| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| realmeanmotorscutor |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 20:40:32
I thought it was amazing. Some will say Moore is nothing but a propagandist himself but I don't think a person could possibly overdo the tragedy. This film is brilliant. I'm going to give a kid I know $10 to see it; he wants to join the Marines and is an advocate for blind patriotism (like miss Spears). He's a good kid, I just think he needs to be more well informed.
Anyway, is there anyone here who hated the film.? What are your thoughts?
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| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dallas |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 13:12:54
I have a suspicion that this thread will get real quiet and roll off page 1 in short order... |
| Erebus |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 12:06:41
You folks who like both NPR and Michael Moore should read this column by NPR's Scott Simon. I've helpfully included the first few paragraphs after the link.
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB109088016885774289-IhjgoNilaR3oZ2ta36IcKyIm4,00.html
'Gonzo Demagoguery' Writ Large
By SCOTT SIMON
July 27, 2004; Page D10
Michael Moore has won the Palme d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival, and may win an Oscar for the kind of work that got Stephen Glass, Jayson Blair, and Jack Kelley fired.
Trying to track the unproven innuendoes and conspiracies in a Michael Moore film or book is as futile as trying to count the flatulence jokes in one by Adam Sandler. Some journalists and critics have acted as if his wrenching of facts is no more serious than a movie continuity problem, like showing a 1963 Chevy in 1956 Santa Monica.
A documentary film doesn't have to be fair and balanced, to coin a phrase. But it ought to make an attempt to be accurate. It can certainly be pointed and opinionated. But it should not knowingly misrepresent the truth. Much of Michael Moore's films and books, however entertaining to his fans and enraging to his critics, seems to regard facts as mere nuisances to the story he wants to tell. [snip]
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| Dallas |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 09:58:04
Lets see one of the biggest premises in the movie is that Bush helpted the Saudis fly out of the country when the skies where shut down.
Here are the facts:
But in May, Clarke admitted that he alone approved the exit of bin Laden's relatives -- contradicting one of the central premises of Moore's film.
The decision to approve the flights, Clarke admitted, had been his own. The request "didn't get any higher than me," he told The Hill newspaper.
"On 9/11, 9/12 and 9/13, many things didn't get any higher than me. I decided it in consultation with the FBI," Clarke said of the flight carrying bin Laden's relatives.
"I take responsibility for it. I don't think it was a mistake, and I'd do it again," he added. The Saudis and bin Laden's relatives were flown out of the U.S. because of fears for their safety following the terror attacks.
Clarke, who appears in Moore's film, told the Associated Press in June that it was "a mistake" for Moore to include in his movie the assertion that the White House was the impetus for the flights. Clarke called Moore's allegations about the bin Laden family's flight out of the country "a tempest in a tea pot."
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| Erebus |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 08:30:42
quote:
Originally posted by model consumer
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
er, GypsyDeath, it's fiction, a compelling story bearing little relation to reality
Erebus--
Could you specifically point out which parts are fiction? I'm just curious. I saw the film on Sunday for the first time and I didn't see any fiction in there. There are parts with which you no doubt disagree. But if there are factual errors, please point them out. Anyone who doubts any of the claims of the movie surely can prove them wrong.
[/quote]
MC -
Here are a couple of links to rather long, detailed treatments of the veracity of F9/11. Though they are long, they are broken out into short sections addressing specific points made by Moore, so I think you can easily and efficiently visit those aspects that most interest you. The first is to Dave Kopel's "59 Deceits" and the second is to a point by point rebuttal to Kopel. This second article was pointed out on this forum by darwin. As you would expect, I tend to accept Kopel's arguments while discounting the rebuttals.
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/18/173312/462
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| model consumer |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 07:06:03
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
er, GypsyDeath, it's fiction, a compelling story bearing little relation to reality
[/quote]
Erebus--
Could you specifically point out which parts are fiction? I'm just curious. I saw the film on Sunday for the first time and I didn't see any fiction in there. There are parts with which you no doubt disagree. But if there are factual errors, please point them out. Anyone who doubts any of the claims of the movie surely can prove them wrong.
--
"What's all I listen to? It's all freedom rock!" |
| Dallas |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 14:10:28
YIKES! Thanks for the headsup on the missing K...
Yes, a lot of Americans are/were against the Iraq war. |
| TheCroutonFuton |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 14:06:09
(Silent "k" in "knew"!)
Dallas, you don't have to be an ass to get your point across.
I will agree with Dallas on one thing: This war is much different than Vietnam.
But one thing is the same: A lot of Americans don't agree with the war.
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
| Dallas |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 13:50:31
Smart Alec - can you compare the death tolls from Vietnam and the Iraqi Liberation to support your claims? How about casualties per week or total causalties?
If you knew a thing about Vietnam you wouldnt embarrass yourself with such silly comparisons. |
| Daisy Girl |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 08:45:06
Did you guys hear that Moore offered GWB a free screening tonight in Crawford, TX where he is on vacation. I seriously doubt if he will go, but that would be cool. |
| Smart Alec |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 03:16:41
Just remember that if George W. Bush is re-elected, it won't make the U.S. more polular in the rest of the world.
And even though I haven't seen the movie yet, I've heard that there are some scenes from the battlefield in Iraq in there, the kind of which haven't been shown to the U.S. people before. Iraq is turning into a 2nd Vietnam, the death toll keeps rising and rising, and there's no end in sight. Al Q'aida had probably just GAINED members because of all the U.S. agression in Afghanistan and Iraq. Remember how patriottic all U.S. citizens became after 9/11? Well, the same has happened in the Arabic world after they felt they were attacked by the U.S.
"Love Bang Crash a waka waka" |
| darwin |
Posted - 07/23/2004 : 11:02:11
quote:
Originally posted by gracie
To all you American's out there, is he actually going to get re elected? So many American's seem to have this blind faith (just like Britney), its really quite worrying. I know not every one in the USA votes for Bush or agrees with his foreign policy, it just seems that way sometimes.
Bush's job disapproval rating is currently around 45-48%. Many Americans do not like the job he's doing.
http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm |
| gracie |
Posted - 07/23/2004 : 10:48:18
I've just seen it and i thought it was fantastic.
The part with Lila at the end was so moving, just seeing herself doubled over in grief was heartbreaking. I actually felt bad watching it, like her grief was entertaining or something.
The shots of the marines recruiting in the "poor" shoppng mall and the quotes from those American soliders were both shocking and horrifying. Is it any wonder that "hearts and minds" are not being won over.
To all you American's out there, is he actually going to get re elected? So many American's seem to have this blind faith (just like Britney), its really quite worrying. I know not every one in the USA votes for Bush or agrees with his foreign policy, it just seems that way sometimes.
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| martha_promise |
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 18:06:31
The September 11th commision report was just released today...
http://www.9-11commission.gov/
It's a heavy PDF file, but if anybody's interested...
With all the circle jerking in the U.S. government, the commission unfortunatly doesn't really come to any profound conclusions.
It's pretty much a bipartisan witch-hunt with no real solutions or statements on what could have been done to prevent it.
Oh well,.. vote FB in 2004!
~~I love the north part, I love your marble ear~~ |
| Stuart |
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 17:31:31
Moore is a brave guy!
I first saw it last night and thought that it was a pretty good..... however I agree that it was like watching a Democrat Party Political broadcast. At the end of the day with Bush in control of the worlds most powerful nation I can totally understand Moores reasoning to make this film.
Yeah, he's biased.... but then so is CNN..... so many people (mainly not Americans) informed me of CNN's ridiculously one sided coverage post Sept 11th and the Iraq war. Like Bowling for Columbine I think that Moore raises alot of valid points, surely even the die hard Bush lovers cannot argue against that..... maybe some of it is sensationalised but at the end of the day the corruption and lies within the US Government needs to be uncovered.
If Bush gets re-elected the rest of the world will look at Americans with an even more negative view than they presently hold. I'm not saying that this is a correct thing to do (it's not at all, thats narrow minded in its own right) as not all Americans vote for Bush,but there will be a serious negative labelling of Americans throughout the world. I really hope that the majority in America aren't that stupid to vote him in again, he has done enough dame to America, and to the world!
Just the good ole boys, never meaning no harm,
that all you ever saw
been in trouble with the law,
since the day they were born |
| Daisy Girl |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 13:32:11
quote:
Originally posted by GypsyDeath
Jim, nice piece of writing, which expresses everything I wanted to say about this film.
I was so angry, when I saw this. Me and my friend..grgh, were just so angry.
I was in tears at the end. people stood up and applauded, others just sat in disbelief. I sat in disbelief.
It made me feel physically sick.
Just thought I'd throw that in there...
That's how I felt... 
I keep telling everyone about it... it made my Grandma sick when I told her about it. |
| Ebb Vicious |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 13:17:53
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
er, GypsyDeath, it's fiction, a compelling story bearing little relation to reality
hahahaha you keep telling yourself that, chief. if it makes fellating bush easier for you, that's great. just go do it somewhere else. |
| El Barto |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 13:14:40
I can't believe that either. I can't believe people take the daily news as 100% factual either. Read my writing...everybody has an agenda.
I guess I just wasn't made for these times. |
| The Champ |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 08:19:27
exactly, i can't believe people just take this junk show as 100% factual |
| Erebus |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 08:08:35
quote:
Originally posted by GypsyDeath
Jim, nice piece of writing, which expresses everything I wanted to say about this film.
I was so angry, when I saw this. Me and my friend..grgh, were just so angry.
I was in tears at the end. people stood up and applauded, others just sat in disbelief. I sat in disbelief.
It made me feel physically sick.
Just thought I'd throw that in there...
er, GypsyDeath, it's fiction, a compelling story bearing little relation to reality |
| GypsyDeath |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 07:45:55
Jim, nice piece of writing, which expresses everything I wanted to say about this film.
I was so angry, when I saw this. Me and my friend..grgh, were just so angry.
I was in tears at the end. people stood up and applauded, others just sat in disbelief. I sat in disbelief.
It made me feel physically sick.
Just thought I'd throw that in there... |
| The Champ |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 06:41:31
Damn good link Edd Vicious |
| Ebb Vicious |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 15:35:08
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
You pro-Moore people need to spend some time at this site for some serious debunking of the serial liar.
http://www.centigrade911.com/
hey that doesn't debunk bush at all?? |
| Daisy Girl |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 13:47:19
I finally saw it. I agree with El Barto... see it and make up your own opinion about it.
Here's mine... the movie was a great reminder that absolute power corrupts. George W and his dad George H. Bush are bedfellows with many Saudis including the Bin Laden family. There is more of a financial incentive for the Bush brigade to be loyal to the Saudis than his own people! If George W were a business person... his company would not allow him to have such close ties with an opposing interest... it would be considered a conflict of interest...
This is clearly an insider deal and American citizens and Iraqi citizens are paying with their lives to line the pockets of the Bushes, Cheney, The Saudis, James Baker et. al. To make things worse...their gain is at the detrement to the rest of the economy. The war prepetuates uncertainty that slows economic growth.
Bush and Dick '04...what a joke |
| darwin |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 10:25:21
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
You pro-Moore people need to spend some time at this site for some serious debunking of the serial liar.
http://www.centigrade911.com/
Sure, and you can spend your day reading the replies to the debunking here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/18/173312/462 |
| Erebus |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 10:13:10
You pro-Moore people need to spend some time at this site for some serious debunking of the serial liar.
http://www.centigrade911.com/ |
| Carl |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 11:10:14
I saw it last week, and although some of it is quite powerful and revealing, I felt it was a bit too exaggerated, but then that's Moore's style. I suppose you have to see it as 'the Michael Moore show', but anyone who's never heard anything about him must surely imagine him as some sort of rabid propaganda monger. Actually, I suppose it is propaganda, to an extent. I have to say, though, it's amazing to see such a political film doing great business in big, multiplex cinemas. In fact, it's amazing to see in being shown in mainstrem theatres at all, never mind it's success. I saw it on a sunday evening in and there were quite a few people there, of all ages. |
| VoVat |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 16:40:39
quote:
I think I like Michael Moore okayish enough. Most people that stir up the proverbial sh@t in a politically active sort of way are kind of good for consciousness over all. Even if his slant is very slanted, it's good to pose "off the mainstream" scenarios for folks to ponder.
Agreed. Yes, his stuff is slanted, and perhaps misleading in spots, but it encourages skepticism, and that's a good thing. It's an alternate perspective. You can disagree with it if you like. The important thing is that you thought about it, and that you were exposed to ideas other than those of the government and the mainstream media.
Personally, I would definitely recommend the film to anyone. I thought it was effective, being humorous in spots and disturbing in others. And I think it made a lot of good points.
Besides, isn't a bias AGAINST something generally less suspicious than a bias FOR something?
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
| Ebb Vicious |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 08:34:35
everyone who relays information to another person puts their own spin on it.
at least moore is open about it and doesn't try to hide it.
fahrenheit 9/11 is entertaining and has been and will be informative for a lot of people.
attacking moore is just a really sad way of avoiding confronting the fact that bush is a puppet of the richest people in the world, used to serve themselves iraq floated on a barge of bodies and river of blood. |
| dogjones |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 20:39:59
for anyone paying attention the past 3 years most all the film is a bunch of nothing new...honestly, i would have preferred he spent more time on the corporate cash grab engrained in this administration or the lack of proper media coverage on real issues rather than showing bush looking stupid.
that aside, if you can dismiss 2 hours of a movie based on 10 minutes of 3-line statements broken up over the course of the film, you had your mind made up how you feel before the moore's first voiceover hit the screen...its a forest/trees thing.
here's another news flash...moore didnt invent the editorial documentary...he didnt even inovate it. if youve never seen one, i invite you to watch something other that stories about how tigers kill the hell outta small animals on discovery channel.
...largest federal govt. ever, the greatest restriction of rights since the mccarthy era, the most expensive govt. ever, a foreign relations nightmare...if all it takes is a few hundred bucks back on tax relief to buy you off, so be it.
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| El Barto |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 20:25:57
I just saw this movie as well, and here's what I wrote in my blog about it:
Every living, breathing, and thinking human being must see this movie. I don't care if you're liberal, conservative, independant, none of the above, black, white, oriental, middle eastern, christian, catholic, protestant, atheist, muslim, unable to vote, unwilling to vote, undecided on who to vote for, already decided on who to vote for, paranoid, skeptical, down to earth, optimistic, pescimistic, cynical, realistic or unrealistic, you have to see this movie. It should be a required viewing for students and Americans in general of all ages. This movie should not go unseen. It is an informative, depressing, comical, realistic, and gut-wrenching look at the administration currently residing over this country. As cliche as it sounds, it'll make you laugh, it'll make you cry, it'll make you think about what we've done up to this point as a country.
Sure, Michael Moore may have an agenda. Sure, he may use people's personal stories and emotions to drive a point. Sure, he may be showing one side of the story, but this is a fact of the matter with any media outlet, any media source. Everybody has an agenda, everybody has an opinion, and they will use whatever material they have to drive that opinion. We see the opposite of what Moore is saying every day on national TV and we don't bother questioning it. We submit to the fear that is driven into us by the highest levels of the US government. We don't realize that we're being used as pawns in somebody(s)'s pre-meditated plot.
This movie is a wakeup call to the American people. This is a public service message, letting us know who we're out to dethrone this November. It sickens me that even while I write this, there are plans to put measures into place to either suspend or cancel the November elections...We've already had one election stolen from us, what are we going to do this November? Are we going to stand by and let this happen to us again?
This is a moment in time, our time, to not let history repeat itself. We've let it happen for the past four years. We've seen the best in people and the worst in people. We've seen how a country can come together, but not exactly for the best cause. We've been duped as a people into two wars. We cannot let this happen again. Do your part as an American citizen, and exercise your right to vote. While we stand by every day while our civil liberties are pissed on, our Constitution put to shame, we still have this right. It is our duty to take full advantage of it this November.
I feel so patriotic...
I guess I just wasn't made for these times. |
| darkoutsider |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 16:26:19
True dat Davey, true dat. He gave $25,000 to ALA. He owed one to the liberians that helped him publish his book "Stupid White Men." And he tricked Americans into giving food to the Iraqi people by offering cheap gas.
In my defense... I'm just sayin' |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 15:37:47
In Moore's credit, this film seems more 'solid'.
I can see why people would make an effort to point out several flaws in the movie, but if ind they also generally ignore the whole point of the film...?
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| The Champ |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 15:14:24
If moore was actually such a nobel person he would donate every cent he makes from this film to some orginizations, if he doesnt hes just a greedy hypocrite. |
| Erebus |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 13:56:36
Hopefully you justice-committed folks will read this at the nonpartisan Spinsanity.Org
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20040702.html |
| darkoutsider |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 13:10:57
Start reading up http://www.fahrenheit911.com/library/book/index.php
In my defense... I'm just sayin' |
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