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Jettison
- FB Fan -
USA
228 Posts |
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velvety
= Cult of Ray =
Portugal
536 Posts |
 Posted - 05/08/2003 : 08:34:28
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American Life - Warner Bros. 2003.
I've been writing this review site for more than seven years. I'll be the first to admit I took a couple years off in the middle there, but more or less one can kind of lie and say that I've been doing it for seven years. Lucky 13!!! Heh heh heh. Yes, and in all that time I've heard some truly horrendous, unlistenable records - records that rate at the very bottom of a metric 1-10 scale. Your Metal Machine Music, your Y Kant Tori Read -- heck, on this page alone, Madonna has scored a couple of 1s. But in all my years of reviewing - from the beginning of the 20th century clear through to the end of the 21st -- I never expected to come across an album with such a volative mixture of uncreative melody, embarrassing production and offensive, moronic lyricism that it would physically bust through the bottom of my scale and force my wife to design a graphic for "ZERO." After all, how would one go about getting a ZERO on a scale of 1 to 10? Genius that she is, Madonna has figured it out!
You know, a lot has happened since Madonna released her last shitty album. Let's see -- hmm. Well, there was that terrorist attack that killed a few thousand people in HER FORMER HOMETOWN. Yes there was that. Then there was that darned recession - STILL going on - that has left millions out of work while our president's business friends continue to steal more and more money for themselves. Oh yes! And then there was a war! A war in which we dropped bombs on the poverty-stricken and widowed many, many Iraqi women (killed some too). Throughout all this, we've been dealing with daily terrorist fears exacerbated by our monstrous administration and the five media companies that suck government cock every day of the year. This is a dangerous time to be an American -- and an even MORE dangerous time to live in a country that America doesn't like. Not only are you poor as dirt, but there's a good chance you're going to be buried under six feet of it within the next 12 months so Bush can keep our minds off of the economy he can't fix because he's a fucking retard.
So what does Madonna do? Well, let me put it this way -- you can tell me every fag, junglebunny and kike joke in the world and none of it is going to offend me anywhere NEAR as much as listening to some dumb rich cunt bitching and moaning about how much her life sucks for 50 fucking minutes. Before I delve into her poetry, let me preface this attack by saying that I certainly understand why an artist might choose not to address depressing social issues in their work. Entertainment is entertainment, after all, and lots of us turn to it for an escape from the disturbing reality we're experiencing. But that's not what American Life is. It is NOT escapist entertainment. It is Madonna presenting a series of dark, minor-key, UNHAPPY songs about how fake and plastic the entertainment business is and how it's not enough to make her happy. Hopefully I speak for the majority of Americans when I say BOO FUCKING HOO.
Let's start with track 1, "American Life." Aside from being almost inarguably the least catchy single Madonna has ever released, this song within the first thirty seconds makes it clear exactly how far out of touch Madonna is with real life. "Do I have to change my name? Will it get me far? Should I lose some weight? Am I gonna be a star?" THIS is American life in 2003? Who thinks like this now? Aside from the most narcissistic brain-dead failed actor, I can't imagine ANYBODY over the age of 13 seriously considering these to be important worries at this particular juncture in history. How about "Will there be any available jobs for me when I graduate college?" or "Will I ever be able to get out of this ghetto without being murdered by 'gangstas'?" or "Where is my family supposed to live now that I've been laid off and have no retirement money because the executives of my company stole all of it?"
But it gets much, MUCH worse later in the song, during the first of many unbelievably poorly conceived and humiliatingly executed raps performed by Madonna in a quite racist fake negro accent. "I got a lawyer and a manager, an agent and a chef," she brags. "Three nannies, an assistant and a driver and a jet, a trainer and a butler and a bodyguard or five, a gardener and a stylist..." before delivering the most horrifically thoughtless conclusion possible -- "Do you think I'm satisfied?"
Well, it must be nice to have the luxury to be UNSATISFIED with billions of dollars in the bank and people waiting on you hand and foot. Unfortunately, most of us actually have to work for a living - and many of us don't even have the opportunity to do that. How about asking yourself if your three nannies and assistant are satisfied? Or if your gardener and butler are satisfied? How about writing a song that doesn't include the word "I" at least forty times? Not this time. This is Madonna's time to whine about the trials of the rich -- which, I might add, is exactly what she did on Ray Of Light. And the most disturbing part is that she thinks she's speaking as a HUMAN. She's sure that she's one of US now. She has NO IDEA what being a person is like! How could she? She hasn't had a real problem in about thirty years! (My wife adds, "She hasn't had a decent SONG in about thirty years either!).
So what else does she offer on this magnum dopus: Next is "Hollywood," a quite obvious attempt to make excuses for her seemingly endless string of unsuccessful movies. "Everybody comes to Hollywood/They wanna make it in the neighbourhood/They like the smell of it in Hollywood/How could it hurt you when it looks so good?" Guess the critical reaction to "Swept Away" wasn't all she was expecting? Must be because Hollywood is cruel; couldn't be that she's a boring actress.
Next is "I'm So Stupid," which must be the tenth or twelfth song she's recorded about how materialistic and selfish she USED to be, and thank God she isn't anymore. Now she understands what's really important in life. That's why she feels the need to tell us this, over and over again. Almost as if it were a new IDENTITY that she was trying to slip into. Unfortunately, "honesty," "integrity" and "compassion" are not costumes that you can slip on and off like a bustier with gold-tipped nipples. And I'm sorry, no matter how many times she says it, I simply don't BELIEVE her when she claims, "I'm so stupid/Cause I use to live/In a tiny bubble/And I wanted to be/Like all the pretty people/That were all around me/But now I know for sure/That I was stupid." I'm not going to make a judgment call about whether Madonna is stupid or not -- but she is quite clearly as self-delusional as anybody else you're going to find in the entertainment industry. And what can you say about a person too dim to realize what even FRED DURST is able to figure out -- that American life has changed and celebrities at least have to make an effort to LOOK like they give a shit about other people?
Moving on, we come to another shallow introspection piece called "Nobody Knows Me." Well, first of all, as she has made evident for at least the past ten years of her career, there's not a whole lot to know. Monstrous ego, insatiable thirst for attention -- and that about covers it! And secondly, I don't suppose I have to explain to you exactly how it feels to hear this self-satisfied multi-billionaire sing, "I sleep much better at night/I feel closer to the light/Now I'm gonna try/To improve my life." I, I, I, my.
Pardon me one second while I count how many times Madonna uses first-person pronouns on this 50-minute release.
"American Life" = 62
"Hollywood" = 6
"I'm So Stupid" = 24
"Love Profusion" = 67
"Nobody Knows Me" = 68
"Nothing Fails" = 26
"Intervention" = 27
"X-Static Process" = 60
"Mother And Father" = 71
"Die Another Day" = 55
"Easy Ride " = 34.
Well, they say write what you know. And Madonna is all Madonna knows. Or cares about. So why shouldn't she refer to herself 507 times in 50 minutes? That's more than 10 times per minute. That means that Madonna is attempting to show that she is no longer selfish and one-dimensional -- by making a verbal reference to herself EVERY SIX SECONDS FOR THE ENTIRE CD.
There is much more about this album that repulses me. There's that fucking irritating vocal effect (the one from "Die Another Day" and about six trillion other interchangeable female-sung dance/pop songs) that I'd hoped she'd gotten enough of on Music, but no! Let's take that already-tired gimmick and use it another fifty times! After all, how could anybody get sick of hearing your sung notes flick up and down electronically, sucking out any ounce of personality your voice had left (which wasn't much anyway -- CHRIST, what happened to that peppy young girl that sang "Lucky Star"!?!?)? Then there's all the acoustic guitar playing, which is intended (I guess) to sound folky and "genuine," but ends up coming across as gimmicky and boring because the producer just samples four seconds of playing and repeats it over and over again rather than actually having a guitarist in the room during the session. There's even the fact that NONE of the songs come even CLOSE to catchy, relying instead on boring, lifeless minor-key crap for nearly all eleven songs. But I want to go watch Rollerball (the original one -- I watched High Plains Drifter last night and it KICKED ASS!!!!) and hopefully I've made my point clear by NOW. So instead I'd like to close with the biggest self-deception of all. The kind of lyric that only an inexcusably comfortable out-of-touch old sloth would even CONSIDER having the gall to utter in a song that will be heard by millions and millions of normal average people who have to work 40 or more hours a week just to keep their heads above water. Am I really the only one that wants to break into Madonna's bank account and give ALL of her money to her poor fan base when she announces, "I want the good life/But I don't want an easy ride/What I want is to work for it/Feel the blood and sweat on my fingertips/That's what I want for me."
Go ahead, read it again. Read what one of the richest human beings on the planet sings to y ou WITH A STRAIGHT FACE on her new CD. Go ahead. Read it again and again and again, and then tell me how you -- how ANYONE -- could listen to this CD without wanting to throw the fucking thing (if not the fucking WOMAN) through a plate glass window? Is it really all that different from that episode of the Simpsons where billionaire Montgomery Burns claims, "Being waited on hand and foot might be okay for the average Joe, but not for me!" (that was a paraphrase, but it was close).
Madonna has no idea what American life is like. She only knows what the life of a spoiled celebrity is like. Five years ago, I would have let her get off easy with a grade of 2 or 3. But not now. This is a pre-9/11 album in a post-9/11 world. We don't care anymore, Madonna. And I'm speaking directly to you because I know that you're totally always checking out my Madonna reviews to see if people are adding any comments. |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2003 : 16:28:15
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| I didn't read this whole review...but holy shit man. I saw some of her MTV performance with Carson and they played some of the song clips...holy shit was it ever sad and pathetic. She looked horrible, she's like 60 and trying to be hip. The lyrics were utter trash. She needs to give up on music, QUICKLIKE. |
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cindy lou
- FB Fan -
141 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 00:43:44
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| cindy lou agrees |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 07:59:42
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Oh boy, I'm so surprised that MADONNA turned out to be such a narcissist!
I think she should return to her roots, that is, return to porn.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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PsychicTwin
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1772 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 08:18:43
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| it's no new to me that Madonna sucks the big one! When did she ever have any artistic or musical integrity beyond mindless shit-pop? |
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Itchload
= Cult of Ray =
USA
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 08:23:28
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| her first 3 albums have kind of a camp-new wave novelty value, she started sucking when she got serious |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6194 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 10:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by velvety
This is a pre-9/11 album in a post-9/11 world.
am I the only one who is tired of all the 9/11 references in every thing on this planet? I mean not that I can't see it is a major black day in History, I don't want to discuss that or anything. I was shocked and I'm still shocked.
But when I was reading this phrase in the review I felt sorry for Madonna, it's almost like the author blames Madonna for insulting people who have lost family or friends in the terrible event.
I think he had a point during the whole review and I hate the new single (the only thing I've heard from that album) as much as he does (the rap thing is really bad). But he had enough arguments and enough dislikes to bring madonna down. Why does he have to bring up 9/11? A bit too radical, in my opinion. It's music and not politics... Of course Madonna doesn't see that either, she shouldn't sing those things, but to me it has nothing to do with 9/11 or anything....
''it's not a box, it's a submarine'' |
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PsychicTwin
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1772 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 11:43:03
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yeah, i'm also kind of tired of people referring to the "pre-" and "post-9/11 world"...as if American is the "whole world". Ok, it was a tremendous tragedy and a dark milestone in the history of our country, but to think that our tragedy defines the "world" as a whole when there are countless instances of mass murder and political genocide (many which dwarf our WTC tragedy in terms of casualty numbers, both literally and relatively) taking place every single day reeks of ethnocentric ignorance to me.
I guess I'm not that affected by Madonna's new wannabe-political output because I don't expect her to have anything worthwhile or politically moving to say in the first place. |
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Perhaps
- FB Fan -
133 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 14:23:01
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| that day or not, maybe he is just trying to come up with some explanation for her album, that crummy picture, or the ensuing sales of either |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 19:45:16
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Maybe we should reset the calendar... B911 and A911...
That was a hilarious review..hahahaha.. It's no surprised how self-centered she is. The first-person pronoun count is the best thing in a review i've seen this year..hahahaha |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2003 : 04:17:00
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| she is also responsible for the worst james bond song ever. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2003 : 05:20:45
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Madonna is crap, but I wouldn't mind getting my hands on that porno she did when she was just getting famous..... she was pretty fit back then until she started growing muscles and looking generally like a man.
International Air Guitar Hitman |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2003 : 08:56:00
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i can't believe there's actually discussion about whether or not Madonna sucks..
i didn't read the whole thing, but i agree with Bill Goodman.. the 911 angle is pointless..
also, the whole thing about people in a post-911 world not caring about losing weight or being a star is kind of ridiculous.. where has he been living? people are just as shallow and image-conscious as they were pre-911 (myself included), and shows like American Idol are popular as ever.. it's not like all of a sudden, after 911, everyone in the US has joined a monastary or something.. i don't think artists have any responsibility to reflect social issues or get political.. if she want's to write shallow, narcissictic songs, that's her perogative.. they still suck, but she shouldn't be criticized for not writing more "post-911" appropriate material..
whatever..
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2003 : 18:12:55
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In some ways it's an accomplishment for Madonna that we're even HAVING this discussion about her artistic merit.
Personally, I think her 80's singles are really good, but she had very little to do with that. Like a Prayer is awesome, but she didn't write the song. She just came in and did what she was told to by her producer (whom she then humped.) Any half assed "singer" off the street could have done the same on a musical level. As a self promoter and marketer of an image I think we can all agree that she is a genius. Britney Spears won't be around in 20 years, that's for damn sure.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2003 : 13:11:02
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| I pitty the people who associate with her...imagine spending a day with this delusional egomaniac? Must be pretty surreal... |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 05:03:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Atheist4Catholics
In some ways it's an accomplishment for Madonna that we're even HAVING this discussion about her artistic merit.
Personally, I think her 80's singles are really good, but she had very little to do with that. Like a Prayer is awesome, but she didn't write the song. She just came in and did what she was told to by her producer (whom she then humped.) Any half assed "singer" off the street could have done the same on a musical level. As a self promoter and marketer of an image I think we can all agree that she is a genius. Britney Spears won't be around in 20 years, that's for damn sure.
www.mp3.com/clootie
Thanks for posting this. I also agree that people are just as shallow pre and post 911 -- shit, people were back to being shallow within two weeks. They just commemorated 911 in a shallow way. I think a bunch of us here need to get out of our ivory towers and remember that MOST people in teh real world indeed worry about their skin tone and whether they have cellulite and what kind of cars they drive. I work in cubicle hell in a fairly large organization and I'm probably the only person on my floor who's even HEARD of Frank Black or 90% of the artists who are discussed here.
I get disturbed when I read that "Madonna should keep her nose out of politics." Oh, then only duly-anointed *artistes* have a right to their opinion, and a right to express it? Only people who play to an intellectual elite should be allowed to express their thoughts. Uh, ever hear of irony?
No this album isn't Madonna's best, but it seems very fashionable to diss her simply because she's mainstream. And a la the Dixie Chicks, she was originally gutsy with teh original video she had for American Life, I actually lost a little respect for her when she chickened out and pulled it. C'mon Madonna, maybe a few flag-waving republicans might boycott you, but your core fan base of left-leaning drag queens, overgrown wannabees, etc., isn't leaving you for Cher anytime soon.
I photographed a "Madonna Look Alike" contest a few weekends ago -- by seeing contestants of all shapes sizes, and socioeconomic backgrounds (and only 2 drag queens in the bunch!) its clear that MAdonna has had a major impact on(or reflects in a major way)popular culture. I can't honestly say that someone who has had this impact "has alwasy sucked big time."
For the record, I hated her at first, too, but she won me over with "Like a Prayer" as well. OK, she's not rock and roll, but she's responsible for some great dance tunes. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 08:44:15
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I like so Madonna tunes like that cowboy one Don't Tell Me. Of course a lot of the stuff is just shite. But as for Madonna herself,
I like her (somewhat). Mostly for only a couple of reasons. One is that she could look and act like the sluttiest of sluts but I still respect her. She seems to 'own' her sexuality (as much as she can) whereas others just do not. I would rather have my daughter look upto Madonna than Britney Spears. She represents strong women with minds of their own and opinions of their own. Sexuality is not bad, its good, when you are in control of your own sexuality.
As for money, someone is going to get rich on pop. I would hope she donates alot of her money to a good cause. Also, you could have all the money in the world and not be happy (ok I'll get corny here) that comes from within. |
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KingOfSiam
- FB LinkMaster -
USA
460 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 10:10:20
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I'm quite sure all of her money gets donated to a good cause, carolynanna - HERSELF!!!!
As soon as she starts looking "old" I am certain she'll be another plastic surgery monster. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 11:01:25
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quote:
Originally posted by KingOfSiam
I'm quite sure all of her money gets donated to a good cause, carolynanna - HERSELF!!!!
Of course it does.
There will always be people who have alot of money, I don't think all of them are philanthropists. Even if they were, do you think someone like Bono lives in a hovel eating tins of beans? I bet alot of musicians that you like spend money on themselves (dare I say even frivolously). Kurt Cobain probably wasted a lot of potential charity dollars putting needles in his arms.
But I think that its a good question and I would like to ask Francisco aka Velvety if he knows what kind of charities Madonna donates to and approximately how much $$ she donates as compared to how much $$ she has accumulated for herself.
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 11:24:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
quote:
Originally posted by KingOfSiam
I'm quite sure all of her money gets donated to a good cause, carolynanna - HERSELF!!!!
Of course it does.
(snip)
Kurt Cobain probably wasted a lot of potential charity dollars putting needles in his arms.
I don't know what percentage of her income she donates to charity, but I know some people who work for nonprofits that have recieved substantial cash and in-kind contributions from Madonna, the more famous of them being AMFAR (american federation for aids research). She has also contributed extensively to arts foundations that serve young at-risk women (under the theory that if you give young women something constructive to do and the opportunity to broaden ones skills, they will do that instead of whoring around getting themselves pregnant... the Boys and Girls clubs model). But it's convenient to hate her and claim that she does no charity work. Maybe you don't know about it all because she doesn't wear a T-Shirt that says "Look how wonderful I am for I spent $1M on (insert your favotire charity here)" like many celebrities. Britney Spears, for example, made sure it was well publicized that a WHOLE DOLLAR from each concert ticket was going toward 911 relief efforts. You'll occassionaly see Madonna at some civil liberties awards banquet or charity auction, but my friends in the nonprofit arena tell me that doesn't begin to indicate the depth of her philantropic budget.
Yanno, I don't see anybody whining about successful pop star MEN and how they make and their money. In fact, I usually don't see such vehement hatred against Madonna herself among women in general. Most of the people who are threatened by hate Madonna are heterosexual men. Just an observation, make your own conclusions.
So, yeah, she's rich, she's powerful, let's not give her any credit for any moves she made herself. We all know she's only famous because of some man she slept with, as are any women who have done well and are fairly outspoken and don't know their place. : Oprah, Roseanne, etc. Madonna should keep her mouth shut and not let her pretty little head be bothered by such intense topics as politics and world strife. These are topics better handled by celebrity men, right?
And as for lightweight lyrics, guilty as charged. That puts her in the same category as The Ramones, frankly. I know they've got some money, I hear the cash register go ca-ching! between every inning at a Milwaukee Brewer's game when they play "Hey Ho Lets Go!" How much of their money do you suppose they gave to charity?
In the interests of full disclosure, according to my 2002 tax return (married filing jointly), my husband and I contributed 3% of our adjusted gross income to 501(c)(3) organizations. I'm a little embarassed about this -- somebody in our bracket should be kicking in about 5-10%. We might hit the 5% figure if you count contributions we make to nonprofits that don't qualify for tax deductions (Planned parenthood and the ACLU, because they lobby and do direct action, don't qualify). Anybody else care to fess up? People in glass houses, you know.
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 11:34:17
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Blackpurse, I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I am glad to hear that Madonna contributes so much to some really worthwhile causes.
I, myself think a great idea is leaving part of your estate to charity in your will. (Hopefully I've accumulated something by then!) The thought might piss off your kids though.
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 12:13:26
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
So, yeah, she's rich, she's powerful, let's not give her any credit for any moves she made herself. We all know she's only famous because of some man she slept with, as are any women who have done well and are fairly outspoken and don't know their place. : Oprah, Roseanne, etc. Madonna should keep her mouth shut and not let her pretty little head be bothered by such intense topics as politics and world strife. These are topics better handled by celebrity men, right?
well said "blackpurse" [wink wink]
yeah, i thought his article had a vaguely mysogynist feel to it. using the "c" word and all... i'm not a fan of Madonna, but i completely agree with you.. there is a total double standard when it comes to criticizing powerful female artists..
it's not like Snoop would get criticized for not writing post-911 sensitive lyrics..
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Edited by - floop on 05/14/2003 12:17:01 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 12:23:41
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So Madonna is rich and is not satisfied with her life. Why do we harp on her so much. How many bands whine about shit? (We just did a thread on this last week).
Ya ya it was under Here Comes Your Man and it was called Rift. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 05/14/2003 12:37:29 |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 19:18:32
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quote:
As soon as she starts looking "old" I am certain she'll be another plastic surgery monster.
She's already starting to look like she's had too much plastic surgery. Am I right?
She'll pull a Marianne Faithful anytime now.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6194 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 00:13:30
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I just figured out something:
I'm a pre-9/11 person in a post 9/11 world
Like al people older than two years
''it's not a box, it's a submarine'' |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 08:00:13
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i noticed that floop avoided the word "cunt", preferring "c word" instead.
i've noticed that cunt is a really taboo word in the usa and is hardly ever used in tv programmes, films etc. I know this has nothing to do with maddona but its just interesting that the word cunt is shyed away from, whereas words like fuck and motherfucker are commonplace. even though motherfucker, by its very nature is much worse. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 08:34:59
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Okay, I'll try not to get too feminist on you guys but....
Quite often when people cut up or dis or whatever to other people, they use feminine derogatory terms like bitch cunt slut motherfucker.... When someone is a chickenshit then we call them a pussy and it goes on. I know there are masculine terms like bastard but it seems that the other cusses (usually pertaining to female anatomy) pack more punch in emasculating males. It tends to reinforce the differences between genders but most detrimentally it instills the feeling that one is superior. |
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Itchload
= Cult of Ray =
USA
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 08:56:00
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| Blackpurse, It's nice to know Madonna's a charitable girl and all, but on the simplistic lyrical note she can't get off the hook. The Ramones were smarter than their lyrics, that was their thing, simple music, simple lyrics, less pretention. I mean, "now i wanna sniff some glue" isn't really trying for the impressive complexity that "american life" strives for and fails miserably. And if the Ramones were lucky, their albums sold a couple hundred thousand copies split 4 ways (2 ways now...) which is nothing compared to the millions of albums Madonna has sold (plus movies, merchandizing, ext)..although I guess Ramones did do Rock N Roll Highschool. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6194 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 10:31:13
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carolynanna,
I'm sorry, I do admit women have suffered from society standards and stuff, we men oww the women big time and we can never call it even.
But what you wrote is a bit too much in my opinion.
You maybe got a point and all, but those words don't have that meaning any more, they did have and maybe with the wrong reasons you mentioned. But it's like the phrase ''Geee, I would love to do that''
Gee is short for Jesus, but I don't think people notice that when they
say Gee....
And what about gay people? When a man can't fight, he's gay. When he likes pink, he's gay. When he dyes his hair, he's gay.
If a boy does something stupid in Holland he's always called a gay.
And I've read that it's like that in other countries too.
I think that's a lot more serious.
And what about black people, aren't they more discriminated then women? (well ok, maybe this was a bad argument, scrapp it)
Feminist's should fight the more serious problems, like
the lack of women in the top-bussiness. Or in Hospitals where all treaded like a nurse even when they're a doctor.
But I guess the feminist's already do that and so they should.
BTW, I've been discriminated lot's of times when doing my work.
(I'm a man) I'm doing housework for people who can't do that anymore.
Like old people or people who are physically handicaped. I'm a freelance employee, so that's why I don't clean the same houses and come to the same people. But when that door opens up and they see it's a 18 year old boy you can see that people are scared.
Or they say ''Ohh you ARE a boy, I thought you would be a girl with a boys name (they know my name when it's announced who will be cleaning there homes). One time a woman actually said: This must be a mistake, this can't be possible and sent me back!
It's a girl's world!
I would burn my bra if I had one.
When I tell people my story (even at my work, where are more women then men) they just laugh. No sympathy or what so ever.
And I don't blame them that they don't say to the clients that I'm a man and only give my name, because why should my gender matter?
and I guess I can't do anything about it
what I tried to point out is that women are SOMETIMES as bad
and that society created some things that are highly excepted
but are stupid as can be.
Men can do housework! Women can be a great managers!
''it's not a box, it's a submarine'' |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 10:47:33
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yeah bill, but the reason people are surprised that you're male and hence "discrimate" against you is because of the preconcieved notion that that housework is "women's work", which is the larger problem. i don't know if your reverse-discrimination argument really works in this situation. the fact that people think you shouldn't be doing that only reinforces the underlying problem..
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 11:00:56
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Bill/Jop,
I am in complete agreement with you that the words have lost their meaning just like saying saying oh my god and so on. Actually my brother gave me shit the other day, I got screwed for change at the store and I said I got jipped. He says that its really 'gyped' and he finds that offensive to gypsies. I told him to fuck off.
Anyways, I also truly believe that women are not the only ones who get screwed from societally imposed gender boundaries. I know for a fact men do too. I was just concentrating on one aspect at that moment.
I don't like imposed gender boundaries period with a capital P. I know that there are differences between genders but just because there are differences doesn't mean that one has to be better than the other. Furthermore, there are more than just 2 genders there's a whole spectrum.
I'm sure we can all agree that it would be better if people could just be what they are without all these imposed roles (I don't want to preach to the choir.)
And Jop, although women breaking the glass ceiling is important, I think there are other pertinent issues as well. How about ending female genital mutilation in all parts of the world or lowering the incidents of sexual abuse which in Canada is reported as 1 in 3 women (and that is just what is reported). How many women do you know? Think about it. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6194 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 14:42:28
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All is good, carolynanna
you're totally right
the people on this board have great skills towards debating
Genital Mutilation is something of other culture's
Which means you can't really attack it as a single thing
Women need to be liberated in general in some other culture's
where they do stuff like that.
And sexual abuse, is one of the faults in creation or nature etc.
Sex is such a nice thing considering it as an aspect of love
Lust, Jealousy, Greed makes it so horrible
the fact that there are rapers out there makes me sometimes regrett
my gender.
(btw Floop that's a great angle to look at it,
now I feel a bit better.
and kudos (what the heck it means, I hope it's has a clean history) to carolynanna because she took all the trouble of looking in my
profile to find my name. She really the first on this forum to call me Jop. Not that I hate it when people call me bill, it's ok, I like it. I think I'm talking Jibberish (hope it is ok to say that, don't know where it cane frin) right now, I'm on some drugs against stress. From the drugstore ok, not from the coffeeshop, I'm not that dutch)
''it's not a box, it's a submarine'' |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 23:01:52
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| I knew your name was Jop, but I never got a kudos. <sniff> Oh, the tears I will cry tonight. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6194 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2003 : 03:38:10
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Oops! Sorry cult of frank
''it's not a box, it's a submarine'' |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2003 : 08:07:28
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Hey Jop don't have regrets on behalf of others, you didn't do anything (hopefully).
Hey do you know any dutch people with the last name Ter-Voert? |
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