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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
 Posted - 09/06/2003 : 11:28:13
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Not that I really care how much he makes, but I would be interested to know how much a musician can make off the sales of his album....I imagine that the contracts vary from musician to musician....but what is the standard? Does he make a dollar off each record sale? Since he left American Recordings, he has essentially been an independent, so, he must make more per album despite decreased sales. I've heard that the royalties that he makes from pixies is enough to keep him well sustained.
Also, how much do they make per show? I wonder.
And also, I dont know how many of you noticed that since his equipment was robbed, he has been using old 'Pixies' casing for his instruments....way to go, I think. I suspect that he claimed the stolen cases for his insurance company, got refunded for all of it, and decided to use his old cases, pocketing the rest...and thereby, sticking it to 'The Man'.
I wonder.
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 13:00:27
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| whether or not he decided to buy new casings, he was still owed the money for the lost, insured equpment. so it's not like he's pulling a fast one if he doesn't go out and buy new casings.. |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 16:16:05
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| sorry....did I say 'fast one' or allude to it in a negative way? |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 18:49:59
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sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.. i guess i just don't understand how getting reimbursed for insured items is stickin' it to the man.. it's all pretty cut and dry. you pay for theft insurance, something gets stolen, you get the money you were insured for.
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 10:02:40
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ITS TOO BAD NO ONE OUT THERE CAN ACTUALLY ENLIGHTEN ME ON MY ORIGINAL QUESTIONS
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 10:05:11
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| lol, sorry, i have no idea. (am i making it worse?) |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 10:19:55
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You said you didn't really care how much he makes. He makes royalties off the Pixies and any other film or commercial containing any of he music, he makes a percentage off each album he sells, and it depends on the venue how much he makes from a show. I would guess an artist like him makes 100% off the door, plus money off of any merchandise sold.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 10:36:25
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| Yeah, I think that's what I heard about the FB show at Louis. He got the door. So, at about 500 people, $15/18 per person, works out to somewhere in the $8000 range for the show here. In a bigger city, I imagine he would do better, but who knows. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 10:39:23
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| 22.4 million dollars a year. |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 10:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by frank_black_francis
Not that I really care how much he makes, but I would be interested to know how much a musician can make off the sales of his album....I imagine that the contracts vary from musician to musician....but what is the standard? Does he make a dollar off each record sale? Since he left American Recordings, he has essentially been an independent, so, he must make more per album despite decreased sales. I've heard that the royalties that he makes from pixies is enough to keep him well sustained.
Also, how much do they make per show? I wonder.
I don't know if this helps, but:
in a very small nutshell, there are two types of actual royalties that a recording songwriter gets for his albums/singles. The first is called a "mechanical" and means the artist (or band, if that's how they choose to split it up) gets a percentage of the sales of each record sold through official channels. They obviously don't get paid for the re-sale of used albums.
It used to be there were only a few dozen record labels in America and now there are literally thousands. Back in the day, most labels had a sort of industry standard, and paid approximately the same across the board. now with so many indies out there who can make up their own rules and offer different deals to different artists under different circumstances, things get a little harder to predict or assume.
Generally, mechanical royalties on the sale of a full album run between $ .85 to $1.00, with superstars getting as much as $1.40 if they have enough clout.
The other type of income stream comes from publishing royalties, which are paid per song, per album MANUFACTURED, as opposed to sold. This is usually a fairly set percentage that the label pays to the songwriter's publishing company at the time the records are made. Generally, this runs between 7 and 10 cents per track, per album pressed. The vast majority of the time, the publishing company splits these royalties 50/50 with the songwriter, however, many songwriters are shrewd enough to form their own publishing companies and then can keep most of the money themselves.
Now, since Frank has gotten of the racket of big labels, who routinely front you the money to record and tour (but charge it back to you as a lein on any royalties you might possibly accrue), he reportedly pays for his own recording and travel expenses. That's why he bought the gear required to have his own mobile studio setup. It allows him to record on his own time and at his own pace, and all he has to pay for is upkeep on the equipment and a responsible full-time engineer/custodian of the gear.
This means that he's not really "on" any label. Whenever he gets done with a new piece of product, he LICENSES it to Spinart or Cooking Vinyl or EMusic, or anyone else he chooses (within contractual limitations of course). Since they're not paying upfront for a product that has yet to be completed, and are allowed to preview the whole thing in its final state before agreeing to manufacture, promote and distribute it, he's in a much better bargaining position.
While I have no actual knowldege of Frank's business dealings, let's just say that in a P & D deal (production and distribution) like it appears he has, it is not uncommon for the artist to pay for all the recording and artwork, and have the label pay for all the replication and packaging of the discs. Then, he does his job by going out and touring, and they do their job by making sure the record is in stores everywhere and all over the internet, and – unlike a standard issue record deal – they split any profits right down the middle.
Thus, Spinart's wholesale price to stores would be between $9.50 and $11.00 per CD, which would probably net them between $5.50 and $6.75 when everything's said and done (this allows for all promotional and publishing costs). Conceivably, Frank's share COULD be as much as $3.35 per disc.
It seems likely to me that he could have a deal structured kind of like this, since, in all honesty, he's a bit like the Bob Dylan or Neil Young of alternative rock. By that I mean that his albums don't traditionally sell very much compared to more photogenic or flavor-of-the-month bands, and yet he's extremely well-respected among a certain listening demographic, and to have him associated with your company is a real "feather in the cap" as far as things like that go.
He's easily one of the more impressive signings to either his American or U.K. label, and I'm sure that's worth quite a lot to them, as it no doubt encourages other critically-acclaimed artists to align themselves with those companies.
It is unlikely that he makes enough money off of Pixies royalties to do much more than help with the bills. Every few years or so, there's a bit of a resurgence of interest in those albums, but many of them have been reduced to mid-line status, which usually means that contractually, the label is able to slightly reduce the amount of money they pay on mechanicals.
Plus, there have been very few commercially sold cover versions of his songs, whereas someone like Dylan has hundreds of covers released every year wthout fail all over the world.
Also, the Pixies for a while seemed to eat up a lot of Elektra's wimpy promo budget. Their videos were likely financed partially by the label (at that time most labels insisted that the bands cough up 50% of the production costs), and it's easy for a band like theirs to have run up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to the label in just a few short years. All of that must be paid back before any mechanical royalties will ever be disbursed.
From time to time, he'll allow one of their songs that he wrote to be used in some sort of an ad campaign, and that's where he'll get a nice little check in the mail, probably to the tune of 15 - 30 thousand bucks, with more in residuals if the commercial takes off and plays frequently. Also, some of that commercial dough will be split between the other band members, if their actual Pixies recording is the one used, instead of a cover version.
Then again, most of those ad placements are done in Europe and Japan where the band's songs are better known, and their royalty and residual laws are quite diferent from ours and often are less lucrative than in the States.
Hope this is what you were looking for.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 11:45:34
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| can we get back to discussing the casings? |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 12:40:01
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
can we get back to discussing the casings?
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 12:41:52
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Wow..pretty good info Peter. =)
That's really cool if he's making so much on each CD sale, rather than the paltry $0.25-$0.50 many artists (barely) make..seems like having your own recording system can go a long way..
The other part of the question has to do with touring, and i'm pretty sure he makes a fixed amount for each show. (What did that webpage say? $5000?) |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 13:43:27
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| Thanks Peter Radiator....just what I was hoping to hear....it is pretty cool that he can make a little more being an independent. |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 13:44:11
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That would be $5000 if you wanted to book him for a private show...Some clubs may pay a flat rate, but I doubt it...they usually give a percentage or all of the door.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 14:38:05
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i'm curious how it works at a place like McCabes guitar shop, where they don't sell any alcohol (assuming that's how clubs make most of their money).. all they sell there are waters and cookies. i doubt they're raking it in on the snack bar.
maybe they take more of a percentage there?
(not that this is really any of my f'ing business) |
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green_will
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 15:35:13
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| Hmmmmmmmmm... well, I don't claim to know a lot about record deals, but I've been reading, and it seems to me that mister Black has it sussed! |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 16:04:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Wow..pretty good info Peter. =)
That's really cool if he's making so much on each CD sale, rather than the paltry $0.25-$0.50 many artists (barely) make..seems like having your own recording system can go a long way..
The other part of the question has to do with touring, and i'm pretty sure he makes a fixed amount for each show. (What did that webpage say? $5000?)
Please keep in mind that these are just estimates based on experience and may in fact have no bearing on Frank's deals (although I'm sure the general principles all apply). However, he and his manager seem like pretty shrewd cats with a strong grip on what his cult status can afford him in terms of negotiations.
As far as performance fees go, they vary widely.
Frank most likely receives a guarantee vs. a high percentage of the door. You would probably be amazed at how much he has been paid to play a show and conversely, how little he and The C's have played for – depending on how fun they thought the gig would be, or how badly they needed to make hotel and gas money for the next leg of the tour.
It's unlikely that he gets 100% of the door most places, unless it's a really small place that's just begging him to play, and they'll do whatever it takes. If they serve alcohol, at the end of the night, if they didn't sell enough tickets or make enough at the door to cover his minimum guarantee, they'll have to dip into the till to pay him the difference.
Routing dates (those between major markets where he and the band do their best) are usually booked at a decent discount off an artist's normal guarantee, simply to help cover the enormous travel expenses incurred while on the road.
I'd wager that most of the dates we all see him at, he gets around 80% to 90% of the door (if that turns out to be more than his guarantee - which has most likely already gine up a bit since he's getting all this good press, and seems to be reshuffling finances what with a move and all).
Playing at a place like McCabe's is a bit of a prestige gig, and as such, folks do it on the cheap.
A few years back I know there was a booking agency that was asking $8,500 for he and the band for College dates. True, those always pay more, and the agency likely took about 25% off the top, but still...
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 18:36:38
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Peter Radiator..... the king of long posts! Cheers for the info, that's pretty interesting.
Bacon....... Its not fantastic |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 18:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
Peter Radiator..... the king of long posts! Cheers for the info, that's pretty interesting.
Bacon....... Its not fantastic
hahahaha
I do this when I'm supposed to be working...
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 19:32:24
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That's the spirit. ;)
Thanks for some insight on the industry.. Of course none of us knows if this is what FB gets (maybe he's sponsored by Bill Gates..haha) but this seems pretty reasonable. |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 22:09:57
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yeah peter said it all best. usually you have a contract that your booking person sends to the clubs with a guarantee amount and then usually the artist gets around 85% door profit after a set amount that the club put into promotion costs and workers gets paid back from doors sales.
here's an example:
let's say frank's guarantee is $5,000 then he gets 85% gross door sales after $2175 is paid back to the club. tickets are $12 and the capacity is 550. most of his shows are sold out so we'll assume all the tickets were purchased. then he would get $4,425 on top of his initial $5,000.
then he also gets the fun of his rider and deciding what fun foods/drinks/trinkets he wants to have back stage at each show.
anyways.....i don't if this answered any questions or anything.....
ryan |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 07:23:59
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quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
Peter Radiator..... the king of long posts! Cheers for the info, that's pretty interesting.
Bacon....... Its not fantastic
hahahaha
I do this when I'm supposed to be working...
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
Ah, posting from work is almost as satisfying as crapping on company time!
Bacon....... Its not fantastic |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 07:51:15
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quote:
Originally posted by noexx
yeah peter said it all best. usually you have a contract that your booking person sends to the clubs with a guarantee amount and then usually the artist gets around 85% door profit after a set amount that the club put into promotion costs and workers gets paid back from doors sales.
here's an example:
let's say frank's guarantee is $5,000 then he gets 85% gross door sales after $2175 is paid back to the club. tickets are $12 and the capacity is 550. most of his shows are sold out so we'll assume all the tickets were purchased. then he would get $4,425 on top of his initial $5,000.
then he also gets the fun of his rider and deciding what fun foods/drinks/trinkets he wants to have back stage at each show.
anyways.....i don't if this answered any questions or anything.....
ryan
Ryan,
In all my touring experiences, it's always been a guarantee vs. a door percentage (after club costs), whichever is greater, as opposed to one plus the other.
By your scenario, 550 tix @ $12 = $6,600.
If the club is claiming expenses of $2,175, then we're down to $4,425. 85% of that would be $3,761.25.
The way I'm used to things, FB & The C's would walk out of there with their $5,000 minimum guarantee plus whatever cold cuts, Evian bottles and Wild Turkey was left from their rider.
When you've been out on the road, has your agent been getting you guarantees plus door percentages? If so, give me his number!
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Steak n Sabre
* Dog in the Sand *
Uzbekistan
1013 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 08:32:48
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| I'm reminded of this topic when I hear "Ten-Percenter" |
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blarg007
= Cult of Ray =
USA
493 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 09:37:04
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hey peter radiator,
yes that was a very informative and lucid breakdown
-and more than likely accurate.
on another note i tried to email you via your profiles
posted e-mail address -it bounced back.
could you use my profile to e-mail me and i can re-direct it?
-thanks
R |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 10:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
i'm curious how it works at a place like McCabes guitar shop, where they don't sell any alcohol (assuming that's how clubs make most of their money).. all they sell there are waters and cookies. i doubt they're raking it in on the snack bar.
maybe they take more of a percentage there?
I overheard Frank's negotiations upstairs at McCabe's. It was rather heated. He demanded 10 casings for the evening and they only offered 8. Eventually they settled on 9 casings.
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 10:45:12
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quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
quote:
Originally posted by noexx
yeah peter said it all best. usually you have a contract that your booking person sends to the clubs with a guarantee amount and then usually the artist gets around 85% door profit after a set amount that the club put into promotion costs and workers gets paid back from doors sales.
here's an example:
let's say frank's guarantee is $5,000 then he gets 85% gross door sales after $2175 is paid back to the club. tickets are $12 and the capacity is 550. most of his shows are sold out so we'll assume all the tickets were purchased. then he would get $4,425 on top of his initial $5,000.
then he also gets the fun of his rider and deciding what fun foods/drinks/trinkets he wants to have back stage at each show.
anyways.....i don't if this answered any questions or anything.....
ryan
Ryan,
In all my touring experiences, it's always been a guarantee vs. a door percentage (after club costs), whichever is greater, as opposed to one plus the other.
By your scenario, 550 tix @ $12 = $6,600.
If the club is claiming expenses of $2,175, then we're down to $4,425. 85% of that would be $3,761.25.
The way I'm used to things, FB & The C's would walk out of there with their $5,000 minimum guarantee plus whatever cold cuts, Evian bottles and Wild Turkey was left from their rider.
When you've been out on the road, has your agent been getting you guarantees plus door percentages? If so, give me his number!
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
yeah we usually get a fixed guarantee then if/when the show sells out we get paid more on top of it, in most cases that is. some clubs just do flat guarantees or door percentages solely. but most we go to do guarantee plus around 85% of door grosses after a certain amount is made.
yeah i forgot to add my figure of the 85% thanks to the fact my eyes were shutting and i hadn't slept in 22 hours. heh...excuses excuses..
ryan |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 11:13:04
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| I think the important thing to note is that whatever he makes, it's not enough. No way the man should have trouble paying his cell phone bills, even with LD to the therapist. |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 11:30:41
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| well, he gets royalties for his records and publishing money for his records. so i'll assume for his royalties he gets about $40,000 every 6 months, and that's not including what he makes for pixies royalties if he even had a good royalty deal with 4AD. anyways, i think he makes more on royalties since he sells more albums than the average person but i am not sure how he splits it with the other guys since he writes the music. as for publishing he probably makes a pretty penny off that too. then he comes home with roughly $12,000 more or less just for himself after a 3 to 4 week tour and he tours quite often. i would imagine he is doing alright but i don't know the kind of bills he has. |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 12:44:19
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quote:
Originally posted by noexx
...i'll assume for his royalties he gets about $40,000 every 6 months...
That's a lot of casings. |
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Jettison
- FB Fan -
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 13:55:57
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well, we do now that he takes home about 50% less than what he did a few months ago. ah yes, divorce is a bitch.
www.thecroakers.com |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 14:58:57
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| ANOTHER QUESTION; How much do you think he pays the Catholics? |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 16:13:27
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Probably about $0.25 a minute. Seriously, why the hell does it matter? They obviously make enough to do it for a living.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 17:12:58
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he pays them with reese's pieces. i know it sounds weird but they're addicted and they get grumpy if they don't get cases of them after a tour.
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 19:46:29
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Mmmm, Reese's Pieces... arrggglllllllllllllllllllllllllllhh.
When the hell is CBS gonna do a Murphy Brown reunion? |
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