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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2003 : 15:17:53
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Is there Zen in Frank Black's music?
A koan (intentional or not) in some of his lyrics as well? I found out recently that composers have been making whole arrangements based on koan structure - sounds pretty whacked to me, and I like it. I'm no music theorist, so I can't tell if he's ever played with this or not. So, anybody else see the Zen in Frank?
If nothing else, as Yossarian says in Catch-22, "Oh well, what the hell!", let's get with the Frank Black haiku! Maybe they could be from lyrics or his many and varied ideas and references, or your own observations on Frankness...
(DITS & Robert Onion)
"Where the water glows,
zugzwang got me in a way
nowhere in this world"
"Toynbee ideas in Kubrick's 2001 resurrect dead on planet Jupiter"
-Unknown |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2003 : 17:20:38
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Shoot, no bites so far on my first topic. Any suggestions are welcome...
Anybody out there interested in any of this at all?
If you hate this topic, please shoot it down. I feel stupid.  |
Edited by - apl4eris on 09/23/2003 19:07:08 |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2003 : 19:18:11
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Do not feel stupid my dear. You have presented us with many interesting ideas here. Allow a moment for it to sink in among the denizens of this board, and I'm sure a plethora of reply's will soon follow. I, personally, have always seen the Tao of Frank. It has guided me well.
 ixies |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2003 : 19:48:32
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Me no smart enuff to know such tings.
apl4eris, what in the name of Skeletor does your signature mean?! I like 'cause it mentions Kubrick, 2001, and Jupiter. (Yeah I'm a sci-fi dork.)
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Douglas Adams |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2003 : 19:52:24
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Thanks very much speedy for your encouragement.:) I was beginning to wonder if I'd finally fallen off my rocker.
Maybe a koan would be useful to start things off, in honor of "Everything is New",
"Everything Is Best"
When Banzan was walking through a market he overheard a conversation between a butcher and his customer.
"Give me the best piece of meat you have," said the customer.
"Everything in my shop is the best," replied the butcher. "You cannot find here any piece of meat that is not the best."
At these words Banzan became enlightened.
"Toynbee ideas in Kubrick's 2001 resurrect dead on planet Jupiter"
-Unknown |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2003 : 20:04:54
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I too love the movie, "2001", and all of Kubrick's and Arthur C. Clark's works.
Oh yes! the Toynbee quote. Very strange thing, that. Apparently, some mysterious person has been, for the last few decades, placing cryptic tiles, unseen, in the middle of intersections all over the country (US) and even in South America in a few countries. The quote in my sig is from those tiles. Toynbee was an historian, who happened to link history of human cultural/social changes to changes in religion. If you remember in 2001, they were on route to Jupiter to try to discover the monoliths' intentions. This topic came up recently on
www.slashdot.org
the topic is at this link:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/08/147256&mode=thread&tid=134&tid=160
If you are truly a sci-fi dork, you will either already have known about that site, or will love it when you do visit.
more on Toynbee Tiles is compiled here - there may be one in your town!:
www.toynbee.net
I am thouroughly intrigued. It is weird. BTW, I really enjoy your sig. 42 has been my favorite number (after 23!) for years, now. That quote is super!
"Toynbee ideas in Kubrick's 2001 resurrect dead on planet Jupiter"
-Unknown |
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Kozaru
- FB Fan -
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2003 : 22:01:34
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A Haiku is not
necessary however
I do like Frank Black.
:)
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2003 : 09:30:46
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there is definitely a method at work in blacks' writing
-the beauty of it would have to be the way he tells a story
yet with a certain subconscious/abstract flow that to others seems
cryptic(which is probably why people often ask 'what does this mean/relate
to' etc.), yet has evolved to seem less cryptic without sacrificing the
method of creation. he really does crank out the songs or poetry
as he calls the lyrical part. it seems to me that it has always
revolved around a japanese style which marries story-telling with music.
once you enter this realm you either progress to a sublime level of craftsmanship
or chase your tail trying to fit square words into round holes.
FB has seemingly found the higher plateau when it comes to his craft it seems to me
as even as the songs are seemingly straightforward -they are loaded with flourishes
that energize the listener. the key to his being so good seems to be that he was
hot on to this technique early on and found he could tap into a sweet place to let go
and just organize what comes from within to what we hear comes out.
the whole live recording thing (and apparrantly it goes as far as a song being recorded
within minutes of writing)is probably a necessary progression away from what stagnates
the pure form of this art.
as far as 'zen' or 'haiku' i feel that if it looks and tastes like it-it is it.
different cultures have evolved similar paths before without being side by side.
Kubrick was great, did you ever read the book about his correponding with A.C.Clarke
and how they created the script of 2001 S.O.?
-i realy like 'eyes wide shut', R.A. Wilson all over it.
you (apl4eris) sound more learned in the japanese cultural forms and i admire that
-read 'the man in the high castle' by P.K.Dick -the premise is that japan and Germany
won world war two and how the world progressed from that point,
-it is simply an amazing book that makes you wonder about existance and it's many
paths.
R |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2003 : 14:26:55
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quote:
Originally posted by blarg007
...revolved around a japanese style which marries story-telling with music.
once you enter this realm you either progress to a sublime level of craftsmanship
or chase your tail trying to fit square words into round holes.
FB has seemingly found the higher plateau when it comes to his craft...
R
Well put, there, blarg.
I guess I wasn't so much asking if there -was- zen, but was interested in trying to explore in a fun and creative way, his messages, thought processes, etc.. Maybe through haiku, maybe through paradox riddles, or koans, or talking about how he develops his music and lyrical meter. Or anything even remotely related.
Man, I hope the topic doesn't make people think we're all sittin here contemplating our navels.
I want to go back
to fifty five ten before
i was burned alive
---
Kubrick was an amazing filmaker. No, I have not read the book of those corespondences - I would like to soon, however. R. A. Wilson? Love the Illuminatus Trilogy and his other stuff. Though you can probably tell that from my name...
I just discovered Philip K. Dick a couple years ago. I had seen Bladerunner a gazillion times, but never read "...Electric Sheep" until 2 years ago, then "A Scanner Darkly". WOW! I willbe getting back around to reading more of his work - I will make sure to put your suggestion at the top of my list!
NO SALESPERSON MAY LEAVE THE FLOOR OR GO TO THE DOOR WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF A SUPERIOR.
-THE MGT.
"Toynbee ideas in Kubrick's 2001 resurrect dead on planet Jupiter"
-Unknown |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2003 : 10:55:15
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i've heard of the tile thing and Banzan but check this out:
i just got a good laugh at myself for my reply here
am i nuts? or is it funny? (second one)
http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3205
don't answer that... |
Edited by - blarg007 on 09/25/2003 10:57:53 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2003 : 13:18:36
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ummm, "I think...both."
;)
BTW, sounds like a barrel of fun, maybe even with monkeys in the mix.
oops, I guess I anwered that. sorry!
"Toynbee ideas in Kubrick's 2001 resurrect dead on planet Jupiter"
-Unknown |
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killmocker
- FB Fan -
Japan
41 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 08:41:50
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This goes back to the Pixies-
I don't know if you are looking for Zen thought and Haiku strictly w/Frank Black (then again the man is the same underneath
the band).
The lyrics for Hang Wire are in Haiku form. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 12:59:24
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Hey - thanks for that, killmocker!
I really hadn't explored this to that era (the Pixies works) yet. This points directly to the probability that any insights I may seem to have are total shots in the dark. But it's fun to trip over things like this. Too funny. Now I understand why these lyrics always hooked into me so strangely.
they're going higher
wind is whistling on the barbs
your head's a hammer
....
that man is a liar
the day is like a warm night
salt rusts the cold line
Do you happen to know about music composition based on koan structure? I'm very intrigued, but don't know quite where to start, as I am ignorant of music theory...
The book that partially inspired the koan thread was "Godel, Escher, Bach, an Eternal Golden Braid". I am still looking for the Geometric code ;). haha on me.
"That's not what I ordered. I ordered an opera. This is a potato print." --Laurie Anderson |
Edited by - apl4eris on 09/30/2003 13:00:54 |
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killmocker
- FB Fan -
Japan
41 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 07:53:34
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As far as koan structure in music goes-here are my thoughts. I don't think knowledge of music theory is necessary to understand this....
A koan is NOT simply just a riddle or paradox. There is meaning in it but no one answer. Supposedly it is meant to make one think in a manner in that they may eventually grasp the ultimate nature of the universe and become enlightened. So how can it fit in with music?
Some music has no limits to its interpretation
-just like a koan.
Also, music can make people think differently and gravitate closer to enlightenment. I know Frank's music did just that to me!
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 08:27:57
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that is pretty right on. i think of his work lyrically as a whole
that includes the pixies stuff. not that it is what was meant but i have noticed that
wether subconscience or not when i don't read his lyrics and mis-interpret what i am
hearing i often get as substantial and poignant ideas as if i had every word correct.
i think it is akin to a random selective subconscious process not far off from theories
of chaos/synchronicity in the form of an aural story.
i think what i am saying is that he is a better lyricist/poet than even he can imagine because his technique taps into something that has inspired the greatest art/philosophy that he uses
in minimal yet potent bursts.
the byproduct being that without paying much attention upon listening you get
a subconscious connection to unlimited possibilities of thought that pertains to what the conscious hears.
it rocks.
strangledhairingbonepants |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/01/2003 08:28:59 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 09:54:36
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killmocker-
(I just fought the urge to type killdozer...)
I will do my best to find some material on this - I have had a similar experience w/FB's music - I used to play the Pixies as a catalyst when I worked in the studio, and FB to this day is breaking new ground and pointing the way to new perspectives for me. "St. Francis Dam Disaster" helped me to create a piece about the "Big Four Bridge" (which is an old railroad bridge that has been out of commission for years, on the Ohio River in Ky), alchemy, and Yucca Mountain...
I can't think of many people in music that are quite as inspirational for me in such a deep way, other than Laurie Anderson, but she definitely is more a performance artist, not really the best musician!
blarg-
whoa. I think you lost me there! Or maybe you didn't? I like what you said a lot, but I feel dizzy...;) BTW, have you read "Godel, Escher, Bach, an Eternal Golden Braid"? Given your predilection for P. K. Dick, I have a feeling you would appreciate it quite a bit.
-------------------------
I wonder what others think of his recent lyrics, and even his musical stylings, which seem much less stream-of-consciousness, riddle-laden, and philosophically quirky (some have called it "art-rock"), and much more self-conscious(spatially) and bordering on the Western ballad cliche (for good or bad, I'm still not sure how I feel about SMYT). I think he said recently in an interview that his next challenge for himself was to take on one of his biggest fears - the cliche?
Paradise is exactly like where you are right now... only much, much...better.
Laurie Anderson |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
killmocker-
(I just fought the urge to type killdozer...)
I will do my best to find some material on this - I have had a similar experience w/FB's music - I used to play the Pixies as a catalyst when I worked in the studio, and FB to this day is breaking new ground and pointing the way to new perspectives for me. "St. Francis Dam Disaster" helped me to create a piece about the "Big Four Bridge" (which is an old railroad bridge that has been out of commission for years, on the Ohio River in Ky), alchemy, and Yucca Mountain...
I can't think of many people in music that are quite as inspirational for me in such a deep way, other than Laurie Anderson, but she definitely is more a performance artist, not really the best musician!
blarg-
whoa. I think you lost me there! Or maybe you didn't? I like what you said a lot, but I feel dizzy...;) BTW, have you read "Godel, Escher, Bach, an Eternal Golden Braid"? Given your predilection for P. K. Dick, I have a feeling you would appreciate it quite a bit.
-------------------------
I wonder what others think of his recent lyrics, and even his musical stylings, which seem much less stream-of-consciousness, riddle-laden, and philosophically quirky (some have called it "art-rock"), and much more self-conscious(spatially) and bordering on the Western ballad cliche (for good or bad, I'm still not sure how I feel about SMYT). I think he said recently in an interview that his next challenge for himself was to take on one of his biggest fears - the cliche?
Paradise is exactly like where you are right now... only much, much...better.
Laurie Anderson
he is certainly tackling the cliche.
yeah i lost myself for a second there but it does touch on something profound i think -i'm at a loss time wise to flesh it out i guess.
i really am fascinated with PKD's life and philosophical musings
-his biography by Lawrence Sutin is fascinating -i have read probably every published word of his at this point(PKD not Sutin).
and i am still going through a book of collected letters and writings
-he was compeletely fascinated with religious philosophy and 'what
is real' in general - especially his later works reflect this.
i have not read that but i am hungry for something to read lately
so will check it out - maybe give me a clue as to what exactly i am looking for (by whom when published etc.)
-are you a david lynch fan?
strangledhatdice |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/01/2003 10:04:32 |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:05:54
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KILLDOZER !-now there is a real film...
strangecathairairboots |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/01/2003 10:06:42 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:12:33
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Hellz-ya to the Lynch! Very long time fan. What's you favorite of his?
The book is "Godel, Escher, Bach, an Eternal Golden Braid", written by Douglas R. Hofstadter. I have the 20-th anniversary edition in paperback, by Basic Books, Inc., orig. published in 1979. ISBN: 0-465-02656-7
It covers so much, it could be just about -anywhere- in your bookstore, philosophy, science, math, metaphysics, music - you might just want to ask at the counter where they put it...
Paradise is exactly like where you are right now... only much, much...better.
Laurie Anderson |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:14:08
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quote:
Originally posted by blarg007
KILLDOZER !-now there is a real film...
strangecathairairboots
AND a fairly good old band from the south - which came after, of course!;)
Paradise is exactly like where you are right now... only much, much...better.
Laurie Anderson |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:18:55
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i must say i actually like lost highway -it actually forms
a kind of closure(at least for lynch)that puts a smile on your face
despite the graveness of the subject matter.
in all actuality i have a hard time picking a top fave.
Mullholland drive is breathtakingly beautiful so let's just say that is it.
yeah i heard of the band but that killdozer movie
is a timeless classic.
strangehairpiece in the form of dice |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/01/2003 10:21:50 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:22:45
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I love all of his movies, Blue Velvet and eraserhead remain my faves for some reason, but Twin Peaks (first season) still grabs me in a way the movies don't - possibly because there was so much more time for the stories to develop and sink in? Did you ever have any idea what the hell that tatoo meant in Highway?
Yeah - I need to see Killdozer again...it -is- getting close to Halloween, that's as good excuse as any - hurray! Did you hear they are going to do a remake of Texas Chainsaw Massacre? Sacriledge (sp?).
Paradise is exactly like where you are right now... only much, much...better.
Laurie Anderson |
Edited by - apl4eris on 10/01/2003 10:26:34 |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:26:04
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P.S. ya gotta check out the 'dumbland' cartoons that lynch does
-you can watch two of 'em for free at shockwave.com.
last i checked he has 8 or 9 done -on his website.
but you gotta subscribe.
this is somewhat related and yes i am frustratingly fixated on seeing a proper film made about frank & the caths: David Lynch could make a film about frank black and the catholics
and it would be awesome 'nuff said.
'yes, thats a human ear...' |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/01/2003 10:26:59 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:28:12
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true. very true. he would make the perfect director. I had no idea about those cartoons -
I will check it out - thanks very much!
Paradise is exactly like where you are right now... only much, much...better.
Laurie Anderson |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:37:13
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twin peaks did bring back my fascination for trees -i spent my formative years
in the desert for cryin' out loud.
i couldn't think of a better place to hang out than twin peaks,
imagine hanging out with big ed?
my favorite part is when he tells the story about how he shot nadine's eye
out -it's such a tear jerker but you almost laugh.
that was around the beginning of the second season, first or second episode.
..i think i will move to portland...
strangecatchphraseoftheday |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/01/2003 10:37:54 |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:44:39
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...did you know that some of the writers from twin peaks eventually
revealed that Lynch's plan story wise was that BOB, the dwarf and mike
(the one armed man who looks suspiciously like phil dick)were written
up as and eventually to be revealed as aliens from a 'planet of corn'
-and that is why lynch's son shows the corn in his hands in FWWM.
i think there were other corn references also.
flatduojets? |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/01/2003 10:45:27 |
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killmocker
- FB Fan -
Japan
41 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 11:29:39
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Yeah David Lynch!
Hey Apl4eris,
Call me Killdozer if you want, I don't care.
I never saw the movie, and my screen name wasn't inspired by it or anything. What exactly is Godel, Escher, Bach, an Eternal Golden Braid about? I don't know Godel but I assume Escher is MC Escher? That guy made some mind warping art. Of course everyone knows Bach. Does this book show a common link between the three? |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 11:50:11
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ok - you got it, killdozer! ...But, where -did- you get your sn?
What is the book about? mu! ;)
It does touch on the work of those three (Godel - mathematician, Escher-artist, Bach). And Eastern thought/Zen/Koans, mind patterns, metaphysics, computer language, ants. It is a riveting read. I especially like the dialogue beween Tortoise and Achilles. And zen-strings. I have been randomly reading through the book, and still have a lot to cover. The math is everywhere, too. The guy holds his points together really well. It's like a giant koan, opening like a flower.
It took me years, start to finish, to read all of Buckminster Fuller's "Critical Path", and I'm sure this one is going to blow my mind, too.
Paradise is exactly like where you are right now... only much, much...better.
Laurie Anderson |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 11:51:38
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CORN?!? what in the world? I had no idea....
Paradise is exactly like where you are right now... only much, much...better.
Laurie Anderson |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 08:17:57
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blue velvet has closure
..'that's a human ear, alright..' |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/02/2003 08:18:51 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 09:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by blarg007
blue velvet has closure
..'that's a human ear, alright..'
hmm, I guess it does in the plot sense, but I think that psychologically, it leaves a lot left undone, queasy, it gives the look of closure and "happy ending" but it is anything but.
I saw a couple trailers of Lynch's "dumbland" cartoons at his website - is it just me? but the audio and video don't match up at all - I have cable modem and such, but it was very distracting. I'm not sure that is his best medium. What did you think of them?
Has he ever done any music vids? Cause that could be a great match for the Catholics' style - ghost-town-at the saloon drinking new house of the pope served by skeleton man. snake on a bar stool next to em.
"Let x = x." - Laurie Anderson |
Edited by - apl4eris on 10/02/2003 09:36:51 |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 09:36:15
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the first one gets me rolling on the ground every time the guy
starts cussing out the helicopter.
i think the sound thing is that some dialogue is very quiet and hard to hear.
they are downloadable (at shockwave.com) so you can play them off your hard drive and see how that syncs.
the second one pretty much epitomizes the theme 'dumbland' and i am speechless.
what do YOU think of them?
strange flailing hair |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/02/2003 09:36:49 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 09:42:06
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um, I really don't very much - they don't bring anything new to the table, and Lynch's style/personality don't filter through at all. He may need quite a bit more time with the stuff to get to any level of success - He seems to think since he is good at one thing (very) he is good at other things, almost w/out effort. I guess that's a danger for "renaissance men"...although I -do- enjoy his dead-animal-stuck-in-goo-paintings! ;)
"Let x = x." - Laurie Anderson |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 09:59:20
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i like the sound effects on the first one:
i play it on my computer at work with the sound down
and when i see the helicopter scene coming up i crank
the sound up all the way so everyone can enjoy the sweet
sounds of unbridled psychotic anger directed at a helicopter.
i just think they are funny.
lynch pretty much uses familiar schtick tacked onto little
stick figure cartoons, i think he is just having fun with
a different media.
did you see his lumiere film: at blockbuster in the foreign section
they have this film where several directors were asked to make a 60 second
film with an old lumiere camera in one take -he did an amazing set shot
where he basically rotated a set so he could have two scenes intermixed
in the one shot.
who is the director of down by law, stranger than paradise and ghost dog?
strange |
Edited by - blarg007 on 10/02/2003 10:00:22 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 10:13:36
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oh man one of my super-absolute favorites! I know this is getting off-topic, but I love Jim Jarmusch way too much to stay quiet on this! Did you ever see "Fishing with John" w/John Lurie from some of his movies? SO damn funny! Used to play on IFC I think... I miss it!
"Let x = x." - Laurie Anderson |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 10:15:27
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Maybe I oughta start a new topic on Lynch/Jarmusch stuff? At least there is the connection w/the Pixies covering "In Heaven" from Eraserhead.....
"Let x = x." - Laurie Anderson |
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