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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2003 : 11:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by gracie
suggesting that kim owes her music career to frank seems to be based more in sexism than taste. the thought that kim as a women could be talented and have a career without the help of a man seems to really upset some of you.
This is a non sequitur. Nothing in this thread suggests this. Reminds of the response sometimes offered when one says one doesn't like Hillary Rodham Clinton because she's a lying criminal. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 13:16:53
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quote:
Originally posted by gracie
(snip) but this kim hating and suggesting that kim owes her music career to frank seems to be based more in sexism than taste. the thought that kim as a women could be talented and have a career without the help of a man seems to really upset some of you.
I'm a woman, I don't hate Kim, but I think she's extremely overrated. And it's not sexist that I think she's overrated. I will say this: I do believe that had it not been for the Pixies, (whether or not it was a man who fronted them is immaterial) Kim would still be busking at truck stops with Kelley. That's not a diss on Kim, its simply a fact of life. You make it in this business somewhat on talent (or lack of it!) but mostly on a)being in the right place at the right time and/or b)its not what you know how to do but who you know. If you don't think that true, then how to account for the commercial "failure" of Frank Black, Robyn Hitchcock, Lucinda Williams, etc., or the success of Britney Spears, Blink 182, and others.
Frankly, if I could put "Former Member of the Legendary <insert your generation's underground legends, be they the Pixies, the Velvets, etc>" on my musical resume, I would for all the doors it would open and anybody who says they wouldn't is either kidding themselves or outright lying.
Equally directly, I think Kim owes much of her success and popularity to a perception that "poor little Kim wasn't allowed to stretch her muscles in the Pixies" and some perceived rift between her and Chas, ("oh that mysogynist bastard Black Francis keeping a good woman down") and of course, this was all during that "Year of The Woman" crap during the early to mid 90s that had all sorts of "Womyn Musicians" get lots of attention due to their gender, regardless of any talent they may or may not have had. It was politically correct to like these "woman" bands. Yuck. All that "Year of the Woman" crap ever did was divert attention away from real talent and cause (in many cases, justifiable) resentment from men (and women) who couldv'e succeeded without this perceived "handicap." (Lilith Fair -- Bleccccchhhh! Sarah, you're too good to lean on these "poor little woman me" crutches!) I don't think Kim intentionally ever fed this, but she has profited handsomely from some quasi-feminist "rise of the phoenix" payback thing wherein Kim outsells, outdraws, and out-hips FB&the Cs. So, actually, if there's man/woman hating and perception of such, it seems Kim has profited from it more than suffered from it.
Actually, I'll argue that Last Splash did well because "Cannonball" was a catchier than hell song that was marketed correctly and came at the right time. That's not gender specific at all. It too is a fact of life.
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 20:07:19
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This thread is going way too far from my intentions...It was not about who do you like best Frank or Kim or about who was bulling who in the pixies...And i absolutely do not hate Kim Deal...Pretty much the contrary since i buy her records even if they are not that good...Then the sexist atitude towards the breeders was really a stupid thing to say...Gracie wake up we are in 2003 not in 1968...Nobody cares if you are a Man or a Woman nowadays...
www.munchienandalusia.too.it |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 03:24:44
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I agree, the sexist thing is just rubbish. Gracie, are you a feminist by any chance? Certainly sounds like it.
How sad would it be if someone cared whether it was a guy or a girl they listened to. I'm a huge fan of Throwing Muses, and Juliana Hatfield. They produce music ten times better than Kim. Kim is over rated in my opinion, that doesn't mean to say that I hate her, and it doesn't make me a sexist.
War....... Its not fantastic |
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Leah
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 05:07:19
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LOVE THE BREEDERS!
Met Kim and Kelley and the both RULE!
That said I have yet to hear the seb bach/Kelley reccid but am now intrigued.
I think the Breeders suffer from people being less interested in their present music and more into the whole "does anyone actually rate them as musicians without knowledge of the pixies tie-in"
Somehow I think that whole agenda works against them which is really sad...
I adore the Safari EP most of all - simply cos don't call home reminds me of what Gigantic could have been if Kim had been allowed greater influence...
Every choice human being strives instinctively for a citadel and a secrecy where he is saved from the crowd -
Nietzsche |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 05:38:47
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| by saying things like "are you a femimist " doesn't do you any favours.what do you mean by that?. i like kim, its got nothing to do with the fact she's a women, i don't like her because i feel that i should support a fellow women. nor do i believe that frank is an evil women hating oppressor. my point was that some of the comments aimed towards kim were suggesting that she only made it because of the pixies and frank was the lynch pin therefore kim owes her career to frank. i think that is incorrect. if you don't like the breeders because there not to your taste- thats fine, you're entitled to your own opinion just the same as i'm entitled to disagree. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 05:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
Gracie, are you a feminist by any chance? Certainly sounds like it.
And what if she is? Depends on your definition of the word "Feminist". Like feminism is a bad thing. I consider myself to be a feminist, but I'm not a feminazi: I don't defend women simply because they're women, but simply wish that women would get rated/judged, etc., in their respective careers, roles, whatever as their male peers.
I think some people define "feminist" as those "man-hating, bra-burning" whatevers... and I guess I'm a bit offended by that. That definition is largely perpetuated by those who are threatened by the true feminist agenda: the idea that women should have equal opportunity and rights. As a feminist, I never ask for special treatment, only equal. Special treatment only breeds the resentment that I describe here.
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 06:49:47
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quote:
Originally posted by mun chien andalusia
Gracie wake up we are in 2003 not in 1968...Nobody cares if you are a Man or a Woman nowadays...
Boy here I am, seemingly trouncing on Gracie, and now I seem to be doing a flip flop... but I will also argue that sexism does indeed exist, in a more subversive and insidious way today than it did in 1968. I would suggest YOU wake up and spend some time in corporate Amerika, and you will see the existence of the good ol boys' club in full swing, Carly Fiorina and Kathy Hudson notwithstanding. For that matter, spend some time in Washington DC.
Sexism exists, big time, but my point was that not necessarily in this particular case, and that in fact, some women, such as Kim Deal, are profiting from a perceived[b] sexism. I want to stress that I don't believe Kim feeds this specifically, but its there and its annoying, because this (as this thread has proven) serves only to cover up the fact that there ARE indeed issues with mysogyny and sexism, (and in many cases, in the form of backlash). My issue with Gracie was that I don't think this (at least here, I'm sure that Kim does suffer from some gender based hatred, but I don't think its here, at least not in this thread).
To tell you the truth, I think music is one of the FEW places where gender doesn't make a difference, although I will concede that women musicians and men musicians are marketed quite differently. But that's a whole 'nuther can 'o' worms. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 07:06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by gracie
by saying things like "are you a femimist " doesn't do you any favours.what do you mean by that?.
Deary me. I was only poking fun at you, don't be so serious! I thought the sexist argument was ridiculous so I dropped a jokey post in reply. I suppose it could have been misinterpretted though.
For your information, I really don't think that many people on this forum hate Kim, I'd say the opposite to be honest.... you seem to be the only one talking about Kim haters.
War....... Its not fantastic |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 14:17:53
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but now she's playing gigantic, it seems. but some guy once shouted for debaser. what was she gonna do? deadpan a repeated 'debaseeeeeeeer' for 3 minutes?
are any pixies fans here a fan cos they heard the breeders?*raises hand*.
in your face, space coyote!! |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 14:33:39
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oops, i only read the first page.
y'know, everyone is like 'ooh, kim sucked the sacred pixies cow dry with her commercial success' but if you think about it, it was probably commercial suicide to follow up a millions-selling record with an album by a totally different band name, and i dont think that much marketing was used on pacer, that sed i could be wrong. and then they didnt release anything for another 7 yrs!
as for being overrated, its not kim's fault is it? and if someone likes it, why would they care what other people think? good or bad?
as for feminism, i'm just a lazy bitch who doesnt bother to speak out for her 'sistas' (well, except kim) but i dont think feminism is a really bad thing, despite kim's pet peeve with it.
i think, despite being in the 21st century, sexism is still in the back of people's minds, just look at the majority of exclusive golf clubs, who only let women in on certain days, or dont let them in at all.
i mean, look at the guy before who said he couldn't stand 'girl singers'? he doesnt even want to see what they have created, or what they are tryin to achieve?
i guess kim could be overrated, but i am blinded by my love for her. yes, love. i question my heterosexuality because of her!!
in your face, space coyote!! |
Edited by - Brackish Girl on 06/10/2003 14:35:40 |
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Pioneer
- FB Fan -
213 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 16:10:00
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If girls are allowed to join the all-dude golf clubs, then I want to join an all-girl health club. Well, not really, 'cause I hate pilates and latin aerobic dancing and all that crap.
Pat Benatar used to receive lots of attention for being a rock chick. Then Joan Jett & Go Go's & Bangles (female Beatles). I thought we were over all that before the year of the woman. That's an eye-opener for me, blackpurse. Well, actually, we've had Fluffy (girl punk), Courtney Love (girl grunge), and what's that recent band's name? Kitten? Kitty? You know, that thrashing metal group? Some of these bands still emerge as novelties, I guess. |
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PsychicTwin
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1772 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 16:56:56
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L7 = a "girl band" that kicks fucking major ass. They arguably gained the success/notoriety they did because they were part of that early 90's "rock chick" wave.
But I love them, and I think they kick ass and their music is awesome. Nothing to do with them being female. |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 23:51:54
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
quote:
Originally posted by mun chien andalusia
Gracie wake up we are in 2003 not in 1968...Nobody cares if you are a Man or a Woman nowadays...
I would suggest YOU wake up and spend some time in corporate Amerika, and you will see the existence of the good ol boys' club in full swing, Carly Fiorina and Kathy Hudson notwithstanding. For that matter, spend some time in Washington DC.
Jesus Christ!You "femminists" have to see the Maschilist Satan everywhere don't you?Who cares about corporate America and who the hell are Carly Fiorina and Kathy Hudson?I will repeat for the last time that this thread was about music and not about Kim Deal as a person man,woman or gay!Stop using this cheap femminist politics to cover up every single thing that goes wrong in this world.I suppose you are happy that Britney sells millions of records and Cond.Rice rules the destiny of the world since they are women don't you?
www.munchienandalusia.too.it |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 05:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by mun chien andalusia
Jesus Christ!You "femminists" have to see the Maschilist Satan everywhere don't you?Who cares about corporate America and who the hell are Carly Fiorina and Kathy Hudson?I will repeat for the last time that this thread was about music and not about Kim Deal as a person man,woman or gay!Stop using this cheap femminist politics to cover up every single thing that goes wrong in this world.I suppose you are happy that Britney sells millions of records and Cond.Rice rules the destiny of the world since they are women don't you?
www.munchienandalusia.too.it
You sure do make a lot of assumptions, don't you? First off, if you think that simply by starting a thread you can (or should even think you have the right to) demand where the thread goes, (sounds like you're whining because people are discussing something YOU disagree with!) you're in for a world of hurt on the 'net in general. You posted with a question that basically asks "Do you like the Breeders? Why or why not?" -- and you seemed to be wanting an analysis as to what people saw in them, since your post indicated you didn't like them that much, but you were wanting people's feelings about on the Breeders, and perhaps wanting to understand what people saw in them that perhaps you did or did not see. That pretty much called for analysis. Any analysis/discussion about the Breeders -- a band comprised almost completely of women, whose lyrics often touch on what might be termed "women's issues" (abortions, motherhood, blowjobs from the woman's perspective, menstruation, etc), heck even their name references (an inevitably naturally consequence of) sexuality -- is going to inevitably bring up issues of whether or not gender plays a role in their success, popularity, credibility, (or lack of it). Sounds like you didn't like some of the answers, so now you're lashing out. Did you want this to be a series of "I like 'em" "I don't like 'em" posts with absolutely no meat in them? Sorry, there's too many analytical, thoughtful people on this forum to keep it that simple -- and your original post did not warrant a simple answer.
Second, it really sounds like you didn't bother to read any of my posts where I define where I'm coming from, or how I (or many people) define feminism. You just saw something that seems to threaten you deeply and now you're demanding I "stop using cheap feminist politics" to cover up things, which I never did. I just pointed out that if you think (which you seem to do) that all the problems associated with sexist thought (and that goes both ways, as our friend Billgoodman pointed out in another thread) do not exist in 2003, you are probably not getting out much. Or you're so enconsed in your little world (you're probably using one of the products Fiorina's firm makes to even talk to us here) that you don't want to see what's going on in Washington DC, Corporate America, East Jesus Kansas, or any amount of places where sexism, racism, or many other bigotry/predjudicial issues are alive and kicking.
And no, contrary to your (incorrect) supposition, I am not happy that Britney sells millions of records, (although Condeleeza Rice does NOT rule the destiny of the world, she reports to Dick Chaney, who irks me as well). I should like to point out that Spears' career is pretty much designed and dictated by whatHISname, the same GUY who put together those annoying Backstreet Boys and N'Sync. And I'm sure there are women working on his staff, and let's face it, a good portion of that fan base is girls. Dreck comes in all genders!
As for denying sexism, methinks you doth protest too much.
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Edited by - blackpurse on 06/11/2003 05:19:04 |
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 06:27:56
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
quote:
Originally posted by mun chien andalusia
Jesus Christ!You "femminists" have to see the Maschilist Satan everywhere don't you?Who cares about corporate America and who the hell are Carly Fiorina and Kathy Hudson?I will repeat for the last time that this thread was about music and not about Kim Deal as a person man,woman or gay!Stop using this cheap femminist politics to cover up every single thing that goes wrong in this world.I suppose you are happy that Britney sells millions of records and Cond.Rice rules the destiny of the world since they are women don't you?
www.munchienandalusia.too.it
You sure do make a lot of assumptions, don't you? First off, if you think that simply by starting a thread you can (or should even think you have the right to) demand where the thread goes, (sounds like you're whining because people are discussing something YOU disagree with!) you're in for a world of hurt on the 'net in general. You posted with a question that basically asks "Do you like the Breeders? Why or why not?" -- and you seemed to be wanting an analysis as to what people saw in them, since your post indicated you didn't like them that much, but you were wanting people's feelings about on the Breeders, and perhaps wanting to understand what people saw in them that perhaps you did or did not see. That pretty much called for analysis. Any analysis/discussion about the Breeders -- a band comprised almost completely of women, whose lyrics often touch on what might be termed "women's issues" (abortions, motherhood, blowjobs from the woman's perspective, menstruation, etc), heck even their name references (an inevitably naturally consequence of) sexuality -- is going to inevitably bring up issues of whether or not gender plays a role in their success, popularity, credibility, (or lack of it). Sounds like you didn't like some of the answers, so now you're lashing out. Did you want this to be a series of "I like 'em" "I don't like 'em" posts with absolutely no meat in them? Sorry, there's too many analytical, thoughtful people on this forum to keep it that simple -- and your original post did not warrant a simple answer.
Second, it really sounds like you didn't bother to read any of my posts where I define where I'm coming from, or how I (or many people) define feminism. You just saw something that seems to threaten you deeply and now you're demanding I "stop using cheap feminist politics" to cover up things, which I never did. I just pointed out that if you think (which you seem to do) that all the problems associated with sexist thought (and that goes both ways, as our friend Billgoodman pointed out in another thread) do not exist in 2003, you are probably not getting out much. Or you're so enconsed in your little world (you're probably using one of the products Fiorina's firm makes to even talk to us here) that you don't want to see what's going on in Washington DC, Corporate America, East Jesus Kansas, or any amount of places where sexism, racism, or many other bigotry/predjudicial issues are alive and kicking.
And no, contrary to your (incorrect) supposition, I am not happy that Britney sells millions of records, (although Condeleeza Rice does NOT rule the destiny of the world, she reports to Dick Chaney, who irks me as well). I should like to point out that Spears' career is pretty much designed and dictated by whatHISname, the same GUY who put together those annoying Backstreet Boys and N'Sync. And I'm sure there are women working on his staff, and let's face it, a good portion of that fan base is girls. Dreck comes in all genders!
As for denying sexism, methinks you doth protest too much.
You know what, methinks you talk too much. |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 08:04:30
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You know what, methinks you talk too much.
[/quote]
True...It was just a music question though...
www.munchienandalusia.too.it |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 13:37:05
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did anyone else notice that whenever kim gets mention some sort of argument breaks out?
a gigantic argument *guffaws*. i'll shut up now.
in your face, space coyote!! |
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 13:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Brackish Girl
i'll shut up now.
in your face, space coyote!!
That'll be the day  |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 14:18:16
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says you.
in your face, space coyote!! |
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Golly
- FB Fan -
Sweden
51 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 14:47:14
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| Songs like Divine Hammer, Saints and Full on Idle are genious, if you don't agree please be so kind to hold your breath until i say so |
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greg
- FB Fan -
Canada
159 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 14:50:22
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| Good one For you Brackish!!! |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2003 : 13:19:18
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thanks, i think. you could be being sarcastic... oh great swimmer is now going to say something else. well, he mightn't now i said this, the big wuss.
in your face, space coyote!! |
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benji
> Teenager of the Year <
New Zealand
3426 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2003 : 07:38:34
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what a crazy discussion....
i think it is naive suggesting that kim's popularity is based on the pixies success. sure some people will be interested because of the connection, but this is more apparent with regard to franks solo stuff.
but you are right, kim was in the right place at the right time when the pixies started up, but why and how should you hold that against her? in the beginning none of the pixies were particularly brilliant as musicians, so kim was hardly out of her depth or anything....
and i don't think you can compare the breeders albums to the pixies ones - just like people get pissed when franks stuff is compared to pixies stuff - it's just so different.
me personally, i like the breeders stuff.
i would rate pod up there with surfer rosa and doolite as fucking great records...says nothing about similarities in style or whatnot - they're just fucking great records.
let the debate continue. |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2003 : 16:05:42
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quote:
Originally posted by benji
what a crazy discussion....
i think it is naive suggesting that kim's popularity is based on the pixies success. sure some people will be interested because of the connection, but this is more apparent with regard to franks solo stuff.
but you are right, kim was in the right place at the right time when the pixies started up, but why and how should you hold that against her? in the beginning none of the pixies were particularly brilliant as musicians, so kim was hardly out of her depth or anything....
and i don't think you can compare the breeders albums to the pixies ones - just like people get pissed when franks stuff is compared to pixies stuff - it's just so different.
me personally, i like the breeders stuff.
i would rate pod up there with surfer rosa and doolite as fucking great records...says nothing about similarities in style or whatnot - they're just fucking great records.
let the debate continue.
sir, i salute you. everything you just said is true and fair.
in your face, space coyote!! |
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DruggedBunny
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
395 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2003 : 05:52:21
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I like the Breeders & the Amps, though not as much as Frank/Pixies. I also like the Kelley Deal 6000 albums (good, slightly surreal girlie tunes, quite a few of which are not what you'd expect). BTW Tons of Breeders mp3s & stuff here, with loads of rare demos (including the Breeders doing Silver): www.noaloha.com
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2003 : 13:39:25
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mmm... that silver is so much better. its not really 'the breeders do silver' tho,they did it first. i cannot get the kd6k albums, but i will be able soon, in (adopts russian accent, a la 'an american tail') ameeeeericaa!
in your face, space coyote!! |
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benji
> Teenager of the Year <
New Zealand
3426 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2003 : 14:06:13
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yeah, the breeders do do silver better....
but then the demo of silver is much better imo than the album version as well....
maybe they just didn't get it right. |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2003 : 14:26:55
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yeah? oh well, its just annoying everyone hates the doolittle version, therefore hating the song altogether. stupid high pitched frank ;p!
rave on is one of my fave breeders songs. its only flawed by having no kim singing in it. safari and head to toe are great songs, its annoying i cant get those eps!
in your face, space coyote!! |
Edited by - Brackish Girl on 06/17/2003 14:30:42 |
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ingersoll
- FB Fan -
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2003 : 14:27:34
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i dont care for the breeders, but the amps album is fucking amazing. "i have decided" is one of my all-time favorite songs.
before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. that way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2003 : 14:37:25
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yeah, 'i am decided', 'dedicated', she's a girl' and 'bragging party' are all big contenders for my fave songs of all time( might not be saying much, with my limited list).
that song was co-written with bob pollard, ingersoll.
in your face, space coyote!! |
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therewererumours
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1240 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2003 : 14:40:43
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Funny you just mentioned Rave On BG, I just downloaded it today. Really good song, I wonder why they never realesed it? But I have to say Pixies Silver is always going to be my favorite. I love that, whats it called? You Always Hang Around/Divine Hammer song! It's like a much more summery version of DH. I always think Tipp Citys about Tipperary for some reason and some of the album was engineered in Dublin! Yey!
"I meet a man with no little toe and a real big head" |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2003 : 15:02:20
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yeah, i love you always hang around! that was one of the first pod demos i downloaded. i got a shock when i heard the dh riff in it!
same with me and the tipp city. did you hear the amps interview on noaloha? its on the amps sub-site. she's really enthusiastic about dublin(well, a little...)
in your face, space coyote!! |
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benji
> Teenager of the Year <
New Zealand
3426 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2003 : 19:45:38
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ya can download a re-recorded version of "Pacer" from
http://www.fedge.net/rare/bonus.html
it's much better than the album version - much crisper....
well i just like it better... |
Edited by - benji on 06/17/2003 19:46:51 |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2003 : 16:04:54
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aint that the single version? hey, i saw this on noaloha...the internet rocks, i dont care what kim says...
in your face, space coyote!! |
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