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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
 Posted - 09/05/2003 : 16:24:49
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Okay, so I have been thinking about posting this for awhile, and I am just gonna do it despite fears you may all flame me or not take it seriously - but I really mean it and I hope you will answer me with thoughtfulness.
My gramma died in July - only two years after my other gramma died very unexpectedly - and while this death was "better" (if death can be better) b/c I did get to say good-bye, I am having a hard time. I just am really struggling with the whole DEATH thing and the concept of THE END. It really really freaks me out and terrifies me. Just the concept (like the Flaming Lips say) that everyone I know will die someday - and where do we go? What happens to us? I know no one REALLY knows - but I guess the big question is, what do you think happens? Since we all know posting advice threads and otherwise, I thought it would be interesting to hear what you all think about this.
I know it's a music site, so if anyone thinks its too "out there", I apologize. I am just looking for some comfort I guess and most of you have opinions and thoughts that I respect.
Thanks. 
Em
In a world full of caterpillars, it takes balls to be a butterfly |
Edited by - ramona on 09/05/2003 16:26:17 |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 16:39:51
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| I don't know, but the worse that can happen is we'll go to Hell and I don't know about you but I'm up for that. |
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ObfuscateByWill
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1887 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 17:34:30
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I kind of went though that phase just after my daughter was born.
For several months I obsessed over death (this includes having long, pointless talks with God, over-analyzing dreams, and really bumming-out my wife) and, in the short version, decided that God didn't exist and it was all just selfish, wasted concern.
It was either go with a couple of my dreams and believe that God was some kidney-shaped mass separating me from a total void or give up the ghost.
It's going to happen. Nothing can prevent it. The part that really bugs me is that I won't even be conscious of my own death, you know?
Like falling asleep or being knocked-out.
*Shka-pow! |
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Cartland
- FB Fan -
Iceland
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 18:00:04
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I've given this a lot of thought. Lately there have been a few deaths in my family.
I wish I could provide some comfort, but the fact is that we're all going to die and there's nothing we can do about it. There is no meaning of life.
The meaning of something is, by definition, related to the future. We do something because it will benefit us or someone we care about (which is the same thing, really) in the near or distant future. That's a chain that's going to end when we die => life is pointless.
Our main objective, I think, should be to make life as comfortable as possible. That's all we can do. Try and be happy. Listen to Górecki, start a family, try to make some money to be able to spend time with the ones we love (find the right balance therebetween).
I'm sorry if this seems pessimistic, but to tell you the truth I find this philosophy liberating. It tells me not to get too depressed by petty things and try to use my time on this earth to the best of my abilities.
However, there could be a God. Although I don't believe in one, I cannot exclude the possibility.
In which case, we're eternal and we have nothing to worry about. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 18:12:56
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Woah Ramona..... this is very heavy for Saturday morning reading! I know how you feel. It's a weird thing to think about. A friend of mine was killed when we were kids by a drunk driver (really nice kid, the kind that would never say a bad word about anyone), which made me think about this from a young age I guess. I remember as I was leaving school the night he died for some reason I told him that he was my good friend..... which is something I am glad I said.
Then my Grandfather and Auntie died a few years ago, both of whom I had chances to visit before they died but didn't (I didn't understand that they were about to die) and to this day I feel very very guilty, as if I didn't care about them (which I obviously do).
When that stuff happens you get understandably knocked for six and you have all these thoughts going through your head about where they are now, and what happens when a person dies. Sometimes I get very scared when I think about it, and sometimes it doesn't bother me. I guess it depends on what type of mood I am in. But I guess it is something we have to accept, though to alot of people it is not an easy thing to understand.
Does anyone believe in reincarnation??
Bacon....... Its not fantastic |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 18:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Cartland
...There is no meaning of life.
...That's a chain that's going to end when we die => life is pointless.
Our main objective, I think, should be to make life as comfortable as possible. That's all we can do. Try and be happy...
I find it interesting that you say "life is pointless," and then you start off your next paragraph with "Our main objective [...] should be ..."
I'm only playing devil's advocate, not trying to argue or stir up a debate.
-Derek |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 18:23:42
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Thanks, Stuart. That's very nice about your friend, I am glad you somehow knew to tell him he was important to you.
Thanks too, Obfuscate and Cartland, for responding. I guess I understand what you are saying but I DO believe there is a meaning to life. I just don't know what that is yet. I guess if anything reading peoples responses will make it clearer to me what I do or do not believe in. And that's cool too.
So, keep 'em coming!
Gracias.
PS. At least you made me laugh, Nimrods Son! |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 18:27:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
Does anyone believe in reincarnation??
And if you do, do you believe that you can be reincarnated as a single cell?
-Derek |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 19:01:51
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When you die your neurons and synapses in your brain shut down one by one and when the last one switches off, you cease to be who you were before. You are now just a bag of meat. Although I'm an atheist, I happen to think that the law of entropy pertains to life as well. If the earth is maintaining a constant energy then the energy that was in your body must go somewhere. It could be converted into heat and pass into the air, or perhaps this is where re-encarnation comes in. I don't really believe in re-encarnation, but I think this is the most plausible explanation. At any rate, I don't believe that your conscious self can exist after you die.
That said, being an atheist makes dealing with death very difficult. I had to put a ferret to sleep last month and had a really hard time with that. I can't imagine what I'm going to go through when someone important to me dies. I've been lucky so far. The way I deal with my own fear of dying is by motivating myself to make the best of my time and to do something I feel is valuable. I think dying will be a lot easier if I have a sense of accomplishment.
Some people think of death as a privilage. It makes life more valuable and often more bearabl to have a mandatory exit. I for one would not want to live forever and would not have even been born if people hadn't died and made space for me. I know it sounds wierd, but try to focus on the positive aspects of death.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 19:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
Does anyone believe in reincarnation??
I do. When we come back, it's as a human again. Pretty simple, really.
-Brian |
Edited by - BLT on 09/05/2003 19:07:44 |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 22:37:19
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There was a great quote some random person put up on a forum I read once...whether he made it up or heard it somewhere and it's just been passed around, I think it's an excellent quote:
"If you feel it, you're not dead. If you're dead, you don't know it."
How true is that. I really haven't dealt with death in the family much...my one grandma died a few years ago, but I didn't cry. I couldn't cry. I was more or less relieved that she was no longer suffering...she had been in the hospital the entire year before her death and just had so many complications, one after another, so to me it was just like "it's finally over."
One thing I cannot handle, though, is death of animals. Why? I don't know, but it's been a part of me ever since I've been a kid. I think the best explaination I can give is that the animals are helpless, unlike humans...they can't communicate their fears and how they feel to us. God, even thinking about this brings tears to my eyes. It kills me to think that some day my cats won't be around. It kills me.
I honestly think a lot of religion sprung up as a way for people to cope with death. I think a lot of it was sprung up to bring meaning to peoples' lives. As an atheist, I think it's all bullshit. Do our lives HAVE to have meaning to be complete? I mean, without any meaning to life, are we any less of a people? We create and live out our own meaning, on a day to day basis...we set goals and make plans, we meet people and chat about absolutely nothing. It's just one big journey. Believing in an afterlife is kind of...I don't know...selfish if you think about it. Those who believe in an afterlife refuse to believe that someday they will cease to exist.
Death by natural causes has to be peaceful and fulfilling...you know that your end has come and it just kinda...ends. I don't know what I'll do when one of my parents dies...as far away as that is (knock on WOOD, man), it kills me to think about it. I think ever since I was a kid, I've been afraid of death. I used to be obsessed with it...when I first heard about "the end of the world," it really freaked the fuck out of me...I was fucking scared and became obsessed. I don't know, as freaky as it is to talk about it, I always thought I would die young...I never thought I'd grow up and be old and die. It's really hard to actually say this cause of superstition and everything...it's just fucking scary. But yeah, I'm content with the possibility that there's nothing after this. We die, we die...the end. Our brain is shut down and we won't know. Now, if you believe in God and souls and all that shit, I can totally see where the afterlife shit comes from.
I think I've said enough.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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paintmeister
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2003 : 23:43:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ramona
I just am really struggling with the whole DEATH thing and the concept of THE END. It really really freaks me out and terrifies me. Just the concept (like the Flaming Lips say) that everyone I know will die someday - and where do we go? What happens to us? I know no one REALLY knows - but I guess the big question is, what do you think happens? Since we all know posting advice threads and otherwise, I thought it would be interesting to hear what you all think about this.
Freaky, indeed. Some of us, I think even Frank, were raised with a Christian philosophy. He has used a lot of Biblical references in his songs.
My mother-in-law is dying of pancreatic cancer and her belief is that when she dies she will be face-to-face with God because she believed that Jesus Christ died to save her from her sins.
I know its not the most popular philosophy these days but most of our western culture is based on this. Well, at least, the United States was based upon this. Hell is referred to a place with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and heaven is mentioned to "wipe away all tears".
Your right this is some heavy stuff. I don't usually go this deep but I guess its been going through my mind these days, too.
Remember, now, one person.....one opinion....open forum. Be cool.
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 01:11:21
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| I think there is a meaning to life, we just haven't figured it out yet. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 02:25:18
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hmm..interesting topic Fozzy..err..Emily. =)
I figure if there is life after death, *someone* must know the right answer..maybe a bunch of those someones...just doesn't make sense it's hidden from *everyone*!
I'm more along the lines of what A4C said..i'm not bold enough to call myself an atheist, i am a 'devout' agnostic. I don't think there's anything 'beyond', and i take comfort believing that when whatever terminal accident befalls me (or i befall into) that'll be the end of the line...
But really, it's gonna happen to all of us, and there is little evidence to prove that we have any chance to 'prepare' for the after-life, so i don't know if there's much use in putting much concern into it. It'll happen when it happens. Hell, maybe you won't die. Your cells decide to fight it, and there you are, staring at the bottom of the buses wheel.
In a way, it's not unlike worrying about a sasquatch attack... |
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Cartland
- FB Fan -
Iceland
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 02:41:59
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
quote:
Originally posted by Cartland
...There is no meaning of life.
...That's a chain that's going to end when we die => life is pointless.
Our main objective, I think, should be to make life as comfortable as possible. That's all we can do. Try and be happy...
I find it interesting that you say "life is pointless," and then you start off your next paragraph with "Our main objective [...] should be ..."
I'm only playing devil's advocate, not trying to argue or stir up a debate.
-Derek
Well, obviously English is not my first language (I'm from Iceland), but 'an objective' seems to me more like 'a goal', whereas 'a meaning' has a different 'meaning' (ha ha ha), the definition being based on something in the future, like I said in my post. I could be wrong of course. |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 07:58:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
But really, it's gonna happen to all of us, and there is little evidence to prove that we have any chance to 'prepare' for the after-life, so i don't know if there's much use in putting much concern into it. It'll happen when it happens. Hell, maybe you won't die. Your cells decide to fight it, and there you are, staring at the bottom of the buses wheel.
In a way, it's not unlike worrying about a sasquatch attack...
It's not that I am worried about it really, it is on my mind. And I don't think its pointless to think about it, b/c like you said - it's gonna happen. I think about a lot of things that are GOING TO HAPPEN. I think about going to London in a month, b/c that is going to happen, I think about going to work on Monday, etc. I think it is human nature to wonder what comes after this. Or it is for me. Especially b/c in two years I have been faced with two people who were important to me dying. I am obviously going to think about it. And wonder about it.
I also KNOW that no one knows. Thats a given. But I was just curious to know what you all think. And you are telling me that. So, cool.
I basically agree with you A4C, at least about the part that energy doesn't die. My dad always tells me that to try and comfort me, and in part it does. I just want to know, THEN WHAT? 
Also, Jim, I have to say I CANNOT watch any movie, TV show or otherwise where an animal dies. I could watch DIE HARD 50 times before I could bare to watch OLD YELLER. Animal death = ick. My kitten was run over 2 years ago and I feel like it completely broke my heart.
But I digress.
The reincarnation question is interesting. I don't know what I think about that. I guess if there is a HEAVEN or AFTERLIFE it would be pretty crowded if souls weren't sent back to earth.
In a world full of caterpillars, it takes balls to be a butterfly |
Edited by - ramona on 09/06/2003 07:59:26 |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 10:04:07
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Hey there Ramona,
I always thought the concept of infinity was scary, like, when you die you go to heaven and live FOREVER with God. What do you do in heaven? (If there is one.) Do you spend eternity with your loved ones worshipping God, like it says in the Bible? Does God not allow you to do anything secular, or earthly (not necessarily sinful, like, you know God would never allow sneaky butchery in heaven,) but just something like play in a baseball game if you liked baseball on Earth? If your concioussness is somehow changed, and you suddenly want to just worship God FOREVER, then that implies to me that God had a hand in changing your mind, in order that he would have all these people worshipping him. This might sound blasphemous (to the Christian) but God would have to be pretty insecure and petty to do that. He's supposed to be omnipotent, and would therefore not have any of the traits of humans...
The Christian (especially Catholic) idea of the "Trinity" to me now seems retarted. It sounds like humans over history just fucking up the semantics of the Bible, nothing more. I have a hard time nowadays believing in the version of God and heaven and hell I was presented with as a child, such as Jesus being the son of God, and the virgin birth, and yadda yadda yadda. A few years ago I would've been scared of going to hell for having these opinions, but I came to realize that that in and of itself was just a reaction I was having to the "fear of God" I had been instilled with.
That being said, I wouldn't consider myself an atheist. I believe in a God, but all of recorded Christian, Jewish and Muslim religion hasn't even begun to scratch the surface of interpreting him. We've put our own foibles, personalities, and expectations on a being who encompasses all of reality. Why do we call God a "he?" I'm not a feminist, but that is patently absurd. God would be sexless. The Christian view of God comes down through the ages still having some of the same attributes as the old Greek and Roman pantheon.
I totally agree with El Barto and whoever else might've mentioned something similar that religion is a way for people to console their fears about death and dying. I would never look down on someone for that. Atheism for me is not out of the picture, because I don't know that there is ANY God, even the being that created all of reality that I would LIKE to believe in. I don't look at it as lack of faith, either. I just consider "faith" as the blind lack of reason and rationality that denominations have asked us to accept for centuries.
In short, I hope there is a God. But it isn't in me to be able to put my doubts aside and say there IS one, definitely right now. Maybe there never will be. Even if I said that verbally, I wouldn't believe it in my head or my heart, and that's where it's most important. Who knows? Maybe ONE denomination IS right, and I'll be excluded from heaven for breaking that one of that one denomination's rules. I'll just have to wait and see. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 12:56:23
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As far as meaning of life goes, if there is some grand, all-encompassing plan, then no, I'm not sure that anyone knows or will ever know the meaning of life. If our life is a trial or a testing ground or a form of purgatory or something, how are we to know unless the dead are risen to tell of it, or unless we have faith in something so strongly as to remove all doubt. Being humans, and ever more inquisitive and questioning, I'm not sure that there is really anyone out there who has concrete beliefs on matters of faith so much so that they know it through and through. But there are a lot of small everyday things that happen to different people all over the world that add up to something greater than randomness.
One could argue that all these amazing things are random, and coincidence, and there is a certain probability (which is unknown) that everything is the result of chance and randomness and chaos. But for me, when I think about physics and chemistry and science and all the complicated things that have to have occurred just so in order for us to exist on this humble planet, temperature, pressure, gas make-up, the earth's rotation period, hell, our own bodies, it just seems too much. And when things like my mother awaking from a dream and saying, "I think ___ has died" and having it confirmed later that day, or, well, the list goes on, it seems too much.
I suppose it's religion is partly an explanation for the unknown, which includes death, and partly justification for the complexity in it's origins. However, that's origins arenn't as relevant as what we make of them ourselves today. If they serve to comfort about death, or bring people together, or foster ethics and morals and being a good person, then that is enough for me. If they serve to be divisive, cause anguish and hatred, well, that doesn't seem all that worth it.
Which brings me to what I said I was going to get back to, which is the meaning of life. I said that if there was some all-encompassing plan, it could never realistically be known, except perhaps by faith (which I agree is a different kind of knowledge than scientific knowledge). But what is faith but choice? By that reasoning, I would say that we are responsible for the meaning in our own lives. If we attach it to service to God, or to other people, or to growing a family, or whatever else, then we have chosen our meaning. We do not need to know the meaning of life, we just want to know if we're on the best path to deriving the most meaning from our lives.
For me, part of it is to find a girl who shares similar morals, outlooks, beliefs, passions, and so forth. To have a family and kids and provide a good start for them. To make some sort of contribution to the greater good. And most of all, to be happy and content with my life. Everything else, the girl, the family, the kids, and a bunch of stuff not worth mentioning, these are all means to achieve that ultimate happiness, I suppose, but the fundamental flaw that I see in a lot of people and ultimately myself as a perfectionist, is that I will always want more. I don't know how to change that, so I just do my best to cope with it and remind myself that what I have is pretty good at this moment. I try to live more for now then the future (not that I'm reckless or anything, but if you live for later, then how much later - eventually, the only thing you're living for is your death, and I think that's part of the problem some people have with death).
Which brings me back to one other point before I finish this. I mentioned that I want to do something for the greater good. From what I know, most people have a similar goal or objective for their life: they want to be famous, to be respected, well-known, important. All of these goals stem from one thing: people looking for an external meaning to life, or to prove to others that their life had meaning. But in the end, I suppose we have to be happy with ourselves and only aspire to rise to the challenge should the call to the greater good be given to you specifically.
I obviously am as uncertain as anyone, having shown several places where I doubt my own philosophy, but I don't find myself worrying much about the meaning of life or greater meanings/beings/whatever. I hope that something in here helps someone. Or at least that it's coherent. Apparently today is going to be an introspective and philosophical day for me.
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 17:36:24
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It's interesting to me how a discussion about death automatically becomes a discussion about religion and/or God. I never mentioned that in my intial question - yet we just went there. Which is cool and fine. I agree that religion's main funtion is to comfort us about what happens after this life - although I am not a very religious person. I was raised without religion and consider myself to be a spiritual person, although I am OBVIOUSLY still sorting out what that means to me.
Mainly though I am 27 years old, I have a lot of time left to figure this out for myself. Who knows if I will come up with any more answers by 77 or 87. I wonder if people become resigned to the fact that we are just going to get old and die (minus any accidents or what have you). Old people generally seem to be pretty chill with that fact. Maybe I just need to get older and wiser? |
Edited by - ramona on 09/06/2003 17:37:41 |
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ObfuscateByWill
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1887 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 06:08:57
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quote:
I don't really believe in re-encarnation, but I think this is the most plausible explanation.
What happens when our planet is no more?
I don't very well agree with the idea of there being some sort of life-energy. I mean, each time I put on my clothes, touch my computer keyboard, or geez - just stand around enjoying a breeze - my little molecules and whatnot are exchanging particles with every other little molecule that they encounter.
I don't have a point. 
*Shka-pow! |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 07:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by ObfuscateByWill
[quote]
I don't very well agree with the idea of there being some sort of life-energy. I mean, each time I put on my clothes, touch my computer keyboard, or geez - just stand around enjoying a breeze - my little molecules and whatnot are exchanging particles with every other little molecule that they encounter.
What do you think is controlling your body when you put on your clothes, touch your keyboard, or stand in the breeze? Do you think the molecules and neurons are just spontaneously controlling themselves? Something made a decision and acted to do those things.
I believe (actually I know) we are spiritual beings-- matter doesn't just animate itself.
-Brian |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 13:25:55
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Considering there is considerable proof that atoms have a consciousness, i'd be willing to argue that matter does essentially animate itself.
The best that i've reasoned out is that so-called 'spiritual' phenomena is indeed 'real' (everything is 'energy', so a lot of it makes sense from this perspective), but to attribute it to some 'higher being' isn't my logical conclusion of said experiences.
I believe there's a lot of really neat stuff we're gonna find out about ourselves, which would appear very similar to an automobile would appear to a 2nd century human, but is still very much a part of us, and this 'natural' world.
Indeed tho, death is an experience that will bring us all together in the end. =) |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 17:46:38
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quote:
Indeed tho, death is an experience that will bring us all together in the end. =)
Except for Ezekial, he has no idea what death is like. 
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 19:28:22
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But does Death know what death is like?
-Derek |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 20:00:18
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I would think Death would know what death is like...do you think Death died a deadly death? However, if Death died, how did he die if death didn't exist yet? Is Death living, then? Isn't that an oxymoron?
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 21:35:35
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| I think Death would be undead.. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 06:09:00
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| I think this topic's going swiftly downhill... |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 07:12:50
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| I agree. I thank everyone who answered me though! Cheers. |
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