rough sound, and it's especially appropriate if you have it on vinyl record.
-Kirk |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 15:41:50
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Rough sound is good.
My mate told me the other day that he's gonna try and get a cheap copy of In Utero on vinyl, sandpaper it, and try and sell it on eBay as Steve Albini's original mix!
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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Edited by - Cheeseman1000 on 11/20/2003 15:42:23 |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 16:29:37
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They sound a-ok to me, but I'm no audiophile. I can hear the songs and rock out to them. That's all I need. I listen to mostly 60s and 70s music anyway and the production on the recent FB albums fits right in with that.
If you want high gloss big label production, I hear Celine Dion's got a lot of albums out. |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 15:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
Thomas, is Pleather really shitty quality? I've never been able to find it in stores and have been too lazy to order it.
[/i]
It is just very low. It is very noticable if you make a mix tape and add one of the songs from it. You will always have to turn up the volume when it comes on and then lower it when it is over. The songs that made it on Rubberneck; Mister Love, Happy Face & Possum Kingdom are all different versions on Pleather. The other three tracks are Got a Heart, Ruth and the hidden track dubbed "Cookout". Cookout is a live instrumental version of I Burn. If you're interested I have a CD a fan put together called 'Ultimate Toadies' of rare songs that were never released. I guarantee you will fall in love with 'Send You To Heaven'. Just say the word and I'll send you a copy.
Thomas
"Our love is rice and beans and horses lard" |
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DruggedBunny
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
395 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2003 : 05:53:20
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My God, listen to any cool rocking album from the 50s/60s/70s and the sound quality can be fairly poor by today's standards, or something like Muddy Waters doing Little Red Rooster -- but it fucking rocks, despite sounding like they're recording from inside a toilet! I couldn't give a tiny toss about the sound quality!
Clean and imperfection-free modern recordings bore me to death.
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2003 : 09:41:27
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I've had a similar experience with playing FB after another more pro sounding CD. As long as you stay in the FB realm, you don't really notice.
I wonder sometimes if they would be better off releasing fewer albums. Say for example, he took the best songs from BLD, DW, and SMYT and put them on one album that was recorded in a studio similar to how DITS was done. I know that us fanatics can't get enough of him, but imagine if he released just one undeniably great album a year. Don't you think he'd create a better buzz and fare better with pundits like Rolling Stone who have huge public forums with which to praise or denounce artists?
As for the distorion, as I said before, I think it's due to a poor listening environment where the engineer can't hear small details like that (say, some room in a warehouse?)
"Join the Cult of Clootie / and you'll get more booty!" www.mp3.com/clootie |
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spoon
- FB Fan -
45 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 09:29:12
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Thomas:
Yeah it is probably lower in volume than alot of newer CDs. That is a result of the loudness war in which many (labels and some artists) want their CD louder (or as loud) as so&so's. This keeps pushing the (average) levels up til the song basically loses most of it's dynamics and looks like a square wave. It is an interesting discussion that happens every so often in the tech-audio circles.
A great point was brought up that makes alot of sense: The film industry has two (sometimes 3) level standards that most everyone adhears to when setting audio levels for movies. He (Bob Katz) thought it bizaar how the audio industry did/does not embrace such a standard. At least at some level.
As an aside. There is no reason, regardless of which era rock music comes from, why you cannot have good/excellent sounding audio. Two of the best sounding albums of all time (production-wise) are from the '70s (Dark Side of the Moon and Hotel California).
I like raw Guided By Voices/Mendoza Line sounding records as much as the next guy. In some cases I think it adds to the impact of the song. However, wanting pristine sonics in the music I like should not be a bad thing. And it should not be associated as ONLY being available with big label productions. Like I posted previously, FB&C's first and Pistolero are excellent productions (maybe a touch too loud) equalling that of Doolittle and Bossanova.
Just some thoughts on the matter.
Anyway, yeah compilation CDs are a bear that way. Try putting really old material next to new stuff....YIKES. I remeber a comp I did where I put an old Sonic Youth track next to the Foo Fighters Everlong (which, BTW, is cut VERY LOUD...this really is like a square wave) WOW! Talk about jumping for the volume when Everlong really kicks in...
regards,
spoon |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 09:02:29
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ugh so much stupdity.
distortion is part of rock and roll, retards. live performance and recorded. if you don't like it, go listen to something else.
i think it really adds character to every album.
edit: ps - the toadies? blech. |
Edited by - Ebb Vicious on 11/25/2003 09:03:26 |
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Danishboy
- FB Fan -
Denmark
175 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 09:58:41
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I fell divided, if itīs live recording. Why not just released a live preformance??
I take what i can get, so no complains.
Man of steel |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 10:43:53
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my brother's retarded, ebb.
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 19:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
my brother's retarded, ebb.
congratulations. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 22:09:39
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well, making him retarded was and accomplishment
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 23:35:24
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The distortion we're talking about isn't at all 'good', but overloaded circuits (digital?) that results in an ugly loss of signal, rather than 'overdrive'.
In Nadine, you can hear it 11 seconds in, when he says 'toe'. This will ruin this part of the song for anyone...you start to notice it through the song and album. "That girl got skin" - 40 secs in...ouch.
You don't notice it as much in the busy parts tho, luckily.
Jaina - 26 secs in, the 'matter' in 'doesn't matter who you are'.
Horrible Day sounds really good tho, prolly my fav on the album. As are When Will Happiness and Heartache (shaker is off there..hehe..hard to play a solid shaker tho.)
Beginning of Coastline is really nice too..love the guitar...there ain't enough headroom on CD's, that's for damn sure, i'd love to hear that on SACD. The quieter parts are pretty sweet too..
That's my brief critical analysis of SMYT...it's got some of FB's best recording, but also some of the worst... |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 01:49:02
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i knew exactly what was being discussed and my opinion still stands.
why do you seem to think one form of distortion and signal degredation is better than another? because you've been taught to.
learn to embrace all the imperfections. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 02:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
ugh so much stupdity.
distortion is part of rock and roll, retards. live performance and recorded. if you don't like it, go listen to something else.
i think it really adds character to every album.
edit: ps - the toadies? blech.
Why do you assume that distortion is part of rock'n'roll? You are trying to lump distortion of, say, a guitar in with distortion of an entire track, where they are very different things.
Distortion on instruments adds tone, or character, or whatever, distortion on the track affects the listening quality, almost always adversely.
You're not making sense with your argument.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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spoon
- FB Fan -
45 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 08:47:40
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Hey there Ebb Vicious,
speaking on forms of distortion....
Dave Noisy thought the form of distortion on the latest album was possibly digital. I dont have that album yet so I dont know. However, it is widely agreed and accepted that digital clipping/distortion is not a pleasant form of distortion...at all. Rarely will it ever be disired (except maybe as an effect layered over an already heavily tweeked snare drum or something like that, for certain types of music). This is not something that has to be told to anyone...just one listen.
I am not talking about whether it's on an instrument or the entire song but more importantly the type of distortion.
Hope that clears up one part of the confusion.
spoon
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 11:14:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
i knew exactly what was being discussed and my opinion still stands.
why do you seem to think one form of distortion and signal degredation is better than another? because you've been taught to.
learn to embrace all the imperfections.
There are many types of distortion; analog tape distortion, digital distortion, and distortion of audio circuits to name a few. Digital distortion sounds like shit, while the other two are more pleasant. The reason for this is that digital distortion clips the top of the audio peak off like a pair of scissors, where as analog clips it more gradually; more like rounding it off. DITS has several places where it sounds like FB is overdriving a compressor, but it's not distracting and adds character. The distortion on SMYT is over the entire stereo mix and is very distracting to me when I listen with headphones. To me it's like trying to watch a great film when there's a hair stuck in the lens of the projector.
Since this sounds digital, then probably mastering is to blame and FB did not intend it artistically, rather it happened because they hired a cheap mastering engineer.
I don't think anyone here would be fans of Catholic era Frank Black if we didn't embrace imperfection. I realize the pickiness of this distortion topic, but seeing how this is the second thread on this subject, it seems like people think it's important.
"Join the Cult of Clootie / and you'll get more booty!" www.mp3.com/clootie |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 14:22:12
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| Aye, for me it comes down to this: the distortion that's occuring is no way musical, and i'm very doubtful that it's in any way intended or desired. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 18:23:44
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intended or not, imperfections are part of live and recorded performances.
digital distortion is not used in music? oi.. why do i even bother. poor narrow minded folks. |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 18:59:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Jaina - 26 secs in, the 'matter' in 'doesn't matter who you are'.
Yikes! It's like an electronic fart in the background.
This sort of noise might sound okay on, say, early recordings by The Fall, but it's a little out of place on this album.
--edit--
But then again, I didn't notice it until Dave pointed it out. |
Edited by - BLT on 11/26/2003 22:49:06 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 23:10:55
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speaking of not noticing things before and then not being able not to notice.. i can never NOT notice the audio drop out on one of the channels in Jane (at about 1:04 i believe).. if whoever pointed that out hadn't pointed that out, i probably wouldn't have picked it up.
thanks for ruining my life (whoever that was). |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2003 : 01:37:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
intended or not, imperfections are part of live and recorded performances.
digital distortion is not used in music? oi.. why do i even bother. poor narrow minded folks.
Did anyone actually say that it was never used at all? Read Spoon's post again.
Trust me when I say that digital distortion is not, in general, a desirable effect. The clipping creates a distortion that is far from musical, and would be especially out of place with an artist such as Frank Black, whose music is more in the old-timey style.
Of course it can be implemented: anything can be used and abused in music.
"What are we going to do tonight, Brain?"
"Same thing we do every night, Pinky: try to take over the world!" |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2003 : 09:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
digital distortion is not used in music? oi.. why do i even bother. poor narrow minded folks.
Maybe BJORK uses it, but on country / roots music (which SMYT mostly is) - I don't think so. Perhaps some post modern minded troubadour like Stephen Merrit could get away with using digital clipping in a country song, but you have to admit that artistically using digital distortion is not the M.O. of SMYT.
"Join the Cult of Clootie / and you'll get more booty!" www.mp3.com/clootie |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2003 : 14:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
i can never NOT notice the audio drop out on one of the channels in Jane (at about 1:04 i believe)..
That's part of rock and roll, too, isn't it?
Actually that's one I noticed without any help, though I'm not the one who pointed it out to you. |
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