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bazza
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1439 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2003 : 02:21:41
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ah yes - phylogenetic trees. basically there is a macromolecule in prokaryotes (like bacteria) and eukaryotes (like humans) called ribosomal RNA (rRNA). basically this can be either 5S, 16S or 18S. the gene sequence of these rRNA molecules retains a certain degree of homology as you go down evolutionary pathways - so basically bacteria which synthesise the same types of metabolites (like enzymes that modify glucose the same way or bugs that make the same type of antibiotics) will have sequence similarities - and by pairing these off using a series of techniques (like fingerprinting and BLAST searches) you can assign them to a common evolutionary pathway that stems from a 'progenote' - which is the common ancestor that basically confers this macromolecule. so what you end up with is a 'phylogenetic tree' based on sequence similarities of 16s rRNA. i am not too sure about human trees... so ill assume its pretty similar. hope that clear it up.
Is your work done? Are all pigs fed, watered and ready to fly?....
- David Brent |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 12:18:44
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| Can you provide any examples of this? Something you find particularly convincing? |
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Valhalla
- FB Fan -
Germany
80 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 14:16:06
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Personally I think that neither creation nor evolution is "true".
The creationists tell you that the world has been created about 5000 years ago with Adam and Eve as the first beings. They tell you that only the Bible is true and all other religions are wrong. This is obviously not true, as there is much evidence that the earth and the universe are much older. On the other hand, the evolutionists say that everything is made of matter and that our body and soul is made of matter too. They say that conscience is just an epi-phenomenon and an illusion. Obviously they don't know the latest research in quantum physics, which is a proven fact. Recently I have read the book "The Self-Aware Universe" by Amit Goswami (he is a professor of physics and NOT an Indian Guru) and I think he is right. Maybe you like to read http://twm.co.nz/goswam1.htm . Or read any other book about this topic. Personally I think that the only word to describe God is "Love" - not in the earthly meaning (with love as a special form of desire) but in the meaning of unconditionally loving every creature. I think that Christians, Buddhists and Hindus are describing this same God and that it is stupid to say that the one religion is true, whereas the others are wrong. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 15:18:15
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Actually I'm pretty sure creationists believe the earth is more than 5000 years old. I've heard 30,000 or 40,0000 years.
-Derek |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 15:23:45
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| Do people still hold to that, though? Again, I fall into neither and both categories, but I'm certainly more willing to take the scientific evidence that has provided a much more realistic estimation of the earth's age, but it doesn't stop me from having creationist leanings. |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 15:38:45
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The aspect of free will is interesting in such debates. I really can't see a place for a "free" will without a significant "force" of some kind. To be "free", one must be able to stop the laws of nature and do otherwise. Such powers we usually attribute to religous forces. On the other hand, the whole talk about a "free" will is meaningless knowing how difficult it is for most to go through with the little will they have - free or not (i think nietzsche made that observation).
Regarding consciousness, there's a book by Antonio Damasio which is a pretty good attempt at answering one of the two central questions regarding the topic: how are we conscious. It is pretty enjoyable, and he is a well-renowned neuroscientist that writes a lot better than me - and you learn a great deal about the body, the brain, and your emotions. Metal! Part two of the puzzle: the experience of consciousness will forever be mysterious - or left to philosophers.
I've read the whole bible, some of it several times (yep - the jesus parts). My family is not religious at all- but i got interested when i needed some soothing from my terrible twenties. I used to check out local churches to see who had the best bass in their organs - it is a pretty awesome sound when the organ player knows how to play. Anyway, there's some good stuff there, some bad. Regarding Jesus, I think there were some people that met him or heard about him, then wrote about him and adapted him into their own political agendas. But reading it several times leaves me with a pretty good impression of him. LIkewise - the whole Judas thing is terribly interesting. Anyone here like Borges? In Labyrinths he has a short piece about Judas and his possible roles in the play against jesus. Reminds me of "the last temptation of christ" - which i really enjoyed. |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 15:43:45
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| i tried to spell - plot against jesus - i must stop with these quick replies |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 16:21:26
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Growing up catholic and having to go to church every week while in school from 5th to 12th grade (switched schools), I've always had a secret, dirty interest in the music...not the message, of course, but the instruments and melodies.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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bazza
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1439 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 08:20:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Can you provide any examples of this? Something you find particularly convincing?
yes i do. check your email.
Is your work done? Are all pigs fed, watered and ready to fly?....
- David Brent |
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vegan
- FB Fan -
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 08:30:33
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I happened to watch the 700 Club last night for about an hour (a religious info show). In it, they repeatedly prayed for three seats to open up on the supreme court so "we can fill it with conservatives". They were actually holding a "21 days of prayer" to realize this end. They prayed to God to damn those republicans who wouldn't change the Senate rules that allow for minority parties to fillibuster nominations that they deem faulty. They bashed liberals as anti-constitutional and took stabs at the poor ("and I thought conservative meant you paid taxes. geesh!").
It is this picture of God, painted by fanatics, that destroyed my belief in him.
I can't remember what episode, but it was in season 13 of the Simpsons that Homer said, "I wish God were alive to see this". |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 09:01:44
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| Do you then dislike Frank Black because the vast majority does not? Not to compare him to God, but to lose your faith in God because of a few or even a sea of idiots is a little sketchy. Your faith in organized religion, however, I would be much more inclined to lose. I think you'll find that all the Simpsons believe in God or, at least in Lisa's case, a god and the ideas behind it, but that there is definite questioning of organized religion which has been present since the very first season. Not that they are definitive or that we should choose our faith based on a cartoon and the ideas of the creators, just thought it was interesting to consider. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 10:49:57
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I think all religious TV is a bunch of crap. Ever seen TBN (trinity broadcasting network)? That station must be affiliated with Lucifer. I watch it occasionally because it makes me laugh. There is this old lady with a pound of makeup on her face, 3 sets of false eyelashes on her eyes, and this huge blonde wig. They all sit on these luxurious gold furnitured sets. It's awful!
Dean makes a good point. I don't see how that picture of God would destroy your belief. There will always be bogus people and way-too-extreme fanatics in any religion/business/etc. Like that Mike Rudolph (or whoever) guy who bombed an abortion clinic. I think that is his name.
-Derek |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 11:03:09
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| The Rev. Jerry Falwell is a despicable, evil human being who may in fact beleive he is doing the right thing, or just be a malicious bigot. That certainly doesn't mean we should paint all Rev's with an evil brush. I'm not religious, I don't much care for organized religion, and I would say that I am "spritual". I think you make a good point vegan, that many people have destroyed whatever value could be derived from leading the traditional "good Christian" life. I happen to think that faith in God has nothing to do with church, reverends, priests, bibles, sacred days, events, rituals, organziations, rules, damnation, etc, etc. Faith and beleif come from within, and everything external is either an extension of that internal feeling, or it is simply forced upon someone, and thus has little real value. |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 11:05:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
I think all religious TV is a bunch of crap. Ever seen TBN (trinity broadcasting network)? That station must be affiliated with Lucifer. I watch it occasionally because it makes me laugh. There is this old lady with a pound of makeup on her face, 3 sets of false eyelashes on her eyes, and this huge blonde wig. They all sit on these luxurious gold furnitured sets. It's awful!
Dean makes a good point. I don't see how that picture of God would destroy your belief. There will always be bogus people and way-too-extreme fanatics in any religion/business/etc. Like that Mike Rudolph (or whoever) guy who bombed an abortion clinic. I think that is his name.
-Derek
My favorite show is the one where the guy touches the people and they faint or whatever. I can't stop laughing when I watch it |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 11:15:40
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| Homer believes in Jebus. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 12:11:52
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I've heard something about molecular consciousness...pretty interesting stuff.
Basically, some scientists were shooting photons in a vacuum 'box', and they were aiming it at a 'wall' with a 'hole' beside it, and the molecules would go to the hole, rather than hit the wall...or something like that.. |
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vegan
- FB Fan -
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 18:18:09
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I guess, as lame as it may sound, when I realized the hypocrisy of organized religion, I began to question the existence of God. I realized, as the Buddhists believe, that all life is suffering, everywhere in this world, and that I couldn't see Godliness in anything. Ultimately, coupled with my comtempt for organized religion, I lost my "faith". I do believe in a life-force that binds all living organisms; but I'm baffled by viruses or lab experiments in which simple RNA molecules replicate themselves (is this life?).
Furthermore, Frank Black is tangible; God is not.
Further beyond furthermore, I'm just a Simpsons fanatic, so that is why I made that reference, however impertinent to the subject matter. Sorry.
Peace |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 22:18:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Valhalla
Personally I think that neither creation nor evolution is "true".
The creationists tell you that the world has been created about 5000 years ago with Adam and Eve as the first beings. They tell you that only the Bible is true and all other religions are wrong. This is obviously not true, as there is much evidence that the earth and the universe are much older. On the other hand, the evolutionists say that everything is made of matter and that our body and soul is made of matter too. They say that conscience is just an epi-phenomenon and an illusion. Obviously they don't know the latest research in quantum physics, which is a proven fact.
What is a proven fact? All of quantum physics? I don't think so. And, even if there other things than matter, let's suppose that evolution only applies to matter. The question is what mechanism led to the observed biodiversity on Earth.
Here's is my 1 minute evolution primer.
What is biological evolution? A strict definition would be a change in allele frequencies in a population over generations (note that evolution occurs within populations, not within individuals). What does that mean? It means the frequency of different genes changing over time, which we would see as changes in morphology (or behavior or other characteristics of organisms).
What causes evolution?
1) Natural selection - which says that if a) individuals vary in their traits, b) if those traits are heritable (passed on to their offspring), and c) different traits have different levels of reproductive success, then traits that confer greater reproductive success will become more common over generations.
For example, say a) some cheetahs are faster than others, b) fast cheetahs make fast baby cheetahs, and c) fast cheetahs catch more food and then make more babies, then over generations the population of cheetahs will become faster.
The logic of natural selection is undeniable. If those three conditions are true, then evolution is going to occur. Gene frequencies are going to change.
2) Genetic drift - if traits don't have strong effects on the success of individuals or populations are small, then essentially random evolution can occur.
So, evolution and natural selection are not equivalent. Natural selection is a cause of evolution.
A very good website for anyone that wants more information (including examples of transitional fossils and observed speciation):
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2003 : 17:27:31
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One day while at work, I got into a religious debate with a server. I have NEVER gone around pushing my beliefs on anyone, and yet she was doing precisely this to me that day.
I believe that evolution is true. I also believe in God. I don't see God as the narrowly-defined entity he is in most Christian religions, because his form and mode of "thinking" (for lack of a better word) would be nothing at all like we were used to. I don't think of God as a "he" or a "she" although due to my Baptist upbringing I refer generically to him as "he." I think that the way that scientists have explained the universe (not all of them, but some) are really clues as to HOW God actually created everything. I always found it interesting that most religions are built up on the concept of "faith" but really all faith seems to me to be is a reason for the church to tell you to not think about evidence when it is presented in front of your face. There are concrete examples, such as dinosaur bones and carbon dating, not to mention newer dating techniques, that prove to me - beyond the shadow of a doubt - that things such as dinosaurs and neanderthals actually existed, yet many Christians don't believe in them. While that is their prerogative, it doesn't sit well with me personally. My grandfather was a devout southern Baptist. While I love him dearly, he still accepted only those aspects of the world around him that reinforced his belief in God. He didn't even really believe in demons or Hell, which are elements of his own religion. It was like he only believed in things that made him feel comfortable. That is how most religions seem to me to believe today.
Now, about this woman at work, she finally loaned me a creationist scientist video about the origin of the world. It was done by a Reverend Kenneth Hovind, who was a smug, smirking ass hole. (When I was a devout young baptist before my black sheep phase, I would've paled if I'd know one day I would call any pastor or religious figure an ass hole; such is the nature of my straying from the flock.) He used to be an evolutionary scientist, actually, but had seen the error of his ways and switched over to religion. Although some of his theories were patently absurd in my mind, my main problem with him was that he was so eager to put down people that thought differently, namely evolutionists. While I realize that some might say that big bang scientists push their theories down people's throats, it really is only the bad ones who do this. I'm not aware of Carl Sagan or Steven Hawking devoting too much attention to trying to "bring people into the fold" that it would affect their scientific studies. Rev. Hovind described that the Earth was no older than 6,500 years old. There were no dinosaurs included in his narrative, although no explanation was given to why there are bones in museums. At one point, according to Rev. Hovind, there was a protective wall of water THAT SURROUNDED THE EARTH! I wondered about this; was it supposed to be in Earth orbit? He said that this wall of water provided a shield from the sun, and that it was what allowed people to live to such old ages, like 900+ years, like they did in the Old Testament. At some point it apparently fell, creating the flood described in the story of Noah.
That brings me to my final point: I don't disbelieve the Bible. There are actual historical events described in it. But I don't think it was meant for absolute historical accuracy, and wherever it is historically accurate it was only to reinforce a religious idea or tell a parable.
glacial |
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