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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2003 : 10:03:57
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I don't know why I'ms tarting all these inflammatory topics lately, but I do.
Basically, I'm interested on why Americans seem to be constantly fighting monkey trials. But then I met a Norwegian Israeli girl who was also a creationist. so now I think it is an international issue, although more irritating then really dangerous. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 10:59:40
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Don't be such a tart. ;)
I'm on the big-bang evolutionary train myself.
I think there are some interesting creationist arguments, but i have seen nothing to convince me that there are any 'greater powers at work'.
The fact that this world is so fucked proves to me there is no 'loving and peaceful' diety behind the wheel. Beelzebub seems a much more likely candidate in the realm of 'supreme being', imo. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 11:05:09
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Yeah, but the issue is what gets taught in schools. The argument against creationism is that it advocates a certain religion's point of view (namely Judeo-Christianity) and violates the seperation of church and state. There's a lot of Amerikans who don't support a seperation of church and state (though they don't realize that very concept is what allows them to worship as they please, instead of paying taxes to the Church of England).
Don't get me started on seperation of church and state. This is one of my hot button passion issues and I just want to get the hell out of the office today...
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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Mr Grieves
- FB Fan -
88 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 11:31:51
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I'm an evolution man, for the simple reason that creationism and religious thought in general seems incredibly implausible to me. It's all a question of faith, and I happen not to have it despite having been brought up Anglican and having been to church almost every week for the first 16 years of my life. I questioned things from a fairly early age.
They got a ranch they call No. 51! |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 13:06:44
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I actually had somewhat of a similar debate with my girlfriend, who believes in God (whereas, I was brought up to, but no longer do). This whole "God created the universe thing"...well I say, if God created the universe, then who created God? And if God can come from nowhere, why can't the universe? I think we as a people are so used to mortality, so used to something having a beginning and having an end. What if the universe never had a beginning? What if it just "was"? Obviously stars and planets have beginnings and ends, but did space necessarily ever have to "begin"? Couldn't it just have been there, and over time stars were born, solar systems, galaxies, planets, etc. etc.? And, even if we discover the answer, will it really solve anything? There's no way to prove God exists or not...your belief either way is based on your logic either gathered by yourself or passed down from generation to generation. Choose your poison.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Itchload
= Cult of Ray =
USA
891 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 14:47:40
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I don't believe in god either, and religion seems more like a sports team to me. People are brought up with it, and get ridiculously defensive over "their team" when they could easily have just been born into another one. (this doesn't apply to everyone, such as the regular sports fans who just casually root for their team but aren't passionate about it and the rare fan who chooses a different team to follow other than the one he/she's brought up with). I have a friend who I always get into fights with about religion, even though she doesn't even believe in a heaven or an afterlife or anything involving Adam and Eve and all that, she still gets ridiculously defensive about her specific religious upbringing which doesn't make any sense to me, since she clearly doesn't believe 95% of it. It's the same thing that makes people wildly nationalistic, when they clearly could have just been born anywhere, like iraq.
I got a bit off topic there, and didn't give any reason as to why I'm evolution as opposed to creationist. Basically, it's because I blatantly disagree with so many things in the Christian bible, the homosexuality issue is a big one, and something that's going to seem as glaringly noxious as if the bible proclaimed white people the superior race in another few decades. |
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J Mascis
- FB Fan -
USA
205 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 15:23:46
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| Mych like my friend Stockwell Day, I believe that humans co-existed with dinosaurs. I have nothing to back this up though because I actually believe in evolution and gang bang theory and I just made up the first line for reasons unknown to me. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 15:35:17
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If the universe can come from nowhere, then why can't God? I do believe in God, and I do believe in some higher power, though I can't explain it and don't understand it, but I also believe in evolution, which I'm well aware is quite contradictory to the whole 'there is a God' thing. Not to say that I believe exclusively in what is written in the bible, which most theologians would tell you means I don't believe in God, certainly people like Clement or Aquinas. But I do, somewhere deep down, believe in both as an intuition and not as an institution. It seems to me that neither has it quite right and both have elements of truth, but like all the rest of humanity, I don't know how much or, for that matter, anything, except that I know nothing. There is no logic in my belief, I realize and admit that, but how can there be logic when there is no method for proving or disproving existence?
I agree with Itchload that people who become fanatic about anything are generally trouble as fanatacism usually defies common sense, whether we're talking about soccer, hockey, religion, or otherwise. This goes back to my whole "extremism = bad" discussion in the libertarian thread. Anyway, I have no intention of debating whether there is a God or not, because that is belief/opinion and such debates would accomplish nothing. But I am interested to hear what people think for themselves. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 15:55:10
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| If there were a god, would it evolve? If not, does that mean it would be perfect? Or merely dead? |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 16:25:41
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does frank believe in god? he sings about god alot.
bored of the little comments. i guess i'll just have an actual signature. much shorter.
-Jessie |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 19:37:14
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Frank has alot of Bible references and I guess you could say "spiritual lyrics" (not like Creed or anything).
I think a good argument against evolution is, why haven't we found any skeletal remains of a being in the transition state from one form to the next? I thought evolutionists say that it takes a while for something to evolve, so you think that evolution would make some mistakes and something would die in mid-transition. Babies can die while still developing in the womb, so why couldn't a snake die while evolving into a cow (lol). Where is that Snakcow skeleton?
And I dunno if scientists supposedly have found these types of skeletons, but you think there would be thousands and thousands of them.
-Derek |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 20:05:23
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| Do evolutionists believe that all stories in the Bible are fictional? |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 21:09:32
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I think we're confusing evolution and the origin of the universe in some cases. One could believe a god started the whole thing and then the process of evolution takes over from there.
There is no reason an evolutionist would have to disbelieve all of the stories in the Bible. I'm no Bible scholar, but I don't think the new testament has anything that contradicts the idea (I think it's more than an idea) that characteristics of populations of organisms change over time (evolution).
And in response to ProverbialCereal, many fossils of "transitional states" have been found. If you're talking just about human ancestors many have been found with Lucy perhaps being the most famous. More are found every year, particularly in Africa. However, one doesn't have to look for fossils to see evolution in action. It is regularly seen in organisms with short generation times like bacteria, viruses, and fruit flies. That evolution is responsible for drug restraint viruses and bacteria. Also, exotic species (species that have been moved to new areas by humans) are often observed to evolve to better fit their new environment.
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 21:44:10
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Evolutionism vs Creationism...mmm...
Storical note:evolutionism is taught in the US schools since the 30's when a highschool teacher won a cause against his school principal who sued him for teaching the Darwinian evolution theory instead of the Bible as long as the origin of Man was concerned.The court decided that it was his right to teach whatever thought best and assolved him.Since then Darwin's theory was unconditionally accepted by most of civilized countries(the Vatican is still an exception,though they admitted in 1973 that it's the earth that goes around the sun and not vice versa).
The first problems came out when the evolutionists failed to find "the missing link".Since the Darwin theory claims that a species evolves to another due to natural selection,between two different species there should be an intermedium one that would have carateristics of both.For example between monkeys and man there should be a "monkeyman".No fossils that could match this kind of species has ever been found.There is a gap between the ancient great apes and the first humanoid.
To complicate even more this situation there is the bird evolution.For evolutionists birds discend from serpents but no intermedium species has ever been found.A skeleton that has been found and that could match the description was dated and proved to be of an age much before of the appearance of the first volatile.
Add to this incapacity of the evolutionists to prove with facts their theory a statistic research on dna samples that proved? that we all descend from a single couple of human beings and you have the return of creationism,dead for the most but never forgotten by the Church.
As long as philosophy is concerned most serious scientists and theologists agree on one thing:Evolution does not exclude God's existence whatsoever.And that's for a simple reason:Admitting that we all descend from a single primordial cell,who created that cell?Or the conditions that created it ,or its composing elements?
Evolutionism has nothing to do with religion,it's just a scientific theory and as such it can be incomplete or even wrong.On the other hand you have a dogma(common in ebraism,christianity and islam)that claims that we were created as we are and it's the base of 3 religions that link their existence(and business)on it.The debate is going on between evolutionists who made of Darwin's theory a new dogma(correct at all costs) and religious pseudo-scientists who base their arguments on the missing links.The last defence of Darwinists consists in the so called "jump" theory that claims that a species passes to another without a middle passage avoiding the link problem.
Personally i don't believe that my grandfather was Adam and my grandmother was Eve,that god flooded the world 'cause he was pissed off with us humans and that going to church is gonna save my sinfull ass...Darwin is more convincing but if new facts come out i will be glad to reconsider...
www.munchienandalusia.too.it |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 21:47:29
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quote:
Originally posted by IceCream
Do evolutionists believe that all stories in the Bible are fictional?
I don't if all do but for me the bible is mythology:a bit of historical truth covered by centuries of myth and ignorance...
www.munchienandalusia.too.it |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 06:56:17
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I thought they found out that birds evolved from dinasours? |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 09:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
i have seen nothing to convince me that there are any 'greater powers at work'.
Open your eyes
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ingersoll
- FB Fan -
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 09:42:27
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i think the christian god is complete nonsense. everything in the bible contradicts itself, it was written by ignorant and superstitious men, and the fact that thousands of years later people still believe that virgins can give birth, seas can be parted, bread can fall from the sky, two of EVERY animal can fit on a single ship (imagine the size of this ship), flaming shrubbery can talk, people can come back from the dead, walk on water, turn water into wine...the fact that there are supposedly rational, educated people who still believe this makes my head throb. it's like believing in unicorns.
so, the christian version of "god" is complete idiocy. but does that mean there isnt some sort of...something, somewhere out there, beyond human comprehension? i dont know, no one does. probably not. people instinctively assume that if something exists, it must have a beginning, because everything we know has a beginning. it is virtually impossible for the human mind to wrap itself around the notion that something, the universe perhaps, may not have had a beginning, that it has always existed. our minds reject that notion because its so alien and so against everything we've been lead to believe.
before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. that way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 14:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by NimrodsSon
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
i have seen nothing to convince me that there are any 'greater powers at work'.
Open your eyes
yeah, you never see frank play?
bored of the little comments. i guess i'll just have an actual signature. much shorter.
-Jessie |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 15:15:36
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Frank is God
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 15:15:41
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Aye, believing in 'god' is only a small step from believing in dragons and pegasus.
I like itchload's analogy the best..it *so* is like sports teams! Most often people are born into their religion, and there's no 'choice' involved. Brilliant. =)
Erebus - most religions i can think of view their 'god' as being perfect..but i'd be much more willing to accept an 'evolving' god than a 'perfect' one.
Also, i'd imagine there'd be a multitude of gods or deities..not just one.
NimrodsSon - very useful posting. In the mean time, feel free to open that part of your brain that is used to explain and express your ideas on these helpful comments. |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 15:19:48
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...no wait, Reverend father what's-his-name is God
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 15:27:29
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| If you can believe that the world just appeared out of nowhere, what's so strange about believing there's a god. The God thing seems more logical because at least someone created it. I really don't know exactly what I believe. A part of me wants to believe in the whole Bible thing which I've been raised to believe, but another part of me says I'd rather go to Hell anyways to be with all the cool people. I definitely belive that some kind of God created the world though. When I said open your eyes, I meant, look anywhere at anything and that's evidence that some kind of God exists. |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 15:45:40
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hmm, i once said kim deal is god...but now since frank is god, there's either two god's or kim is the devil(in a, y'know, rockin sorta way). that would make sense.
bored of the little comments. i guess i'll just have an actual signature. much shorter.
-Jessie |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 16:34:35
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| Kim would be the godDESS |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 17:02:57
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shut up you fuckin arse! kim IS GOD then if your gonna be that way.
bored of the little comments. i guess i'll just have an actual signature. much shorter.
-Jessie |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 19:46:29
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Yep, Kim Gordon is God |
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paintmeister
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 19:47:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Grieves
I'm an evolution man, for the simple reason that creationism and religious thought in general seems incredibly implausible to me. It's all a question of faith....
Exactly, you have to have a lot of faith to believe in evolution, too. A lot of the facts given in defense for evolution seems to be based on presumptions and speculations. I don't recall seeing actual undeniable evidence that one creature has transformed into another. Other words like "suggests" or "seems to imply", come to mind.
The problem with the other side (Creationism) is you can't,scientifically speaking, prove it either.
We've gone full circle here. It seems to be a matter of what you believe.
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 21:36:50
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I think the concept of humans evolving is a lot easier to swallow sans the whole faith thing than the concept of this greater being who created us. I love ingersoll's first paragraph and itchload's sports team analogy. And Nimrod, about "what's so strange about believing in god" if one can believe in the world coming out of nowhere...there's a lot more baggage attached to the belief in god, even if it's not necessarily the christian god or muslim god or whatever religion god you believe in. If you believe in *a* god or gods, it changes your way of thinking about life as a whole. Believing that the world just became the world doesn't really change anything at all.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 22:10:56
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I dunno NS, i look around, and nothing shouts 'god' to me.
I hope to see someone post something who's looked more heavily into this and can provide specifics, right now we're kinda talking in circles.
One interesting, undeniable phenomenon is the currently expanding universe. It's pretty clear in this respect that we didn't 'appear' out of anywhere, and the sun will go super-nova in something like 8 billion years..in which case this planet is toast...great set-up oh mighty perfect god. ;)
And, if we're going with the Xian (Christian) philosophy, God is a peaceful and loving entity - why is this planet the complete opposite of this?
And good points Jim.. There's more to a 'god' than the beginning of the world.. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 22:45:14
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What is the question we are trying to settle?
Omer's original question?
Whether evolution occurs?
Whether speciation occurs?
Whether humans evolved from earlier hominids?
Where life came from?
Where the universe came from?
Whether god exists?
I believe that questions 2-4 can be answered and supported by good evidence. |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 07:58:53
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| I'm starting a new religion, where I, Visiting Sasquatch, am GOD, and I declare every Friday to be VS day. That means you are not allowed to work Fridays, and are required to "pray" by attending your favorite bar, coffee boutique, or ice cream parlor. You must proseletize my new religion by directing everyone you meet to FrankBlack.net. Also, please donate you voluntary contributions to me via pay pal. Halleluvisitingsasquatch! |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 09:03:12
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| Darwin - I'm suddenly not sure what my original question was about :-) |
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bazza
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1439 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 10:43:19
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time to quote some Bill Hicks -
ever notice how people who believe in creationism look really - i dunno - unevolved? furry hands... eyes close together... 'i believe God created me in 1 day!' - 'i say he rushed it dude'.
after 2 years learning about phylogenetic trees im very much on the evolutionary side m'fraid.
Is your work done? Are all pigs fed, watered and ready to fly?....
- David Brent |
Edited by - bazza on 07/27/2003 10:44:42 |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 15:16:33
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the question of this thread is which songwriter is god. i say boy george.
-Jessie |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 22:20:06
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| Barry - tell us a little more about phylogentic trees! |
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