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Valhalla
- FB Fan -
Germany
80 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2003 : 13:24:59
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Frank Black's music is excellent. But there is another reason his music sounds even more excellent to me. It's because Frank Black is an "independent" artist and he is relatively unknown in the world of pop music. How would you feel, if Franks CD's in future were mega-selling ? I would still like his music, but probably not as much as I do now. It's weird, but when bands like Radiohead or R.E.M. were quite unknown, there were my favourite bands (and there music was in fact better than nowadays !). Now they sound quite average to my ears. Probably I am friend of the esoteric music style  What do you think about it ? |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 13:39:01
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| There's always a certain appeal to loving bands that are somewhere in the middle. While not terribly popular, they're not terribly unknown. It's kind of like a secret club. I would still like the music, yeah, but just as you, there would be something missing. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 14:16:44
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I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree. If someone producing good music makes it big (somehow) but is still making music for the sake of art and expression (as opposed to dollars and cents), then I say great. In the ideal world the name "Nickleback" and "Britney Spears" would have people saying, "Who? Never heard of them? What kind of music is it?" as opposed to people like Frank Black. But if we shun or give a negative association to good music that is successful, then we doom ourselves to the situation we're in now where only bad music can be popular. Of course, the reason such bands start to sound quite average is because in the commercial music scene when one band makes a big splash, every major label on the planet rushes out to sign anyone/anything that sounds remotely the same.
It's a twisted world we live in, but to deny true artists' the respect, credibility, and living they deserve because it makes us feel a bit better about ourselves that we know something that far too many people don't is probably not the best way to go about it. That said, I would probably feel the same way... I just try to fight that impulse. |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 14:49:15
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but i like the secrat club idea cof!
in your face, space coyote!! |
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Mike Rutherford
- FB Fan -
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 15:07:51
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I think a lot of the time, what happens is that bands that go from being independent to being big name acts listen to their labels and do and change certain things about their style to appeal to more people. I've heard many a band reminesce about their days on the major labels and the majors making them change various aspects of their songs and identity. And usually, that can work to make them appeal to the larger audiences, but at the same time it can alienate their die-hard fan base that was there from day one as well. I'm not saying it's this way with every band that goes from being indy to being a major success, but I guarantee you it's that way with well over 50% of em.
That's another thing I totally respect about Frank. When he was signed to American and he handed em the self titled Catholics album, American refused to release it, as it was too "raw" for em or some shit (or at least, that's how I've always heard the story). Frank obviously stuck to his guns and kept the album just as he wanted it at the price of losing the major label backing. That commands TOTAL respect from me.
Frank's not dumb in the least bit. He knows the shit that he's writing now has little chance to break through to any real singles club success. It's just not palatable or image friendly enough for the mass plastic music consumer market. People want what's on their MTV and radio pretty much follow's MTVs lead and has for quite some time. But Frank still writes the records he wants to write and plays what he wants to play. He goes out on the road and does it hands on, not with some big crew and ridiculous rider demands. And at the end of the day, I would say he makes money off of every record he puts out due to his no-bullshit, hands-on approach. (not to mention some pretty hefty royalty checks that Im sure he's still getting on a regular basis from sales of Pixies albums). Just think, he owns his own studio, so there's very little recording cost to recoup.......yeah, I would say ole Frank is doing really well for himself. |
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Pioneer
- FB Fan -
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 16:17:33
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I've wondered how well he does financially from album sales and touring. I'll take your word for how well he does, Mike Rutherford, simply because I'm utterly ignorant.
I guess we're all snobs concerning our musical tastes, eh? At times I feel like a cultural iconoclast, sure. At times I love music. At times I hate music. At times I can go wow when Gordon Lightfoot comes on and sings, "Picking through the pieces of my sweet and shattered dream." At times I wonder how much Daddy Dewdrop influenced The Pixies' "Boom Chickaboom." At times I wonder whether the truth is "in here" and not "out there." |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 17:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Pioneer
At times I wonder whether the truth is "in here" and not "out there."
If I get your drift, considering that everything a person thinks about everything occurs within the confines of a skull, "in here" sounds pretty good. Against that one could make a case that truths based in mathematics (including music?) exist (out there?) even when there is no mind to know them. But then I may be misunderstanding, and I'm almost certainly making too much of it, as I am known to do. |
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Pioneer
- FB Fan -
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 17:17:55
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| Yes, you're on the money, Erebus. Thanks. Of course, we have to deal with "out there" if we're to make strides as a society or, on a more personal level, have any sort of social relationships or whatever. And, yes, there surely is an "out there" that is independent of our perception of it. But appreciating art is purely subjective and, incrementally, "out there" has less significance to me, even though I did start the airplay thread. I struggle with any "communal" appreciation of art, and that's why I'm conflicted even about being a member of this forum. |
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thalassocrat
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
46 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 17:53:41
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..which seems to be nulified by your number of replies posted
they speak vaudevillian... |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 18:01:07
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| To be fair, the vast majority of that is planning my eventual dominion over the European Union. |
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sarah spinart
- FB Fan -
77 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 21:47:26
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| i'd feel gratified, joyous, and probably less poor. |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7441 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 01:12:29
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Ha! That's a funny one, Sarah.
Denis |
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bazza
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1439 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 04:49:28
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anyone know what FBs best selling album is? ill guess dog in the sand 
If you treat the people around you with love and respect, they will never guess that you're trying to get them sacked - David Brent |
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Scarla O
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 05:12:13
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I don't know but I'd guess his first album (self-titled)... |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 06:17:56
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It is dumb and arrogant to just like popular artists and to scoff at the independent artists. But it is just as dumb and arrogant to only like independent artists and to scoff at the popular artists.
Judge both equally. Otherwise, you are being completely close minded. Sure some bands change their sound to accomodate a wider audience. But to say that they all do is completely ludicrous. Radiohead, anyone? Beck? Neil Young? Tom Waits? I could go on and on. |
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Perhaps
- FB Fan -
133 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 07:03:15
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| I don't think it has as much to do with making judgments about the worth of an artist externally or internally. The thing I really like about the notion of FB's music (we all like the sound) is that I am not inundated with it at all times of day. That is what making it big is all about; smearing one's self all over the place. With FB you have a choice. Essentially you only hear him under your own volition. Plus the fact that there is almost always a perfect fit to the mood. But if not, you can choose not. |
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bazza
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1439 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 07:06:50
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well put
If you treat the people around you with love and respect, they will never guess that you're trying to get them sacked - David Brent |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 07:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Perhaps
I don't think it has as much to do with making judgments about the worth of an artist externally or internally. The thing I really like about the notion of FB's music (we all like the sound) is that I am not inundated with it at all times of day. That is what making it big is all about; smearing one's self all over the place.
... flashing your smile for the entire human race.
To be fair, though, you always have a choice... if you really don't want to hear something, change stations, etc. I suppose it's harder in a club/public setting, but if you were REALLY offended, you could always leave. |
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PsychicTwin
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1772 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 07:22:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Perhaps
I don't think it has as much to do with making judgments about the worth of an artist externally or internally. The thing I really like about the notion of FB's music (we all like the sound) is that I am not inundated with it at all times of day. That is what making it big is all about; smearing one's self all over the place. With FB you have a choice. Essentially you only hear him under your own volition. Plus the fact that there is almost always a perfect fit to the mood. But if not, you can choose not.
That is a damn good point. For example, the very first time I heard Queens of the Stone Age "No One Knows", I was utterly impressed. That is the song that made me say "wow, these guys are something special"....so I picked up one album, then another, finally all three.
Now, every time I hear the song I instinctively cringe. Why? Because I've heard it five billion fucking times, 99% of those being inadvertent and unavoidable via radio, Tv, movie ads, and the like. Trust the mass media to drain the fucking life out of something beautiful and beat a dead horse into a bloody pulp. It's marketing vampirism like this that I have a problem with.
In a way, I guess its a blessing for Frank to be free of this whole charade, and I think that there is a very pure aspect to his music in that it is his. His and his fans. And no one elses. That is a rare and wonderful thing indeed. |
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Mike Rutherford
- FB Fan -
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 09:29:12
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quote:
Judge both equally. Otherwise, you are being completely close minded. Sure some bands change their sound to accomodate a wider audience. But to say that they all do is completely ludicrous. Radiohead, anyone? Beck? Neil Young? Tom Waits? I could go on and on.
I don't think anyone said anything about ALL artist changing when they get on a major or reach a certain pinnacle in their career. And sometimes, even if they DO change, it's a change that they WANT to make, not one the label tries to force onto them to generate a wider audience. But some artists most definitely change as they label wants them to.
As for what Frank's biggest selling solo record is, I would definitely say the first one. It had quite a buzz surrounding it when it was released and MTV actually played Los Angeles somewhat frequently, both on Headbangers Ball and 120 Min. I remember Teenager was actually considered as somewhat of a flop when it came out, though I have no idea as to how the album has ended up doing since it's now reached "essential classic" status among a lot of Frank Black and indie music fans.
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 10:41:55
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| i'm pretty sure that the first album sold the most. i agree that the reason people, including myself dislike bands that get alot of airplay is because they are shoved down your throat. excellent bands like radiohead and queens of the stone age write really good music but you get bored of it because you hear it all the time, you never get the urge to play it at home because you have heard it all day. |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 11:35:00
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quote:
Originally posted by gracie
i agree that the reason people, including myself dislike bands that get alot of airplay is because they are shoved down your throat. excellent bands like radiohead and queens of the stone age write really good music but you get bored of it because you hear it all the time, you never get the urge to play it at home because you have heard it all day.
Geez, you make it sound like we don't have a choice. Switch the channel if you don't want to hear a certain song, or turn the radio off. The real truth of the matter is, unless Frank is transmitted over the major airwaves, most music fans do not have a choice to like him or hate him to begin with. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 12:23:43
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Exactly, I couldn't have put it better myself. Granted, there will always be people choosing what is played or what is not, and it seems that until the internet brings the RIAA to its knees and the music industry (yes, this is awful nomeclature) is forced to provide substance over, well, whatever it is they think they're providing now... not that people don't have a choice about whether they want to hear Frank or not, but rather, they (and we) have to go hunting for our music. People think that the best stuff ends up on the radio, and I do feel sad for them and their naivete/ignorance. There's so much good music out there, it's a shame the radio doesn't play more variety and get away from the loop-the-same-40-songs-as-fast-as-possible syndrome.
Anyway, I meant to simply agree with your main point which was that, if you don't like it (or feel like listening to it), then don't. You can always switch. |
Edited by - Cult_Of_Frank on 07/03/2003 12:24:33 |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 12:32:55
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quote:
Originally posted by gracie
i agree that the reason people, including myself dislike bands that get alot of airplay is because they are shoved down your throat. excellent bands like radiohead and queens of the stone age write really good music but you get bored of it because you hear it all the time, you never get the urge to play it at home because you have heard it all day.
Geez, you make it sound like we don't have a choice. Switch the channel if you don't want to hear a certain song, or turn the radio off. The real truth of the matter is, unless Frank is transmitted over the major airwaves, most music fans do not have a choice to like him or hate him to begin with. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 12:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by gracie
i'm pretty sure that the first album sold the most. i agree that the reason people, including myself dislike bands that get alot of airplay is because they are shoved down your throat. excellent bands like radiohead and queens of the stone age write really good music but you get bored of it because you hear it all the time, you never get the urge to play it at home because you have heard it all day.
Going off the point, I saw QOTSA this weekend at Roskilde and they were shite.... I love QOTSA and had high hopes that they would produce a show but they produced nothing...
Me, I love Franks music, and if he came successful then it would be a tribute to the music he writes..... Can't see him selling millions on a future album, but the best never see to get the recognition they deserve. Whatever Frank does, I'll still buy it.
War....... Its not fantastic |
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Pioneer
- FB Fan -
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 13:05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by thalassocrat
..which seems to be nulified by your number of replies posted
they speak vaudevillian...
Yes, like Cult of Frank suggested, I post pathetically off-topic most of the time, even trolled on my own thread yesterday. A new low. |
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Pioneer
- FB Fan -
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 19:11:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Perhaps
I don't think it has as much to do with making judgments about the worth of an artist externally or internally. The thing I really like about the notion of FB's music (we all like the sound) is that I am not inundated with it at all times of day. That is what making it big is all about; smearing one's self all over the place. With FB you have a choice. Essentially you only hear him under your own volition. Plus the fact that there is almost always a perfect fit to the mood. But if not, you can choose not.
What I was getting at is similar to what Cult Of Frank said. I idealize people who appreciate art in a fiercely independent way. Indie band? Fine. Top 40 band? Fine. If it moves you, that's what's important. We need to get over our prejudices. I enjoyed Natalie Imbruglia's "Torn" a few years back. Granted, she looked dynamite in the video and that had something to do with it, I'm sure, but the point is that you have to let yourself like what you like, no matter the category. Maybe people, especially younger folks, like to be part of a scene and view art differently than I do. Fine, but I idealize independence.
And by the way, I tend to appreciate "in here" artists over "out there" artists. "Out there" artists are your socio-political types and satirists. There's merit to those genres, for sure. But the artists who deal with internal turmoil in an egocentric way fascinate me more. The beauty of it is that when your egocentric exercise meets a receptive audience, it turns into a "cause greater than yourself." |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 04:33:35
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| you liked TORN? out, out, demons of commercial pop!!! :-) |
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Doryphore
- FB Fan -
Belgium
111 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 07:08:41
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| I liked Torn too. |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 07:51:09
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| Well guys, I must say, I'm all out of faith. Torn? TORN!?!?!? |
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bazza
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1439 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 08:35:40
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agreed about natalie imbruglia looking lovely in that video.
she used to be in the aussie soap 'neighbours' a good few years back.... ring a ding ding.
If you treat the people around you with love and respect, they will never guess that you're trying to get them sacked - David Brent |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 08:39:00
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| It looks like she's in the new Rowan Atkinson "Bean meets Bond" film Johnny English. Now I have two reasons to see it... |
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Pioneer
- FB Fan -
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 10:06:20
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| Interesting how some people reacted to the mention of "Torn," but weren't baited by the earlier Gordon Lightfoot mention. |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 10:09:54
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| Respect to the Lightfoot. |
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Pioneer
- FB Fan -
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 10:26:12
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| That is potentially the hippest thing ever written. |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 10:27:55
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| Momma always said I got potential. Then she would say, "the potential to get your ass kicked. Now do the damn dishes". |
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