| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Carolynanna |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 13:33:13
Gonna stir things up here.
This one has been up for awhile here and people are freaking out.
I'm not sure what I think about this,
I'm curious what Dave thinks about these too,
but anyway here's the story;
Vancouver, British Columbia - A US animal rights group defended an advertising campaign on Wednesday that links the women victims in a Canadian serial murder case to the fate of butchered pigs.
Relatives of the Vancouver women, feared killed by accused murderer Robert Pickton, have denounced the campaign by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, which wants to convince people not to eat meat.
Health officials warned last month that processed pork products that Pickton gave or sold to friends from his ramshackle Port Coquitlam farm outside Vancouver may have been contaminated by human remains. Pickton was arrested in 2002 and is awaiting trial on multiple murder charges.
The billboards in Toronto and Edmonton, Alberta, show pictures of a woman and a pig with the slogan: "Neither of us is meat." The signs do not mention the Pickton case, but Peta acknowledged the link.
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| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| realmeanmotorscutor |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 18:29:50
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
But to me, the idea of keeping an animal in your house and feeding him/her processed food from a can is already totally bizarre, so this is just the icing on the cake.
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer!
HA! Yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes I look at my cats roaming hither and thither and think, "I'm living among beasts. This is seriously strange." But we're best friends and it becomes not strange at all.
 "I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
| darkoutsider |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 18:00:37
I do support the rights of animals. I'm against the abuse, mistreatment, and slaughter of helpless animals. But man, the PETA people piss me off. They get bent over ass first over any little fucking thing. They get all pissy over fake animals! A digital dog gets run gets hurt. Oh it might give people the impression that if hurting a fake animal is okay, then hurting the real thing is okay too. Shut the fuck up. They get as irritating as the Truth kids, anti-tabacco fuckers. But that's a completely different topic. If I take them on both at once I'll get an ulcer.
- It's all in the mind... - |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 16:22:17
Vovat - i'm not for 'equal rights'. That's patently ridiculous. Just like a woman doesn't have a right to have a vasectomy, we don't need to protect non-human animals from non-human animals.
Yeah, the spay and neuter thing is one of the few area's i'll admit a duality in my opinion.
I really don't think we should do that.
But, it results in a mich higher chance of cancer for these animals, and they're also free to reproduce, which is a worse problem, so it's really a lesser of two evils.
But to me, the idea of keeping an animal in your house and feeding him/her processed food from a can is already totally bizarre, so this is just the icing on the cake.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| VoVat |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 16:17:23
Because Bob Barker says so! <g>
I've reached 1000 posts / So I'm too cool to be in a cult. |
| NimrodsSon |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 15:38:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Thanks Jop. =)
Jim - wanted to stick to animals used for food for this topic.. But no, i don't believe in 'pets'. I'm a strong advocate of spaying and neutering, and find breeders to be quite repulsive.
And assholes who spend $2000 on a puppy while others are being killed down the street at the shelter...
I have no problems with people having companion animals per se, it's definitely the best option for these critters, but one day i hope that keeping other animals is no longer done.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer!
You said earlier that you believe animals should be able to live their lives without the interference of humans. If you believe this, why do you feel it's okay for humans to spay and neuter dogs and cats? (I'm not trying to argue, just wondering)
ˇViva los Católicos! |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 15:31:04
Dave, I find it interesting that you're an advocate of spaying/neutering (i.e. removing an animal's genitals). I'm not saying I disagree, just that I wouldn't expect you to be on that side of the fence.
 "Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
| VoVat |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 15:20:46
quote:
animals eating animals argument: most of the animals people eat in the west are nonviolent, vegetarian animals
But most other carnivorous and omnivorous animals ALSO eat nonviolent, vegetarian animals. If someone is in favor of equal rights for animals, doesn't that also mean equal responsibilities? If a human killing a sheep is evil, is it the same for a wolf killing a sheep?
I've reached 1000 posts / So I'm too cool to be in a cult. |
| Newo |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 04:01:15
Dave, I said with regards to your statement about a tomato not being alive in any way that the fundamental similarity of all matter would indicate a tomato is just as alive as we are.
Cheers,
Owen
--
"You one of those right-wing nut outfits?" inquired the diplomatic Metzger.
Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.
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| DeBased |
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 11:30:15
those DiMarzio straps look really cool, and a good value at $20
the method...of stop tap spin, no talkin'... |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 10:23:24
Yeah, i love my guitar straps too, i went with DiMarzio click-lock straps, very nice, and very convenient. And they will never come off..sweet.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| DeBased |
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 01:04:52
Did you see the annoyingly long post above? Here's a couple fun things for you. My husband (who wears a leather jacket and has a car with leather interior) is jealous of my way cool vinyl guitar straps I got from www.buyolympia.com/queenbee (cool purses and stuff too you can put an lp or a 45 in)
Vegetarians here will love this flick: www.themeatrix.com
The rest of you can see what you think.
I love ya all. Big kiss to El Barto! You sound just like my husband! I understand where you're coming from, believe me.
the method...of stop tap spin, no talkin'... |
| DeBased |
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 00:48:23
I can't believe the popularity of this thread. There is a lot being tossed around here. What can I say?
Making a difference: Vegetarianism is something you do on your own. You can live according to your own beliefs and it makes a difference. You do not have to join a religion or work for an advocacy group to do it. Consumer choices have a big impact on the marketplace - I can attest to how many veg/vegan grocery products are out there now as opposed to 15 years ago. Even in small towns. You have the restaurant and clothing choices now. The world changes, it does not remain the same. Has anyone seen a hybrid car? This is why some people still vote in the US. I love animals and I like to live in a way that reflects my own values when I can, and it has been convenient enough for me to live like this. I don't see changing it, but maybe doing more down the road when I'm not so busy with my family, etc.
Self-Righteousness: Vegetarianism is not about preaching. I RARELY discuss it with anyone. Meat eaters talk to me about meat and fishing and whatever else they're doing all the time. I don't feel threatened by it, it's the world where I live. It's suprising how many people get uptight when I "confess" my vegetarianism, though. I wonder if these people are offended when a person is of a different religion than they are. I am discussing it here because the topic was raised, and I wasn't going to sit back and watch Dave go it alone. I love vegans. BTW, vegetarians are not the minority in all countries, but we tend to think the rest of the world is just like here. This is the most I've discussed this in at least 10 years and its not why I joined the forum! I usually leave the arguing to the Meat and Dairy Councils and folks like PETA (there has to be SOMEONE on our side).
Putting People First: I do. I love people, I volunteer my time for a human non profit. I love my carnivorous husband and friends dearly. We live and let live together. Putting people first has zero to do with what I eat.
Health: Please remember that some people are vegan/vegetarian for health reasons and it has nothing to do with animal rights. 2 people I cook for in my family cannot have any dairy for two very different reasons. A lot of people with various health issues have to go vegetarian and that's what keeps them out of the hospital.
Lots of vegetarians are not into animal welfare but belong to one religion or another that has food guidelines.
the fish question: eating fish does not fall under being vegetarian.
animals other than humans don't think, feel or love: the only explanation of this is that there is a serious lack of education sometimes
animals eating animals argument: most of the animals people eat in the west are nonviolent, vegetarian animals
Other than that, I do not agree with an all or nothing kind of mentality towards these issues. Every bit helps. Small, humane farming is better. Buying antibiotic free/or organic/or free range meat is better and it helps more than just animals. Just like if you recycle 1/2 the time it is better than never. I appreciate things meat-eaters do that make a little difference, like choosing a different brand of tunafish or whatever.
And blah blah blah.
Sometimes doesn't the push to conform to the norm just drag on you?
the method...of stop tap spin, no talkin'... |
| realmeanmotorscutor |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 21:35:18
I have an assload of cats and love them all dearly. I understand the moral dillema of keeping animals captive and there are some (ex. birds) that I will not keep. I justify owning cats by reminding myself that I'm truly lengthening their lives and keeping them happy and healthy. They really are happy and wouldn't be doing anything otherwise. I'm still mulling over my feelings on animal ownership but I know I'll never not have a cat.
I really want a bearded dragon but can't decide if that's right or not.
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 21:27:02
Thanks Jop. =)
Jim - wanted to stick to animals used for food for this topic.. But no, i don't believe in 'pets'. I'm a strong advocate of spaying and neutering, and find breeders to be quite repulsive.
And assholes who spend $2000 on a puppy while others are being killed down the street at the shelter...
I have no problems with people having companion animals per se, it's definitely the best option for these critters, but one day i hope that keeping other animals is no longer done.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| slaveish |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 18:15:20
vegetarianism is good. good for the body, good for the environment, non-violent, inexpensive, forward-thinking.
there is an ad being run in the ny subway cars right now for a self-storage place. it has a photograph of a trophy moose head, with a bubble coming out of his mouth which reads "my owner is now a peta member."
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| El Barto |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 15:33:53
You missed my question: do you believe in having pets?
Boycott cults |
| billgoodman |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 13:36:45
ok dave, that's your opinion, and I respect that, in fact I think you have a good piont
 "I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf" |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 11:20:30
Jim - sure, there are differences. There are differences between sexism and racism. But there are probably more similarities. All are based on a desire of power, and usually created in ignorance. And none are truly justifiable.
As for punching a chicken - sure. But you can also punch a human. What's your point? Yeah, you *can*. Does that mean you *should*?
And i think the point Apsey was making is that we aren't 'wired' to be carnivores. Meat, in its 'natural' state is quite disgusting to most people. Especially organs. If you want to go with the 'nature' argument (which i generally don't) - any true carnivore or omnivore would *drool* at the sight of organ meat.
We don't. Nuff said.
IceCream - it's not as simple as 'mean tigers'. Their habitat has been deminished considerably, and there isn't room for the tigers and leopards to co-exist. Humans are to blame here.
To call it 'ruthless' is ridiculous. Do tigers feel or experience ruth? I don't know - do you? Does anybody?
All we can do is guess - and it's most likely they were defending their territory. The leopards don't have anywhere else to go, and were essentially 'backed into a corner' and chose to fight rather than flee. (I'm pretty sure a leopard could escape from a tiger.)
Again, it's human interference that's the root of the problem.
Tigers *could* live on a plant-based diet, but would doubtless need certain suppliments, most likely the amino acid taurine, which is rather low in plants. More info on how cats can eat veggie at www.vegancats.com
Bedrock! - there're a few more. There's one user with the handle 'vegan'. =)
Jop - i'll give *organic* eggs a sliver of credit, those chickens do live better lives than in factory farms. There are no standards or regulations in the US or Canada for 'free range', so it's little more than a lip-service.
It's still exploitation tho. And i find that objectionable. I don't think the chickens should be kept in cages, no matter how large. They're also still bred to produce unnatural amounts of eggs. It's all pretty fucked up, imo.
 www.frankblack.net/images/icon-flyingpig.gif" border="0"> Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| billgoodman |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 09:01:58
he dave, you were absolutely right with your egg reply
but what's wrong with eating a free-range egg?
That's of course when you are 100% sure that the chicken was free when laying that egg.
"I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf" |
| Carolynanna |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 08:50:16
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Carolyn - do you know this for sure? If so, it really does make this campaign much more acceptable, i was assuming the picture was... I don't know either way..
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer!
No, its just what I heard. |
| bumblebeeboy2 |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 04:54:35
quote:
Originally posted by bedrock_barney
bumblybee - chicken tikka vegetarian
hahaha! chicken dansak vegetarian actually... 
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| bedrock_barney |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 03:14:17
There are a few more vegans/vegetarians than I thought lurking on these boards:
Dave N - vegan
DeBased - 15 year vegetarian
billgoodman - vegetarian from birth
obfuscate - 4 year vegetarian
bumblybee - chicken tikka vegetarian
me - 20 year vegetarian
Any more want to 'come out' and declare their love for all things green and leafy?
I love being a vegetarian (apart from eating out at restaurants which sucks most of the time - you can only eat so many precooked lasagnes). My wife and kids are also vegetarians. I actually wonder what will happen when my children grow up. Will they be tempted to eat meat at some point? (to have a point of reference at the very least). Both of them are adamant that they will always be vegetarians but they are still to experience their teenage years so anything could happen!
The thing I find the most amusing is the discussions that take place when I find myself eating at, say, a business lunch. The days of vegetarians being seen as cranky are over but most meat eaters are genuinely puzzled that I can lead a healthy lifestyle sans meat. The question I am asked ad nauseum is 'But what do you eat'?? Barbeques are always fun as well. Meat eaters go into an all out flesh eating frenzy for some reason - plates piled high with part cooked animal components.....and a token baby tomato sat on a solitary lettuce leaf.
 "I've rejoined the Cult of Ming / Star of favourite childhood movie of 1980" |
| IceCream |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 21:25:23
quote:
We should extend our compassion and respect because we CAN, not because a dog or cow is somehow more deserving or not.
http://lynx.uio.no/catfolk/cnissues/cn11-05.htm
Dave, after reading the above article, may I ask:
Do you have 'compassion' and 'respect' for a tiger (of many tigers - the article does say "although leopards manage sometimes to coexist with tigers they are not common where tiger density is high") who ruthlessly and unrighteously killed these innocent leapords? Did the tiger have the right to kill them?
Of course, one can argue that the tigers are carnivores. Now, here's a question - do tigers choose to be carnivores? Theoretically, could a tiger live on plants?
Fantastic topic, Carolyn. Really thought-provoking. |
| El Barto |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 18:24:57
No, I don't. We don't have to hunt our own food. Like I said, the process has evolved. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be eating meat. We still kill eachother. Animals still kill eachother.
Boycott cults |
| Apesy |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 16:26:29
quote:
Originally posted by El Barto
Sure, my fingers might be nible enough to pick fruit, but my fists and arms are also strong enough to punch a chicken and eat it.
Sure, you can kill a chicken with your bare hands easily enough, but do you really ever get this urge? When you're out walking in the forest, do you feel like tackling and devouring animals? Modern-day, "civilized" humans, who being so far removed from nature don't really have a primal, predatory instinct, and those that do usually unleash them on their fellow humans as well as defenseless animals...
-=Apesy |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 15:36:13
Yeah Vovat, that's what I said, it's OK if they are doing it on health or taste grounds. But not moral grounds. Then it doesn't make sense to eat fish but not other animals.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
| VoVat |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 15:17:16
quote:
Preaching is what I cant stand, you live your life, and let other live theirs.
Indeed, I think this is a good point. Yes, some religions and philosophical systems say it's wrong to eat meat. And some religions and philosophies systems that say it's wrong to have sex, drink wine, gamble, use electricity, etc. It's fine that they believe this, but trying to convert unwilling people to their own beliefs just doesn't make any sense. It's the same basic argument I have against busybody Christians wanting to outlaw gay marriage; it's trying to force other people to live by your standards, whether or not they agree with them.
On the other hand, if someone truly believes meat is murder, then I think it's somewhat more difficult to have a live-and-let-live attitude than with those other things. You're (generally) not hurting anyone by having gay sex or playing roulette (unless it's Russian roulette <g>), but if I had a religion where I said it was my moral responsibility to go out and kill five pregnant women every day, would you say, "Oh, well, to each his own"? I eat meat, and I don't think it's murder (animals eat each other all the time, after all), but I can kind of see how this might be a subject that certain people find hard NOT to preach about. (That aside, though, I wish they wouldn't.)
As for fish, no, someone who eats fish sure as hell isn't a vegetarian. It doesn't mean I don't have respect for them, though; fish are apparently better for you than a lot of kinds of meat, and some people are vegetarians for health reasons, rather than animals rights ones.
And speaking of Mr. Potato Head, remember when he was advertising fries at Burger King? He was advocating that people eat members of his own species! Shame on him!
I've reached 1000 posts / So I'm too cool to be in a cult. |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 14:50:55
quote:
Originally posted by bumblebeeboy2
quote:
Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey
"I'ts OK to eat fish, 'cos they don't have any feelings"
Just like Kurt, I have never understood people who call themselves veggies but still do this. They give veggies a bad name. I respect vegans, but not veggies.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!!
so veggies who don't eat fish *or* meat? you don't respect them? why?
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No veggies who eat fish but not meat. I don't get it. How can they choose to eat some animals but not others, unless it's on taste grounds only and not moral ones.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 14:48:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
[br
Silverback gorillas have eyes on the front of their head, they eat only plants.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer!
My friend saw one in in central Park zoo the other week and he was munching a huge green pepper apparently. I don't know why but I found this hilarious. Assuming he wasn't bred in captivity, he must wonder what the hell he is eating. They don't have green peppers in the jungle that they live in in the wild. Unless Tesco have a store there too now.
When he finished he walked over to the wall and lent on it like he trying to pick a girl up in a bar. I just makes me sad that he couldn't be doing that in the jungle. I don't mean it's sad that they don't have walls in jungles........oh you know what I mean.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
| bumblebeeboy2 |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 14:39:16
quote:
Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey
"I'ts OK to eat fish, 'cos they don't have any feelings"
Just like Kurt, I have never understood people who call themselves veggies but still do this. They give veggies a bad name. I respect vegans, but not veggies.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!!
so veggies who don't eat fish *or* meat? you don't respect them? why?
Vote Cult of Bumble and you may be allowed to join http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/entertainment/busted/image.html?size=medium&busted_id=1602956&photo=RCK00079.JPG&startrow=73&maxrows=9
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| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 14:31:46
quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
Why do some vegetarians still eat fish?
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye"
"I'ts OK to eat fish, 'cos they don't have any feelings"
Just like Kurt, I have never understood people who call themselves veggies but still do this. They give veggies a bad name. I respect vegans, but not veggies.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
| El Barto |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 14:29:16
I think there's a HUGE difference between slavery, women's rights, sexism, and eating animals. You're comparing society's nature to human nature. Sure, my fingers might be nible enough to pick fruit, but my fists and arms are also strong enough to punch a chicken and eat it. Let me ask you this, do you believe in having pets?
Boycott cults |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 14:27:04
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
This all really a convenient smokescreen, imo. If you could really rate the death of a pig and a potato the same, you would also have to rate the same for a human and potato, to be logically consistant.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer!
What about Mr Potatohead???
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 14:02:10
Replies on this page..
Mel - how do you think things start to change? Does all of society wake up one day and decide 'oh..sexism is wrong, women should be able to work and vote too.'
It's started by a few people, and grows and builds.
So yeah, you not buying meat isn't going to take down the entire industry, but you do make a difference. Perhaps there won't be any animals killed today. Maybe not tomorrow. But in a year, the number will drop by whatever you were consuming. And it will remain that way as long as you are not buying it.
To say that you can't make a difference is really saying you don't want to change yourself, imo.
newo - i'm not sure what your point is...? If one chooses to look at everything as 'just energy', what's the point of doing anything?
Sure, on the absolute microcosm, we're all just energy..but it's pretty clear that there's more than this going on when you open your eyes and look around. Although interesting, i find this to be a poor base for any morals, behaviours or personal decisions.
Mel - you've gotta be kidding me with the four food groups! That's an entirely human construct, almost completely funded by the meat and dairy boards! 50 years ago there were like 12 food groups.
Sure, being veggie can be unhealthy. If all you eat is soda and chips. But that's not because you're veggie - it's because you're eating CRAP.
Bad diets make people unhealthy, not eating plant-based foods.
And besides, look at the amount of obesity out there - think that's mostly people ODing on broccoli and collards?? No - they're eating shitty food, and a lot of it is high-fat meat and dairy. (And a lot of processed carbs, which is another topic i don't want to cover here.)
There are a *lot* more helpful nutrients, in much more healthy forms from the plant kingdom than from flesh foods.
After all, where does all the 'good stuff' in meat come from? Plants.
k everyone...please don't all talk at once...heh..
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 13:48:22
Oh boy..sucks being a minority on an MB...!
Jim and i discussed this more last night and i believe (?) we came to the agreement that one person CAND AND DOES make a difference.
As for the self-righteousness, that's based on the person. Being vegan isn't a self-righteous act. But people behave self-righteously. And without a doubt, there are more self-righteous meat-eaters than veggies. So either the person is self-righteous or not. Being vegan doesn't play a part in this, tho some people like to use this as a point against veganism, which is silly at best.
Derek - we never 'evolved from animals'. You've got the terminology wrong. We ARE animals. We haven't moved away from, beyond, or below the Animal Kingdom. We are animals, and will always be animals.
I find the theory of evolution relatively sound (esp. compared to creationism), and so i'd say we 'evolved' from a similar line as our ape and monkey cousins. Apl can prolly expand on this a little more. ;)
This has nothing to do with my morality tho - 'evolving' is not a form of 'superiority', except perhaps in the sense that we can function in the world better. It doesn't make us any better or worse than any other species.
Jim - *some* people raise *some* animals in their goal to create food. The chickens, pigs and cows certainly don't think of themselves as 'food'. And people like me don't think of them as 'food'. This supposed 'purpose' is an entirely human conception, and isn't actually a part of the reality of the situation.
Once conceptions change (as they are) so will the habits.
Adnan - i find the philosophy stuff interesting, but generally flawed and unusable in day-to-day life. If you wanted to sum up my philosophy, i'm opposed to speciesism (judging, or denying opportunity based on species, similar to sexism or racism) and believe that animals (human and non) should be able to live their lives free from the influence of humans.
It has been proven that to animals do exhibit self-awareness, they have their own languages to varying degrees. Descartes, tho brilliant in his day, can no longer really stand up to modern understanding of these relationships.
I believe it was him who also said that animals were 'automatons', basically like robots. If you spend any time with just about any animal, you can plainly see this is pure bullshit.
Yet, even he agreed that we shouldn't be mean to them. (Why, if they're just robots??) (This might tie into Kant's philosophy..simply pretend i wrote this further down. =)
Even by Kant's arguement (the way you described it) we'd be able to treat people who didn't display a certain amount of 'personhood' with less-than-human treatment. Say, do science experiments on them.
We should extend our compassion and respect because we CAN, not because a dog or cow is somehow more deserving or not.
I don't believe i contradict my own argument. I wouldn't argue that our physiology should dictate our behavior. If that were the case, the strongest folks should be able to do what they want, and us weaker ones do what they say. Real civilized. ;)
We're hardly built to be predators. So what if we have eyes on the front of our head? Silverback gorillas have eyes on the front of their head, they eat only plants. Humans are very fast, agile or strong. We have the delicate fingers, more suited to picking fruit (and eating insects, i'd argue) than tearing the flesh from a downed cow.
That concludes the previous page..onto this page!
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