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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2003 : 20:52:14
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Has anyone been following this interesting technological development?
If memory serves me, the retail enormity Wal-Mart has been using this for quite a while now. Apparently the US military may begin doing the same:
http://rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/609/1/1/
I heard on the radio recently (within the last 2 months or so) that in Europe, Bennetton went through a suit battle with its customers after they placed RFID tags in clothing without informing the customers. The customers found out, then Benetton claimed that it was just a test and that the devices were expired after they had left the store. I believe it was a whistleblower that informed the media there that the company had lied, and that the items were still being tracked. As a result of the court battle, they supposedly are not using the devices at this time.
I'm no luddite, and I don't believe that technology is inherently dangerous, but this does raise the specter of the words of Marshall Mcluhan and George Orwell in my mind, not to mention others' literary "cautionary tales". What suggestions would you have for keeping a technology like this in check, or should it be? What kind of governing/judicial body should hold jurisdiction on a concept like this, when it is used by a sovereign country's military or an international corporation? I'm curious how others on this forum feel about this technology, or what information you may have come across...
Where are we going?
Planet ten!
When?
Real soon!! |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 20:58:50
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I've been following RFID on a somewhat passive basis. It's a technology which can very easily be abused...I don't think there are any benefits to this technology that are worth more than the risk of abuse.
 "I joined the Cult of Clops / If I were you, I'd sleep with one eye open." |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 22:21:05
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Ahh..my dearest lady-nerd..
I agree that RFID is bad news. The latest potential app is library books...eeek.. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 22:29:32
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Holy crap - Of course! Library books. As the poor dear librarians have been putting up quite a good fight over privacy issues and the "Patriot" act. Just wonderful.
This strikes me as a good microcosm of the challenges that face and mostly overwhelm all of us on a daily basis. Anybody have any thoughts on how this can be curtailed? It seems so far at least 3 of us are in agreement - waddya think should be done? What powers do US/World citizens have? It's not like we here in the States can get Congress to declare it illegal - it's already hit the markets, and at that point, courts need proof of a negative effect...
Where are we going?
Planet ten!
When?
Real soon!! |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 23:19:26
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Actually, my 4th year design project was to develop an RF-ID system for monitoring bird nesting patterns in BC. The thing is, that Benneton could really only track you inside their store. Or rather, they could know that you were in the store if you were wearing one of their shirts. As soon as you leave, it's useless. The little tags are passive, meaning that they are not powered, but actually get their power from signals directed at them - which is why they're often called transponders. Meaning that they will last for a really long time, but only within a very close range of their antennas. We were able to get an 8cm range from our battery powered antenna, but large non-power sensitive applications have thus far barely managed to clear a meter.
Benefits? Convenience. Instead of watching hours of tape, trekking through the forest for hours to change tapes every day or two, etc, not to mention hauling all these tapes around, the researcher can go every couple weeks, swap the smart card, and save time and money. Not to mention sitting through tapes, errors in differentiating birds, etc. That's one example.
Inventories in stores done as fast as walking through the aisles once. Anti-theft protection. Automatic parking applications. There's talk of them replacing the UPC code eventually. They are going to be huge. And there's no really good reason to stop the technology. There are bad/privacy invasion applicatinos, yes, but there are tonnes of good applications, and the potential damage to privacy is so minimal it's hardly worth discussing. There are bad applications for knives, cell phones, hell, the internet, but should such a thing be banned as a result?
Anyway, maybe the problem is a lack of understanding. Basically, it's a little antenna with a memory. That memory stores a unique ID number, usually at least 12 bits plus x amount for non-writable information. That's it. A number like "294785".
The RF-ID does not broadcast. It responds to a magnetic field generated by an antenna tuned to the same frequency as the RF-ID, like a transformer. Then, the antenna shuts off, and the RF-ID tag broadcasts that number for about 15 ms before it is no longer powered.
The biggest potential concern to your privacy is that if clothing or portable products had RF-IDs and all stores had an RF-ID scanner as part of their security, that store would know that someone walked in with a Benneton shirt or Nike shoes. No idea who, nor anything else about them, not even location. Granted, you could attempt to triangulate something with multiple transmitters, but it would be difficult and inaccurate.
Someone could take it to the next level and say that a van could drive by your home with a powerful antenna and know exactly what products you have, but that would be impossible for the simple reason that the signal sent back from the RFID tags embedded in these future products is limited by physical size and will likely never exceed 2 meters.
So hopefully that allays some fears. I'd love to answer any questions about RFID or take your scathing rebuttals. Either way. :)
 "Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 23:45:59
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I know this is missing the point but I want to know more about how this was being used in the birds. I do work in this kind of area an like to try to keep up with how new technology can be used for some of my research questions. What was the setup? Birds were given unique transponders and in each nest there was an antenna that would trigger the transponders. Then the id of the bird visiting the nest was recorded on a smartcard. Is this correct? How large are these transponders? Are they currently expensive? Was this done with someone at UBC?
Wow, I may actually be getting some work done while cruising frankblack.net. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 00:01:35
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That's absolutely correct, darwin. Antenna in the nest, unique transponder attached to each bird's leg, and then software that gave attributes (male/female, nestling/adult, etc) to each ID so that the data could be itemized. The researcher was actually an ornitholoigst from here at the University of Saskatchewan that travels to BC to monitor the Northern Flicker. I think she might have been behind a recent study of bird hanky panky that you may have heard about.
Anyway, the transponders are tiny... the ones we used were 1.5 mm thick, probably 5mm wide and no more than 10 long. Weighed much less than a gram, and very durable, so no problems with hindering the bird or destroying the transponder. We also saw some that could be injected under the skin of the bird to avoid the problems with leg tags, but didn't go that route.
The system is currently only available commercially through a university in Sweden I believe, and is quite expensive through them. I think they're charging like $10,000 We were able to do it for $50/nest though we only got to the working prototype phase and never did finish development. We looked into it but were told there's not much market for it, so we left it alone. I'd be interested in hearing if you agree. We'd have some major mods to do before commercial release, but we've already proven it.
The transponders themselves cost $3.00 each in singular quantities, I believe, though that price is definitely going to be lower now.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 08:00:33
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Wow, COF, thanks for your knowledgeable response - Whoa!
I didn't realize the id tags were latent (transponders), and that their response range was so limited - makes sense though. Maybe this was the wrong tree to be barking up as a sample of technology possibly invading privacy, I hope that's the case, anyway. Though, I wonder why the court case went against Bennetton? I'm mostly concerned about the soft mingling of technology into private space, and the centralization of citizen information. Seeing the way our own representatives "handle" issues such as telemarketers, SPAM, internet law and taxing, it worries me considerably.
I am very intrigued by that project you worked on - I am an amateur birder, and used to work in a raptor rehab program, and I dream of starting my own program someday in the distant future. Do either of you know if the people who helped film "Winged Migration" used such devices? It seems they would have had to, as they followed the same flocks over the migration seasons. Do you have a suggestion for further reading on RFID?
Where are we going?
Planet ten!
When?
Real soon!! |
Edited by - apl4eris on 10/15/2003 08:01:51 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 08:55:26
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I actually have no idea with regards to Winged Migration, but it's possible. But couldn't they have also done it with tagging?
As for suggested readings, unfortunately most of my knowledge comes from very technical sources such as transponder datasheets, etc, plus my own work with this. As well, some friends of mine worked on a similar system for building security using an RF-ID card to open locks and so forth, so I learned a lot about larger scale versions from their work. I'm sure there either are or will be a lot of material covering RF-ID coming soon but I can't even recommend a single good source right now. :( Sorry.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 10:28:19
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Weird. Just heard a segment on NPR about tunnel diodes (Esaki diodes), and their possible use for low-power (negative resistance) amplification of RF signals, one use being in RFID....Do you think this would make the widespread use of RFID a little more squirrely, as the technology seems to already be adapting quickly to overcome the barriers of signal emission strength?
If you guys are interested, I found a couple interesting articles, including an old European patent application report, though I am only a pinkie little novice, I have been wanting to learn about this for a while - thanks for the responses!:
http://www.eetimes.com/special/special_issues/millennium/milestones/holonyak.html
patent application report, in pdf:
http://legal.european-patent-office.org/dg3/pdf/t990731eu1.pdf
and:
http://amsacta.cib.unibo.it/archive/00000073/
I'm still curious about what any of you think/feel about issues like centralized databases for citizen information.
"There are bad applications for knives, cell phones, hell, the internet, but should such a thing be banned as a result?" -COF
No, but I don't feel that that's an end to the argument. Obviously anything can be abused, but unlike a knife or a gun, or even a social security number, technologies are branching into a new territory where the effects will not be known about/seen/actionable by the general public. The way to defend yourself against a man with a gun is through the use of your own weapons, either self-defense tactics or another gun, etc. Or through the courts, where it is assumed everyone knows the basics and implications of what a gun is, they understand the technology and its possible uses and abuses. You can see the gun, it is a singular gun, it is not being pointed invisibly at an entire populace. With technology as it is now, and in the near future, the public has less and less power to respond...
Is it a fool's game to argue US Constitutionally granted privacy rights with Canadians? ;) jk!
Just read this over...Whoa, sorry for the rant there! Trust me, I'm not an anti-tech kook - I love the stuff, I just think it deserves public discourse and stringent investigation.
John Bigboote! Look! They have Sweet n Low! |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 13:20:35
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Well, using a tunneling diode as opposed to two schotkeys across the antenna is an interesting idea and would have a great impact on the return distance of the transponder provided that it could be fabricated so that the thresholds are proper and that not too much bias voltage is needed. Though I am familiar with the phenomena of tunneling and even a little with tunneling diodes, I've never seen nor used one, so I couldn't say one way or the other how much of a benefit, but I think it's clear there would be one. Especially given the fast switching times and potential RF amplification. But I neither claim to be nor am an expert on quantum anything. At least not yet. :)
As for the rebuttal to my argument, I never intended that to be the end of the argument, but just to make the point that many things have purposes for good and evil and that leaves us with two options:
1) Ban the device entirely. This I'm against. Maybe it IS a Canadian mentality that people shouldn't have all power taken from them under the guise of preventing them from doing evil. I'm not saying you're suggesting this, but I think that's what's at the core of banning something entirely. Unless there are no good uses for a device (don't get me started on guns, please :)), then we have to weigh whether the good uses are enough to risk the bad ones.
2) Allow production/use, but penalize misuse. True, this means that a wrong has to be committed against someone before they can be stopped, but this is how much of our society operates currently. We're given licenses, for example, based on our ability to drive by the rules. After that, we may keep that privilige until we abuse it by drinking, driving recklessly, etc.
Now, in Canada right now, there is a big debate over national identity cards and a centralized database for all Canadians, etc, etc. I don't like it. Logistically, it's putting all the eggs in one basket, and I'm not sure where the benefits are. Show me benefits that justify the potential risks of someone gaining access to 35 million peoples' personal information by hacking into one single database and then we can talk about that. Like I've said, there has to be some good from it to make it justifiable.
What do YOU think? I love discussion of this sort of stuff, though I sometimes come off as condescending or even upset though I'm not. So if it appears this way, it's just the way I make my points and I apologize in advance. Please, debate on!
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 13:57:23
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i love these posts. i don't understand a word, and everyone sounds so intelligent.
but i know they're not. wow.;)
"Trippy"-Carolynanna |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:02:23
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Wow, first she ditches my cult and then calls me a "big-stupid-doo-doo-head". That hurts.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:03:23
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| What is that now, Nerd Alert #3? |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:04:17
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It's a new day, come on! A little slack.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:11:03
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Actually, I think that was #4, but who's counting? ;)
I'm not so intelligent, though,
I just stole all of my posts from a Bazooka Joe wrapper.
John Bigboote! Look! They have Sweet n Low! |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:20:14
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Doesn't the counter start over at midnight? Please?!
And you're lucky - all my Bazooka Joe's are about him dressing up a broom as a girl. I hate that broom SO much!
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
Edited by - Cult_Of_Frank on 10/15/2003 14:22:27 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:22:11
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Maybe nerdliness should be measured more like a thermometer, if you will.... kinda like the Doomsday Clock. I would say that, right now, you're at about 10:30*..heheheheheh!
John Bigboote! Look! They have Sweet n Low!
*Edit: removed the PM - ain't no Post Meridiem in Doomland.... |
Edited by - apl4eris on 10/15/2003 14:26:46 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:28:12
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As long as I've still got room for my nerdiness to pay off. An hour and a half is a lot of play time.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:30:14
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mmm...doomsday...
"I joined the Cult of Trippy/ but i got no icon cos stupid Dean won't tell me how to make one" |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:31:25
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Wow, who'da thunk Dean worked with RFID's? hehe..
I haven't really read much on this, but as i understand it, there *is* a lot of questions for personal security.
If RFID's became commonplace, there'd be a system in place to track them *everywhere*. At this current time, you'd only have a unique identifier stuck in there, so they'd know all the transbonded (ha - is that a new term?) items you're carrying. Shoes, clothing, backpack, librarybooks, etc..
That's a lot of info for a store to gain as you walk in the door. And of course, it's a total invasion of your privacy.
The next step is the future - will they always be passive? How long until we see r/w and interactive RFID tags?
And, of course, they'll extend the possible range of them.
I don't want *anyone* to be able to find out what buildings i've been in on any given day - which is what this would allow, which is probably the biggest concern.
I think RFID's have good potential uses..but not in the commercial marketplace. imo of course. =)
How's that Jessie? Not too techy. =) |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 14:37:31
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wha???
"I joined the Cult of Trippy/ but i got no icon cos stupid Dean won't tell me how to make one" |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 15:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Wow, who'da thunk Dean worked with RFID's? hehe..
I haven't really read much on this, but as i understand it, there *is* a lot of questions for personal security.
If RFID's became commonplace, there'd be a system in place to track them *everywhere*. At this current time, you'd only have a unique identifier stuck in there, so they'd know all the transbonded (ha - is that a new term?) items you're carrying. Shoes, clothing, backpack, librarybooks, etc..
That's a lot of info for a store to gain as you walk in the door. And of course, it's a total invasion of your privacy.
The next step is the future - will they always be passive? How long until we see r/w and interactive RFID tags?
And, of course, they'll extend the possible range of them.
I don't want *anyone* to be able to find out what buildings i've been in on any given day - which is what this would allow, which is probably the biggest concern.
I think RFID's have good potential uses..but not in the commercial marketplace. imo of course. =)
How's that Jessie? Not too techy. =)
You're right that as these things become more common then there will be more transceivers, but in the end, unless you have - god forbid - an RF-ID ID, which presumably would be a different frequency and encryption, they have no idea who walked into the store with the said goods, just that those goods have entered their store.
There is a move for killable transponders which would be deactivated on purchase like things are demagnetized today. But the question here is, how would you know for sure?
There are writable transponders now, and perhaps they will even be air-writable one day. THAT is when this whole concept starts to get a little hairy. Then you could be carrying whatever information someone wants. But making them air-writable would make them next to useless since anyone could do it unless it was a specialized chip in which case, there's no real danger, but there are some bad possibilities.
But they will always be passive. I guarantee that. Powering them internally is something we're at _least_ 30 years away from doing at the sizes that most of these transponders will be at. So that's some reassurance.
We need to keep an eye on technologies like this and understand the possible ramifications, as well as benefits. It could be used for good or for awesome. Or evil. It's up to us as citizens, consumers, and people to prevent the latter.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 15:06:37
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i agree.
totally.
i suppose if i have nothing to say i should just go, right?
"I joined the Cult of Trippy/ but i got no icon cos stupid Dean won't tell me how to make one" |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 15:36:42
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umm...could someone please explain what RFID is without me having to read all this
" / " |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 15:50:46
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Sure, no prob! :) It stands for Radio Frequency Identification Device. A little chip gizmo that when "scanned" or queried at a particular frequency, emits a signal announcing its identity and also its location. (Hope I did it justice, COF! ;))
This technology is used in things like pet identification (if they get lost, etc.) to tracking of wild animals (as COF and Darwin talk about up there yonder in the thread) and merchandise, or for security purposes.
Here's a link I just found from a google, on howstuffworks.com
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question690.htm
John Bigboote! Look! They have Sweet n Low! |
Edited by - apl4eris on 10/15/2003 15:58:29 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 15:53:18
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Sounds good to me, apl, 'cept there's no information about the location, just whatever happens to be stored on the gizmo when it was manufactured/programmed.
I like the word gizmo. It's cute.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 16:00:54
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Well, I shoulda said what I was going to - it doesn't announce its location, but the subject querying the tag would be able to discover its location when it responds, wouldn't it? Dangit, do I have all this bassackwards? What a maroon I am! :P
John Bigboote! Look! They have Sweet n Low! |
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