| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The King Of Karaoke |
Posted - 04/01/2004 : 14:14:04
Sorry, I'm out of funny light hearted stuff to write about lately. I'm currently working on new material. Please bare with me. Until then...
I'm not sure this is appropriate for an internet forum but I just watched this and feel it needs to be seen by those that can handle the reality of what's going on in Iraq right now. This is some of the most graphic news footage I've ever seen. Do not watch this if you can't handle it!! I found this on my crappy website (inside joke) I check for news. The news reports refer to the Americans that were killed Wednesday as "American contractors" I've read we have these companies that we hire that do our dirty work. It was one of these companies that shot down the plane full of civilians last year because they thought they were drug smugglers. I don't remember the details off the top of my head. Was it in Columbia? I have a feeling these people were part of one of these companies. I don't believe they were building contractors, lets put it that way.
One more time. Do not watch this if you aren't in the mood for very a disturbing look at what happened Wednesday!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5972.htm |
| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 13:54:40
I learnt something today.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
| Adnan_le_Terrible |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 04:03:22
quote:
Originally posted by martha_promise
"The world needs this region stabilized"
[quote]Originally posted by mattb
I'm sorry but I laughed when I read this. Again the ignorance shines through like fucking crazy. What needs to be stabilized?
No, you're dead right. The world needs more people dragged through the streets, mutilated, and hung from a bridge. Good point. No need to stabalize anything here.
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~
Well, these pictures from Irak were horrible, like any other pictures from war. It just shows you how men can become wild in no matter of time. I don't think it's a geographical separation, it exists everywhere and in everyone. The behaviour of some American soldiers in the war was not much better (like in Vietnam, for instance). And some racial crimes in the US (against Blacks, for example) were at least that violent. I'm not blaming the US, this exists everywhere.
Don't get me wrong, I do think the Middle East needs change. But atrocities are not, unfortunately, a monopoly of that region.
The problem is, when some people get killed, it's more serious when it happens to others. Don't get me wrong, I did feel concerned with 9/11 but if you take the slaughter in Rwanda, for instance, 600 000 civilians were killed in 6 months, and noone reacted that much, only because they're black Africans. At one point, I remember a Canadian general who was there protesting and saying that people in the West probably feel more concerned with an endangered animal species like pandas than with these human beings.
 |
| martha_promise |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 02:11:44
My God. The shrimp song kicks ass. I think everyone here has a better grasp on the situation than a lot of people. It would be fun to hash it out sober in a non cyber-space venue.
I think everyone's right. yeah,...
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~ |
| Shrimp Scampi |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 22:45:00
Dave Noisy Make Some Noise! You the man!
Mattb is also cool! Ebb + everyone else = losers |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 22:16:36
Thanks Matt. =)
Ebb - not sure how to respond when you don't give any specifics..but perhaps that's for the better..? heh
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| mattb |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 19:19:51
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy
Mattb, I don't see why you linked to a definition of "racism" that is nearly identical to my definition, and then say that I need a clearer idea of the meaning. To say that people are a certain way because they belong to a racial group is racist- to criticize a racial group's chosen culture is not racist. It wouldn't be racist to criticize the culture and society of Germany in the 1930s & 40s.
Your style of arguement gets clearer with every post. It's very easy to dismiss the things I say by asking if I've ever talked to any Muslims. Or you say things like: Well, if that's your opinion then you must be ignorant of the sanctions imposed on Iraq. If you think someone is wrong, all you have to do is give your opinion- it's not enough to give definition links, or say, "You have never talked to a Muslim- therefore your opinion is automatically wrong."
First off, yes it would be racist to criticize the the culture and society of German in the 30's and 40's. What would not be racist is to say that there was a group of people in Germany that had fucked up ideas. If you generalize an entire race of people based on what some of the individuals in that race are doing is exactly what racism is. Case in point when we discuss Germany during that time we refer to Nazis and not Germans because labeling every German during that time as having the same beliefs as nazis is not accurate. You can not make general statements about the entire middle east as saying they are all religious fanatics just as you can not say that every person in the United States thinks the same way. Do you understand what I mean? If you attach a label, any kind of label, that is profiling which when referring to a race is called racism.
I can understand how you can critisize my style of arguement when I was laughing at your arguementes but you can not say that after I posted a proper rebuttal to your points. In fact, you're the one who has dismissed everything I said. I gave arguements to refute every one of your points while you took the easiest points to say mundane comments about and ignored the rest. Opinions are pointless in discussions such as this, what is important, and proves your case is facts, frankly you have not provided any. You've stated what you think numerous times but gave no reasoning behind it besides generalized statements like they're religious fanatics. My comment about you never having talked to anyone Muslim was trying to prove my point that you don't have much basis in fact with your arguements, it's clearly just your perceptions that are the basis of your arguements.
Dave noisy has clearly explained my thoughts regarding why I made the comments about not being able to judge so I don't really want to rehash the same things that he has said. But like he said, empathy for why that action was done is much different than agreeing that it was the the best course of action to take.
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http://www.geocities.com/kittridge1/ |
| Ebb Vicious |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 18:35:30
discussing this with you is impossible, i'm sorry but you just aren't nearly informed enough or even thinking about the situation properly. i'll avoid even trying to do so in the future. |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 12:07:23
I'll apologize in advance if i haven't been clear:
I am empathizing with these people. That is not the same as 'justifying'.
Just as i may try to empathize with someone who committed a crime.
I am not justifying them. I am not saying what they did was 'right' in any form.
What i am saying is that i am trying to understand where this person is coming from. Perhaps they've had a string of horrible events in their life, and this has influenced them to lash out (in a horrible way.)
And perhaps by understanding why this person is acting this way (abused as a child, for example) we can actually FIGURE OUT WHY IT HAPPENED. And more importantly: PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.
This isn't Star Wars, and you won't be 'sucked into the Dark Side' by trying to empathize with someone. (As a matter of fact, i think that's what helped Luke help his father. Sorry if i'm spoiling the movie for anyone. ;)
So one more time now:
I can see why these people are so upset, so OUTRAGED that they would be driven to this type of behaviour.
It's horrible that they'd do this to dead bodies. But it's also horrible that they've been driven to the point where they'd want to do this.
They are not 'maddened religious fanatics' - unlike, as Mattb has pointed out, many would believe.
They are much like you and me.
Except that their country has been bombed, and it was based on utter LIES.
(It's also important to point out and recognize that these people didn't kill the US citizens, and probably wouldn't have gone that far.)
I hope i have made myself clear.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| jimmy |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 11:19:35
I've been thinking, and I have to say: I have many extreme opinions and of all the people I've talked to I don't know one person who agrees with even half of my views. Still, in all the arguements I've had, we can always find some common ground; I think a lot of people agree on the results they'd like to see but have different ideas about how to get there. Still, there are times when the difference of opinion is too great to get past and this is one of those times.
I can't argue with someone who says about the killings in Falluja, "You can't make judgement calls on what these people did without understanding the climate and the conditions that people live under there".
I've said what I wanted to say and I'm done. |
| jimmy |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 10:55:28
Mattb, I don't see why you linked to a definition of "racism" that is nearly identical to my definition, and then say that I need a clearer idea of the meaning. To say that people are a certain way because they belong to a racial group is racist- to criticize a racial group's chosen culture is not racist. It wouldn't be racist to criticize the culture and society of Germany in the 1930s & 40s.
Your style of arguement gets clearer with every post. It's very easy to dismiss the things I say by asking if I've ever talked to any Muslims. Or you say things like: Well, if that's your opinion then you must be ignorant of the sanctions imposed on Iraq. If you think someone is wrong, all you have to do is give your opinion- it's not enough to give definition links, or say, "You have never talked to a Muslim- therefore your opinion is automatically wrong." |
| jimmy |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 10:20:20
Mattb, your post above is one of the most disgusting things I've read in a long time: "You can't make judgement calls on what these people did without understanding the climate and conditions that people have to live under there."
There are two justifications for killing another human being:
1) Self-defence against a person who has initiated force against you.
2) Punishment for a violent crime that a person has committed against another person (And I know there are people who disagree with this point).
Please tell me exactly what the victims did to their killers that they deserved what happened to them. Please explain why the killers are beyond anyone's "judgement calls" after they murdered four complete strangers. |
| mattb |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 10:18:06
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy
Mattb, thanks for writing back. Just like I thought, we're in agreement on a lot of things.
First, though, I have to say: my post was not about the Iraq/US war but religious fanatics in general ( though I can see where my wording could be read the other way). That's a situation I never even argue about, since I see both sides as being wrong in so many ways (I wish it was just over- the soldiers should go home, no "re-building").
Secondly, I don't think it's racist to say that certain people have a fucked-up way of life. Racism is saying that racial groups are a certain way because they were born that way and that all members of the racial group are the same. There is nothing racist in saying that the culture and customs of certain racial groups are wrong. I'm criticizing cultures that value religion, and saying that the more devoted they are, the worse they are.
I think there are a lot of people who see America as a country of godless pornographers who want to corrupt the rest of the world with our money-worship and Madonna videos. And that's fine if they don't like our culture. The problem is when, because of their religious beliefs, they think it is their duty to kill us for it.
Holy shit.... I don't know what to say, I can't believe you just wrote that. Here is a link to the definition of racism so you can be clear what it means:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism
Seriously, do you know anyone who's Muslim? Have you ever had a conversation with anyone who's Muslim? Do you realize that they have varied personalities and values just like christians do?
And for the last fucking time the people who do want to kill us are not trying to kill us for our religious beliefs. Our religious differences are just adding fuel to the fire. We have wronged many of these people. They want revenge and justice which is exactly what anyone of us would want if the tables were reversed.
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http://www.geocities.com/kittridge1/ |
| jimmy |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 09:45:04
Mattb, thanks for writing back. Just like I thought, we're in agreement on a lot of things.
First, though, I have to say: my post was not about the Iraq/US war but religious fanatics in general ( though I can see where my wording could be read the other way). That's a situation I never even argue about, since I see both sides as being wrong in so many ways (I wish it was just over- the soldiers should go home, no "re-building").
Secondly, I don't think it's racist to say that certain people have a fucked-up way of life. Racism is saying that racial groups are a certain way because they were born that way and that all members of the racial group are the same. There is nothing racist in saying that the culture and customs of certain racial groups are wrong. I'm criticizing cultures that value religion, and saying that the more devoted they are, the worse they are.
I think there are a lot of people who see America as a country of godless pornographers who want to corrupt the rest of the world with our money-worship and Madonna videos. And that's fine if they don't like our culture. The problem is when, because of their religious beliefs, they think it is their duty to kill us for it. |
| mattb |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 09:15:29
quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
quote:
originally posted by mattb
LMAO, they're fucked all right, fighting for their freedom, prosperity and stuff while we want to hoard everything. Fuck those assholes! You know what's the most stupid about them, how they don't buy their own weapons to bomb us like we bomb them. Losers, they have to make home made bombs or hijack planes, can't they do the civilized thing like use missles.
Or maybe they could use children as human shields. Oh wait, they already do that.
Again, it amazes me how incidents by individuals are taken as a standard for an entire group of people. Theses examples are the most ridiculous cases of profiling that I have ever heard. I heard this American guy got murdered by someone, I guess all Americans are murderers. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
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http://www.geocities.com/kittridge1/ |
| mattb |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 09:08:12
quote:
Originally posted by martha_promise
"The world needs this region stabilized"
[quote]Originally posted by mattb
I'm sorry but I laughed when I read this. Again the ignorance shines through like fucking crazy. What needs to be stabilized?
No, you're dead right. The world needs more people dragged through the streets, mutilated, and hung from a bridge. Good point. No need to stabalize anything here.
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~
Your point seems to be that every single person in the middle east is like this and it's so barbaric we have to step in. Can you first of all grasp the concept that there are millions of people in Iraq and that taking an incident such as this and implying every single person there is just like this is not accurate? With that mentality anyone who saw the Rodney King riots that happened in LA can imply that the entire country is pissed off and the American justice system is not the will of the people so other countries must step in to stop it. I doubt dragging people through the street like that is a daily occurence there otherwise American media would pounce on it and push the point home how "barbaric" these people are. You can't make judgement calls on what these people did without understanding the climate and the conditions that people have to live there under.
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http://www.geocities.com/kittridge1/ |
| mattb |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 07:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy
mattb, I'm glad that you liked my post so much that you wanted to finish my sentences and complete my thoughts- thank you, but I said all the things I wanted to say.
I appreciate your interest but what I was hoping for was an exchange of arguments.
I've been reading and re-reading your posts and they seem incomplete. For example, if someone says something you disagree with, I don't think it's enough to say that they're ignorant and haven't done enough "research".
And my post was filled with a lot of strong opinions that were just begging to be argued with. When you answer with "LMAO", it suggests the lack of an argument. If you disagree with any of the things I said, please give your arguement.
Honestly, I don't really feel like giving history lessons to prove my point. But ok if you want a discusion here goes:
"The root cause of all the world's problems with killing and terrorism is the people who are religious and take religion seriously. And those people are dangerous in direct proportion to how religious they are. When there are a bunch of people who are devoted to some supernatural belief system, what solution can there ever be when there's a conflict with some other belief system?"
This conflict has nothing to do with religion except that just like the U.S. constantly states they also think that God is on their side. These people are pissed off as hell. They have been screwed by western countries over the last 100 years and they continue to get screwed. It's a cliche thing to say but the U.S. is only there because of oil. This ridiculous claim of having weapons of mass destruction is so moronic I can't believe that anyone believes it. This is a country that has been under sanctions for over 10 years. They didn't have enough money to maintain their infrastructure let alone fund weapons programs. You're clearly not aware of this or you wouldn't have made these comments but the previous Iraqi government was actually the most seperated from the church out of all the countries in the middle east. In fact, this new constitution that they are passing and the lack of adequate policing is finally bringing religious nut cases out of hiding in Iraq. People who own liquor stores or sell western movies are getting death threats and woman for the first time in a very long time in Iraq can't walk down the street by themselves. And yes in case you didn't know they were allowed to do that before. If your equation of degree of religious belief to level of violence is correct then every other country in the middle east should be bombing the hell out of us and be a much bigger threat than Iraq was. If you do think that it has to do with religion, then what is the motivation? That we have a different religion thatn they do? Then that would make practically every country on the planet a target as well.
"Most of the Middle east is filled with completely backwards people and if they weren't sitting on all that oil their own fucked-up way of life would have ended them years ago."
Have you been to the middle east to prove this? Have you even seen seen pictures of Iraq to prove this? People living there have jobs and live in buildings in case you weren't aware. They are educated (because higher education was FREE in Iraq) and they are doctors, lawyers and engineers and live pretty much the same way that we do. Look at all the things the Americans bombed, do you think that they prayed to Allah and these things just magically appeared? How rascist can you be to say they have a fucked up way of life. The American media will have you believe that ever person there is a trained terrorist waiting to strike so we better get them before they get us. It amazes me how some people think that a person living on the other side of the world is not a human being. These people react to things the same way that you would. What makes you angry? I'm sure starving for the last ten years would do it and the country who caused it would be at fault, wouldn't it?. How would you react when you country is being bombed and your friends and family are being killed and losing limbs? You lost your house, you have even less than you had before and these assholes who bombed are now saying hey, let's be friends. It's like gettign raped and then the rapist asking if you can just cuddle for a while. The Americans are fucking up the Iraqi economy so much more know it's unbelieveable. They make you believe (which you have) that it's a helpless country that needs outside contractors and help to rebuild. Whay can't they just use companies in Iraq who originally built these things to rebuild them? A recent example of this was reported how a bridge in Iraq needed to be rebuilt and in the spirit of "fairness" Iraqi companies were allowed ot place bids for the contract. The orginal company that rebuilt the bridge after the first Iraq war placed a bit that for what they could do it. They didn't get the contract and the guy who owned the company contacted the people responsible for the bids and asked what the company who won the bid was doing it for. The company that won was Haliburton and their bid was over ten times that which the Iraqi company bid. there is no logic in that except that every thing is being done to increase American profits from this.
"I'd love to see America isolate itself (stop all the "peace-keeping" operations, stop all the foreign aid to other countries), and then have all the different counties do their own thing and see how things turn out."
Like I said earlier I would love to see that too. And like I said earlier I want them to stop influencing other countries politics first. They have to stop their support of oppressive governments everywhere. Toppling Saddam in Iraq was just gettign rid of the person they helped and supported years before at a time when he actually did have the power and used it to cause shit. Of course he wouldn't have accomplished anything if it wasn't for the U.S. Their idea of help is ridiculous, like after the first Iraqi war when Bush senior pleaded the Iraqi people to help the U.S. rise up against Saddam because it's the only way they will get free. They did and the U.S. did absolutely nothing except sit back and watch as they all got slaughtered. The reason the U.S. didn't help is simple, the majority of the people who were rebeling in Iraq was part of a gropu of Muslims who were at odds with the leaders of the Saudi government. Since Saudi Arabia (who was then our ally but now our enemey, even though none of their brutal policies have changed and they government has remained the same, but that, another story) was against it and the U.S. wanted to keep their bases their and keep them happy nothing was done. So much for Americans loving freedom eh?
"America isn't perfect, but it has the right basic idea. All it needs to do to fix itself is to get back to its original idea- get rid of all the hand-out programs (welfare, medicare, medicaid, Social Security, National Endowment for the Arts) and let people make their own choices and live with the results."
I don't want to open another can of worms so all I'll say is that a government has a certain amount of responsibility for social conditions in their country. Especially when they are responsible for most of the social problems.
"(There are still religious people in America, but they don't really take it seriously. Even our most strict religious people are just phoning it in- here Catholic priests have scored with more boys than NAMBLA and most of the parishiners hardly care.)"
The U.S. like Iraq is extremely varied region by region. Any country you go to will have the same amount of fantics, no more, no less. I think it's extremely unfair to say that everyone in a country is the same way just because a certain group of people are like that.
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http://www.geocities.com/kittridge1/ |
| martha_promise |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 01:46:48
"The world needs this region stabilized"
[quote]Originally posted by mattb
I'm sorry but I laughed when I read this. Again the ignorance shines through like fucking crazy. What needs to be stabilized?
No, you're dead right. The world needs more people dragged through the streets, mutilated, and hung from a bridge. Good point. No need to stabalize anything here.
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~ |
| Adnan_le_Terrible |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 01:37:44
quote:
Originally posted by martha_promise
Dave,
Not to be a dick, but I think you're way off base with attempting to empathize with these people and implying that it's a world wide attitude against the United States of America.
Abeit, animalistic behavior such as this, is slowly being exterminated from Western Civilization, Not that we've haven't had our share (slavery, trail of tears, columbus, spainsih inquisition, ect. x10000) Most of the world has evolved into some semblance of rational thought. (you're all for love and peace right?) Some cultures are just a little slow on the up-take. The world needs this region stabilized.I think it's intellectually dishonest of you to polliticize the events in Fallujah with anti-American rhetoric.
I like your examples : Columbus, Inquisition... For sure, it's over since centuries.
Today we have this rational thought. We can rationnally exterminate 6 million people here in Europe, using rational, industrial methods. No animalistic behaviour. The holocaust was 50 years ago. Not so far. I know some people who were in Auschwitz.
I agree the Middle East needs change. But do you think you can stabilize a region by attacking it? I think it's pretty much the opposite that will happen.
I'm sorry, but I'm highly pessimistic about everything that's going on these days.
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| glacial906 |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 01:22:03
quote:
originally posted by Dave Noisy
Jimmy - you gotta be joking... Mattb sorta covered most of what i would have responded with (perhaps a little too much sarcasm), but the religious people in the US *are* very serious. Serious enough to bomb abortion clinics. Serious enough to make gay marriage near impossible. And serious enough that a certain individual could claim he was given the presidency by God All-mighty Himself.
The people who do this kind of thing seem to be the exception, not the rule. Most religion in the U.S. is so watered-down and P.C. You don't seem to make any distinction between those who use religion as a counter argument to gay marriages and those who bomb abortion clinics. I'd say that, based on the kind of action I've observed the majority of people in the middle east are religious zealots (i.e. fanatics, and equivalent to those who would bomb abortion clinics.)
So apparently if I went to Iraq to be a petroleum geologist it's justified if I happened to be murdered and had my body drug from the back of a car, and then hung up on a bridge? I don't think of the Iraqis as the underdogs that you seem to think they are. I might not agree that our motives for staying in Iraq are the best, but I have never understood how you could consider the regime of Saddam Hussein okay.
Take me, break me, tell me a good one and maybe I'll cry
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| Little Black Francis |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 01:13:34
I'm Bryan Fellows |
| jimmy |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 01:04:33
DN, My point wasn't that America doesn't have religious psychos, my point was that, in general, religious Americans are just going through the motions. I think most of the people that are protesting gay marriage think that if they spend a couple of hours holding a sign that says, "Adam and Eve- Not Adam and Steve", it'll make up for not going to church for the past ten years.
You said, "Let's play nice..." I can't tell if you were joking, serious, or half-serious (I saw the smiley face); if you were serious, ( I don't see anything mattb or I said that wasn't playing nice) what exactly was the problem?
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| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 00:08:06
Ebb wrote:
<<do you sit around empathizing with american and canadian religious zealots and bigots too?>>
Huh? The Iraqi's were bombed over LIES. How does this compare?
And i'm compelled to empathize because i saw them on this video and am aware of what they might be thinking. I didn't read the article, but i don't know how much of this is religious, or how much is their total dismay and frustration with US actions.
In your original message you said it was their lying leaders. Now it's lying priests? Which is it?
<<i don't want this to turn into a "was the US right to invade?" debate, because the answer is irrelevant (and i would say no anyway.)>>
If you can say that bombing and taking over their country based on lies and deceit is irrelevant, than i have no base for this discussion...
<<the point is those people are barely that at all, they are ignorant, uneducated rabble which is being manipulated into a feverish mob.>>
This seems like a gross generalization. Maybe you're right. I'm not convinced.
<<before i go, though, did anyone else find it incredibly ironic that many of those people were wearing western style clothes and hanging the guy off of a bridge built on western engineering?>>
Maybe they have a sense of humor and were being ironic. ;)
Jimmy - you gotta be joking... Mattb sorta covered most of what i would have responded with (perhaps a little too much sarcasm), but the religious people in the US *are* very serious. Serious enough to bomb abortion clinics. Serious enough to make gay marriage near impossible. And serious enough that a certain individual could claim he was given the presidency by God All-mighty Himself.
Bush may not be as overt as Islamic folks, but he is as much a religious nut as any of them. I'd even say considerably more religious than Saddam.
Let's play nice now...including you Matt.. =)
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| jimmy |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 23:06:46
mattb, I'm glad that you liked my post so much that you wanted to finish my sentences and complete my thoughts- thank you, but I said all the things I wanted to say.
I appreciate your interest but what I was hoping for was an exchange of arguments.
I've been reading and re-reading your posts and they seem incomplete. For example, if someone says something you disagree with, I don't think it's enough to say that they're ignorant and haven't done enough "research".
And my post was filled with a lot of strong opinions that were just begging to be argued with. When you answer with "LMAO", it suggests the lack of an argument. If you disagree with any of the things I said, please give your arguement. |
| glacial906 |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 21:47:36
quote:
originally posted by mattb
LMAO, they're fucked all right, fighting for their freedom, prosperity and stuff while we want to hoard everything. Fuck those assholes! You know what's the most stupid about them, how they don't buy their own weapons to bomb us like we bomb them. Losers, they have to make home made bombs or hijack planes, can't they do the civilized thing like use missles.
Or maybe they could use children as human shields. Oh wait, they already do that.
quote:
Nope, no one who takes religion seriosly at all in North America LMAO
We don't take religion seriously like people of middle-eastern descent. (Many of them, anyway.) Here in the U.S. religion has been, like everything else, bastardized into a simple tool of political manipulation. We claim separation of church and state, but yet "god" still pops into the picture whenever there is an idea (like homosexuals getting married) that the administration doesn't like. Whenever there is an issue (like the judge who got fired for having a statue of the ten commandments in the court room...I think his name was Moore..?) that people get offended by, it is quickly pointed out that the bible (or religion in general) has no place in the government of the United States. Yet, strangely enough, when the aforementioned gay marriage subject comes up, the strongest argument that people are able to muster up has to do with this country being founded on Christian principles and so on and so forth...) I realize that this is not directly related to the events in Iraq, but it does illustrate how big a difference there is in the way the two nations view religion, and compared to them, I really don't think we do take it very seriously.
Take me, break me, tell me a good one and maybe I'll cry
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| mattb |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 21:22:40
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy
The root cause of all the world's problems with killing and terrorism is the people who are religious and take religion seriously. And those people are dangerous in direct proportion to how religious they are. When there are a bunch of people who are devoted to some supernatural belief system, what solution can there ever be when there's a conflict with some other belief system?
LMAO, so I suppose getting fucked around by other countries has absoultely nothing to do with being pissed off? It must be Allah right? When will those stupid towel heads learn like we did after the crusades that fighting over religion doesn't solve anything. That's so in the past for western countries, we know religion is bullshit, money is the real thing to fight over!
quote:
Most of the Middle east is filled with completely backwards people and if they weren't sitting on all that oil their own fucked-up way of life would have ended them years ago.
LMAO, they're fucked all right, fighting for their freedom, prosperity and stuff while we want to hoard everything. Fuck those assholes! You know what's the most stupid about them, how they don't buy their own weapons to bomb us like we bomb them. Losers, they have to make home made bombs or hijack planes, can't they do the civilized thing like use missles. What the hell is their problem, do they not have any money or something? They should go get jobs instead of sitting on welfare.
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I'd love to see America isolate itself (stop all the "peace-keeping" operations, stop all the foreign aid to other countries), and then have all the different counties do their own thing and see how things turn out.
You're 100% right. What I would love to see too is America stopping fucking around with these countries all together. You know, stop installing puppet governments, organizing coups, stuff like that.
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America isn't perfect, but it has the right basic idea. All it needs to do to fix itself is to get back to its original idea- get rid of all the hand-out programs (welfare, medicare, medicaid, Social Security, National Endowment for the Arts) and let people make their own choices and live with the results.
You make some good points mein fuhrer! Screw the old and the poor, they're just lazy and probably black too.
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(There are still religious people in America, but they don't really take it seriously. Even our most strict religious people are just phoning it in- here Catholic priests have scored with more boys than NAMBLA and most of the parishiners hardly care.)
Nope, no one who takes religion seriosly at all in North America LMAO
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http://www.geocities.com/kittridge1/ |
| Ebb Vicious |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 21:13:37
why did i ever think that sarcasm wouldn't go over your heads? anyone who uses the word "cowboy" in a political debate loses almost as fast as someone who uses "nazi".
dave:
do you sit around empathizing with american and canadian religious zealots and bigots too?
"i wonder what makes those rednecks hate black people so much? it must be tough being inbred."
no, because it's ludicrous. likewise, those people are beyond rational thought, and trying to "empathize" with them is masturbatory. it's to try to make yourself feel like you're such an uber open minded fellow, and so much better than everyone else.
the useful thing to think about is what is really causing them to act that way. not how they feel. think about the real cause. the real cause is ignorance, lack of education.
you forget, they don't have CNN there. they don't have NPR. there *might* be one TV in the village. they only know what's going on in the world through what they're told.
your attitude comes from a very weak grasp of the real situation.
look in that video, do you see bomb damage in those shots? because i don't.
yes a lot of bombs were dropped on iraq, and some of those were in or near civilian locations, but many were not.
i don't want this to turn into a "was the US right to invade?" debate, because the answer is irrelevant (and i would say no anyway.)
the point is those people are barely that at all, they are ignorant, uneducated rabble which is being manipulated into a feverish mob. they are not thinking like you or i, they are reacting purely on emotion, and that emotion comes from being told every day constantly that the US is a big evil giant trying to take away their culture and take over the world. while that may be true of george bush, it's not true of the US as a whole.
talking about an entire country as having a holier than thou attitude is fucking retarded. i was talking about it on an individual level. ie, a lot of CANADIANS seem to be adopting it. i didn't say CANADA has adopted it. there's a big distinction there, maybe you don't see it.
whatever, i'm bored of talking at you, since it doesn't seem to be getting through.
before i go, though, did anyone else find it incredibly ironic that many of those people were wearing western style clothes and hanging the guy off of a bridge built on western engineering? |
| jimmy |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 20:48:55
The root cause of all the world's problems with killing and terrorism is the people who are religious and take religion seriously. And those people are dangerous in direct proportion to how religious they are. When there are a bunch of people who are devoted to some supernatural belief system, what solution can there ever be when there's a conflict with some other belief system?
Most of the Middle east is filled with completely backwards people and if they weren't sitting on all that oil their own fucked-up way of life would have ended them years ago.
I'd love to see America isolate itself (stop all the "peace-keeping" operations, stop all the foreign aid to other countries), and then have all the different counties do their own thing and see how things turn out.
America isn't perfect, but it has the right basic idea. All it needs to do to fix itself is to get back to its original idea- get rid of all the hand-out programs (welfare, medicare, medicaid, Social Security, National Endowment for the Arts) and let people make their own choices and live with the results.
(There are still religious people in America, but they don't really take it seriously. Even our most strict religious people are just phoning it in- here Catholic priests have scored with more boys than NAMBLA and most of the parishiners hardly care.) |
| mattb |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 20:25:34
quote:
Originally posted by martha_promise
Dave,
Not to be a dick, but I think you're way off base with attempting to empathize with these people and implying that it's a world wide attitude against the United States of America.
Abeit, animalistic behavior such as this, is slowly being exterminated from Western Civilization, Not that we've haven't had our share (slavery, trail of tears, columbus, spainsih inquisition, ect. x10000) Most of the world has evolved into some semblance of rational thought. (you're all for love and peace right?) Some cultures are just a little slow on the up-take. The world needs this region stabilized.I think it's intellectually dishonest of you to polliticize the events in Fallujah with anti-American rhetoric.
By the way, you guys did a rockin' good job on the new FB song database!
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~
I'm going to get flamed for this but here goes anyway.
I would like every American especially those who are making comments in this thread to research the history of what The United States, the United Kingdom and numerous other western countries have done to countries in the middle east (and numerous others) since the beginning of the 20th century before they make they're opinions known on this board. The U.S. media is incredibly biased (as all media is) and unfortunately people's opinions are shaped by them, I know mine are too. It's just the simple fact of being given another perspective of what's going on in the world will help you make more constructive critisisms of what is going on in international politics today.
This comment is extremely closed minded:
"The world needs this region stabilized"
I'm sorry but I laughed when I read this. Again the ignorance shines through like fucking crazy. What needs to be stabilized? The fact that Western ideologies are not in these people's radars? The fact that they don't want to bend over and let us fuck them up the ass in order to reach our economic goals? Please, this is a rehash of every bullshit speech by Bush.
"Not to be a dick, but I think you're way off base with attempting to empathize with these people and implying that it's a world wide attitude against the United States of America."
I almost pissed myself when I read this. Like I mentioned earlier stop watching CNN and all the other bullshit that is feeding you this crap. The people who are against the U.S. are obvioulsy pissed off because they're jealous of American freedom, right?
Don't get me wrong though. I have nothing against America as a group of people. What I do have a problem with is neo-conservative manifestos being implemented through America's government and the media feeding people a bunch of bullshit that is trying to justify these actions. Actually, it's not even neo-conservatices because this crap has been going on forever and not just by the U.S. France for example has been all high and mighty that they don't want to attack Iraq because it's the wrong thing to do blah, blah, blah. What they don't tell you though is that France has (had) contracts with Iraq worth billions that went down the drain since the old Iraqi government got toppled.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that every country in the world cares absolutely nothing about the people who live there and like always the number one reason for anything to do with foreign policy is $$$. Before you belive any crap that it's about helping the people there or anything like that do a little research about what's really going on.
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| martha_promise |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 19:41:23
Not to be a dick, but I think it's way off base to attempt to empathize with these people and imply that it's a world wide attitude against the United States of America.
Abeit, animalistic behavior such as this, is slowly being exterminated from Western Civilization, Not that we've haven't had our share (slavery, trail of tears, columbus, spainsih inquisition, ect. x10000) Most of the world has evolved into some semblance of rational thought. (you're all for love and peace right?) Some cultures are just a little slow on the up-take. The world needs this region stabilized.I think it's intellectually dishonest to polliticize the events in Fallujah with anti-American rhetoric.
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~ |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 12:50:23
Ebb - i'm trying to empathize with these people. See why they're feeling the way they do.
Maybe you're right, maybe it's their leaders lying to them. Or, also, maybe they didn't like having the shit bombed out of them, based on lies.
As i said - imagine yourself feeling so hurt by another country, that you'd behave like them.
<<now whether the iraqis have reason to be angry with america is not what i'm trying to debate here>>
Of course not, it's pretty clear how these particular folks feel!
<<what i'm annoyed with is your implication that their dragging of dead people from a burning car, mutilating the bodies and publicly displaying them is at all justified on any level.>>
Here you are putting words in my mouth. I already said it was distubing. It's absolutely horrific is what it is, for the people who died, for the people who are participating, and for the families of those who died.
<<the bullshit holier than thou attitude that some canadians seem to have adopted is fucking ridiculous.>>
Come on - this isn't a 'Canadian' attitude - it's a global attitude, and is in direct response to the source of this: the US 'holier-than-thou' attitude.
Which put them (the US) in Iraq in the first place. Most in opposition aren't guilting of going to war on false accusations.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| The King Of Karaoke |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 12:48:01
Surprise, Surprise. Mercenaries. Thanks for the earlier info. on them Alps.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=4740294 |
| Mroocore |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 09:57:19
during conversations w/ my international friends, i often conduct mental polls/surveys. through directed questions about their feelings of American society and America's use of military. i have been able to come to some general conclusions.
they all agree w/ the American ideologies, and also find America to be a wonderful place. most of them come from countries w/ at least a US militery base. their problem is w/ the means not the end. they all seem to agree that, to force ideologies thru military conquest/campaigns will be the cause of events such as wednesdays distrubing murders.
this is not to say that these "four civilians" got what they deserved, that dicussion needs more time and attention than i currently have, but the people of Iraq have only responded in kind to the treatment they have received. hostility begets hostility.
i find that many of my foreign friends opinions mirror mine. America or the American society, one of the greatest in the world, is not to blame for these issues. the problem is the cycle of violence that has created some kind of west v. east downward spiral. no leadership has been able to stop this. no president, no prime minister, no king, no religious leader, no one. until the violence ends sadly, these events will continue.
i do not have a problem w/ the use of force, in fact in some cases i strongly promote it. i believe that a nation should defend it's borders, people and interest throughout the world. the use of the US military as some kind of western idealogy police is not one of those cases. this is when i have a problem.
 PENGU LIES |
| The King Of Karaoke |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 08:46:00
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Originally posted by mattb
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[you only have your own country because we think it's cute to watch your leaders try to address a serious issue while saying 'aboot' and 'PRO-gress'.
It's exactly this jerk off cowboy attitude why 3/4 of the world wants to wipe the U.S. off the map and it was a hillarious joke too! Turn off the CNN and whack your self in the head with a hammer a few times instead, it'll be the same thing, you won't notice a difference.
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Well put.
Someone please save me down here! I'm surrounded by mindless plastic flag waving Zombies. They for the most part go about their day to day activities in a fairly docile manner but If you tell them their plastic flags are stupid, they attack with merciless force. They appear to be hypnotised by these mind control devices. The bigger the mind control device the happier they are with their lives. They spend most of their free time sitting in family groups in front of these "televisions" not speaking to each other. Judging from the size of them (their asses are fucking huge!), they appear to be preparing for the apocolypse by storing energy in the form of blubber. They acheive this goal via what's known as "fast food" and bags of the latest crunchy crap that the "television" tells them to go out right away and feed to their humongous offspring. They appear to need their food as fast as possible so they can hurry home to begin the nightly ritual of sitting in front of the mind control device not speaking to each other. They think "culture" is something you make yogurt with.
Please help!
Damn dirty apes! |
| vigorstrength |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 08:18:22
Just a reminder how screwed up their society is. They'll need lots of work and lots of time. |
| mattb |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 08:16:31
quote:
[you only have your own country because we think it's cute to watch your leaders try to address a serious issue while saying 'aboot' and 'PRO-gress'.
It's exactly this jerk off cowboy attitude why 3/4 of the world wants to wipe the U.S. off the map and it was a hillarious joke too! Turn off the CNN and whack your self in the head with a hammer a few times instead, it'll be the same thing, you won't notice a difference.
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