| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ricj |
Posted - 11/11/2020 : 12:58:05
Back in 2003 when The Catholics played their last gig and we all looked forward to the forthcoming Pixies reunion, I fully expected another Catholics album and/or tour in a couple of years - especially when it became clear that there was going to be no new Pixies album in the 00's. But who'd have thought back then, that we'd potentially never see them onstage or hear from them again...
Since then, I've always wondered why, whenever Charles returned to solo work (both live and on record) that he chose to work with a completely different set of musicians? I always assumed that it wasn't planned for the Catholics to end and wonder if they knew during that last gig at Shepherds Bush that it'd be the last time they'd share a stage together? It just seems so strange for FB to make all those incredible albums with The Catholics and then never work with those people again.
Like most others on here, I'd give anything to see them do something again but since the complete lack of any interest during the release period of the Catholics box set, it seems now that we really might never hear from them again... Truly a massive shame. |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| two reelers |
Posted - 03/12/2021 : 13:34:36
Oh I see, apologies!
Nonetheless, Manitoba is one of my favorites. Such a chilling story (pun intended) and wrapped in such a warm song.
And still hoping for the FB and Friends circus.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 03/12/2021 : 06:35:36
Yes, this Eric performed with his wife (Cynthia) on SMYT (and specifically Manitoba). He and Cynthia also appeared on the You Ain't Me tribute album to perform a pretty cool version of South Bay featuring pedal steel.
 "If we hit this bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
| Discoking |
Posted - 03/12/2021 : 01:48:23
quote:
Originally posted by two reelers
Oh, i realize EDF is posting here... exciting!
i believe you're confusing different erics.
 it's educational |
| two reelers |
Posted - 03/11/2021 : 06:04:26
Oh, i realize EDF is posting here... exciting!
Eric, thank you for all the music!
And it would be great to have a Catholics reunion kind of thing. I know it is highly unlikely, for the practical and financial reasons you have cited. But nonetheless, in my dream world I imagine it to be like a circus, stretched over some days in the same location. Having all or many of Frank's collaborators over the years stop by, play a couple of songs. Who knows, maybe for his 60th birthday. Hearing Lyle again on those COR and self-titled album songs, your keys on Trompe to SMYT songs, etc. etc. ...
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
| echo park |
Posted - 03/01/2021 : 01:01:07
quote:
Originally posted by two reelers
quote:
Originally posted by ricj
I now wonder if this explains Scott's absence from some of that final tour? Perhaps that's where the animosity lay? I don't think I've ever seen a single live video where he doesn't look miserable as sin (but maybe that's just his concentrating face)..
No, Scott got a child while on tour and flew back for the birth.
I think this whole fist-fight thing etc. is largely exaggerated.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band
yeah i think Charles was being ironic with the press as he often was, when he mentioned such tropes as trashing the tour bus, and such old timey words as 'fisticuffs'. but sure enough, some of the Catholics' family relationships were becoming strained from the incredible work ethic. i was there for their final recording sessions on SMYT, and the creative spirit was still very high. i didn't notice any animosity , but recording live to 2-track had us doing 17 live takes until 2am in Hollywood. i was a hungry musician in L.A. and ate it up, but Scott, Dave C, and Rich all had family at home on the east coast. the sessions were bolstered by having many special guests on most nights, but those variables added to the hours. Charles and Jean lived here in L.A. and Charles had tons of relaxed energy to keep working *and* do a big stage show with David Thomas - "Mirror Man", etc. we finished "Manitoba" on a Sunday night, the album was mastered by Wednesday that week, and i believe the band hit the road by the end of that week for a couple months of touring! Charles and Jean were in the process of defining their relationship and life goals. we actually started making "couples plans" to go hiking and go to oddball movies, etc. so Cynthia and i felt that they were planning to remain a couple.
but something did change during the tour. the main thing i knew, was by the time the Catholics got back to L.A., Charles and Jean had decided to split up. i had a very warm catch up with Charles who seemed at peace with the decision. but he was heading to Portland *the next day*, and wanted to reset for a while. the band seemed happy to have some free time ahead, and nobody seemed especially cranky. Scott was very excited to get home to see their baby. Dave Phillips' lady was there for the last show and they seemed ecstatic to see each other. maybe something else happened that was a last straw, but it never came up while catching up with Charles, Rich, or Dave over the years.
Charles and i are the same age... i had two bands in the time of the Catholics that were quite cracking and got good gigs (for locals, anyway). once we started traveling together, i found myself wanting to spend less of my down time with them, but still played good gigs. and while we've considered reunions, we all live in different places now, some have kids, most are still playing but if they're gonna tour, it's gotta pay pretty well. we all record for movies and stuff, like Lyle - but not nearly as cool as Lyle! now that Dave Phillips has passed, it's even harder to imagine. Charles never seemed to look back. only when Pixies became a worldwide phenomenon purely from their legacy did he come to embrace it as a career, a sustainable way to play music and have five freaking kids! |
| two reelers |
Posted - 01/14/2021 : 01:20:21
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
Sounds to me like typical band burnout, due to them realizing they were KICKING FUCKING ASS constantly, but never really doing much more than perhaps breaking even, and never being seen by the concert and/or record industry (here in the USA at least) as much more than a small-time club band with a devout cult following.
As far as the whole "we were doing a lot of fighting near the end" thing goes, all I get out of those quotes is that the group was *arguing*, with some or all of the members starting to lose faith in FBF's mission statement for the band as being live-to-2-track only, and yearning to do more production-heavy, overdub-style sessions.
Probably because they felt that could result in more commercially viable -- or perhaps just more artistically satisfying -- results.
Once your fellow musicians start doubting your leadership, it's often a few short steps to a total mutiny or them simply abandoning ship.
I think FBF saw the writing on the wall, and the snake in him felt it was best to just move on, rather than try to force the rest of the guys to keep doing things his way, if their hearts weren't in it anymore.
People seem to be conflating his quotes on the Pixies "fighting" and that leading to a short break in touring (which allowed him to do his Nashville thing) with their memories of the Catholics ending, and that has resulted in a sort of rock and roll Mandela Effect where some mistakenly believe the Catholics had a brawl or something of the sort, when nothing like that was ever mentioned.
Just my .02, for whatever they may be worth.
--
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
Yes, I see it exactly the same. During the Box set release, Frank even said they were talking about doing a Catholics show (which unfortunately never happened), so I guess it was half that bad during the break up.
I dream about a long show at Frank's 60 birthday, lining up all his collaborators throughout the years. With Lyle Workman having a bin taped to his head again. And Rich Gilbert shooting with his guitar into the audience during Thalassocracy. EDF playing the intro to Bird Dream. Kim Deal doing some harmonies. Etc. etc.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
| ricj |
Posted - 01/14/2021 : 01:18:44
Yeah that all makes perfect sense. I guess it's just the fact that they never did anything ever again that influenced me to start this thread.. I mean, unless something really terrible happened, it just seems a bit weird that after working so well together for so long and sharing some seriously special musical chemistry, after a few years apart they still had absolutely no inclination to do a single thing together again?!
I remember around the time of Bluefinger/Svn Fngers etc, before the 'new', full time Pixies suddenly re-appeared, I was completely expecting another Catholics project to appear at some point..
And then when the box set came out I thought that if nothing happens now, it never will. And it didn't... |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 01/13/2021 : 22:28:13
Sounds to me like typical band burnout, due to them realizing they were KICKING FUCKING ASS constantly, but never really doing much more than perhaps breaking even, and never being seen by the concert and/or record industry (here in the USA at least) as much more than a small-time club band with a devout cult following.
As far as the whole "we were doing a lot of fighting near the end" thing goes, all I get out of those quotes is that the group was *arguing*, with some or all of the members starting to lose faith in FBF's mission statement for the band as being live-to-2-track only, and yearning to do more production-heavy, overdub-style sessions.
Probably because they felt that could result in more commercially viable -- or perhaps just more artistically satisfying -- results.
Once your fellow musicians start doubting your leadership, it's often a few short steps to a total mutiny or them simply abandoning ship.
I think FBF saw the writing on the wall, and the snake in him felt it was best to just move on, rather than try to force the rest of the guys to keep doing things his way, if their hearts weren't in it anymore.
People seem to be conflating his quotes on the Pixies "fighting" and that leading to a short break in touring (which allowed him to do his Nashville thing) with their memories of the Catholics ending, and that has resulted in a sort of rock and roll Mandela Effect where some mistakenly believe the Catholics had a brawl or something of the sort, when nothing like that was ever mentioned.
Just my .02, for whatever they may be worth.
--
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 12/30/2020 : 20:46:10
It's curious that I didn't remember any of that until it was brought up. I think I also dismissed it, but seeing a couple accounts I'm not so sure how exaggerated it was anymore.
"If we hit this bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
| two reelers |
Posted - 12/30/2020 : 09:26:35
quote:
Originally posted by ricj
I now wonder if this explains Scott's absence from some of that final tour? Perhaps that's where the animosity lay? I don't think I've ever seen a single live video where he doesn't look miserable as sin (but maybe that's just his concentrating face)..
No, Scott got a child while on tour and flew back for the birth.
I think this whole fist-fight thing etc. is largely exaggerated.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
| Troubles A Foot |
Posted - 12/30/2020 : 08:33:30
quote:
Originally posted by ricj
I now wonder if this explains Scott's absence from some of that final tour? Perhaps that's where the animosity lay? I don't think I've ever seen a single live video where he doesn't look miserable as sin (but maybe that's just his concentrating face)..
I'd say the same thing about Frank, actually. His stage presence seems to be "I'd rather be doing anything else, let's get through this." |
| ricj |
Posted - 12/27/2020 : 02:29:48
quote:
Originally posted by DruggedBunnyToo
Just logged in for the first time in ever and saw this post... and I remember reference to either fistfights or fisticuffs on a tour bus!
Google turns up nothing, but I finally found this thread, which includes me (as DruggedBunny) mentioning it, but others then joined in to validate... pretty sure they'd be over whatever it was though!
http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20093
I think he responded long after that (but many years ago) quite positively to the idea of The Catholics reforming, though obviously it never happened and probably, sadly, not likely now.
--
DruggedBunnyToo
Thanks for that. Kind of validates how I've felt for years and the reason why I started this thread.
Logically, there isn't any other reason for the Catholics never to have done a single thing together again other than lingering bad blood. What a shame to finally have it confirmed though...
In a way it was kind of inevitable really though.. I mean, for 4-5 people to spend practically 9 years together on a tourbus doing endless gigs, loading their own equipment and playing marathon setlists, I think anyone would end up at their wits end at some point.
I now wonder if this explains Scott's absence from some of that final tour? Perhaps that's where the animosity lay? I don't think I've ever seen a single live video where he doesn't look miserable as sin (but maybe that's just his concentrating face).. |
| The Maharal |
Posted - 12/12/2020 : 13:14:44
Wow, always love reading the old threads. Not sure if I'd heard this before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsW73it5vvM |
| DruggedBunnyToo |
Posted - 12/11/2020 : 20:11:40
Just logged in for the first time in ever and saw this post... and I remember reference to either fistfights or fisticuffs on a tour bus!
Google turns up nothing, but I finally found this thread, which includes me (as DruggedBunny) mentioning it, but others then joined in to validate... pretty sure they'd be over whatever it was though!
http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20093
I think he responded long after that (but many years ago) quite positively to the idea of The Catholics reforming, though obviously it never happened and probably, sadly, not likely now.
--
DruggedBunnyToo
|
| vilainde |
Posted - 11/18/2020 : 09:54:06
quote:
Originally posted by two reelers
I think Dave P played somewhat recently (few years) live with Frank, or did some recording with him.
Dave Philips plays on Nonstoperotik
https://www.discogs.com/Black-Francis-Nonstoperotik/release/2614047
Denis
|
| ricj |
Posted - 11/17/2020 : 08:13:57
I agree with a lot of what you said and i don't necessarily think that all the songs on Indie Cindy sound like solo material but on the last BF solo album (Nonstoperotik) it felt like he was flirting with a lot of new (for him at least) styles of writing and to me at least, when I first heard the new Pixies stuff (with the exception of Bagboy), I thought it sounded more like solo material than Pixies material. This is total speculation on my part but I got the feeling that Bagboy was definitely written in a Pixies style as I have a feeling it may have been worked up with Kim in the (abortive) sessions leading up to her departure (I was sure at first that they were her backing vocals). When the first EP came out though, I remember thinking that it sounded a lot more like BF solo material than Pixies (not a bad thing at all for me). The other part of my speculation is that he possibly used a mixture of fully formed songs he had in reserve and then wrote new songs in a more deliberate Pixes style to fill out the EP's. I'm sure I remember a couple of songs from IC being performed at solo shows quite a while before the news about Kim's departure and the new Pixies recordings. |
| Troubles A Foot |
Posted - 11/15/2020 : 20:30:50
quote:
Originally posted by ricj
I always thought that a lot of the stuff on Indie Cindy was probably sitting there waiting to become a BF solo album (until Kim left and a new Pixies album became a possibility) whereas HC and BTE were written as Pixies records.
So strange. I think the exact opposite. Indie Cindy to me seems obviously like Frank intentionally writing in the Pixies style, and HC and BTE sound like Catholics albums to me for the most part, like he said to hell with forcing the Pixies style and just went back to his natural songwriting inclinations that he had come to after a few decades.
Indie Cindy has songs that could never be Catholics or even BF solo songs. What Goes Boom, Bagboy, Magdalena, Blue Eyed Hexe, these all sound like Pixies songs (or warped versions of Pixies songs to me.) Frank screaming, sing-talking the highly sexually charged surreal lyrics. He stopped writing those kinds of lyrics for the most part in his solo career and it's a clear conscious return to that.
Head Carrier and Beneath The Eyrie for the most part sound like Catholics albums to me. The title track Head Carrier has that country Catholics chorus ("I'm goin' down the drain...") Might As Well Be Gone is totally a Catholics song in spirit. Even Talent seems more like one of those fun Catholics tunes than a Pixies tune. Bel Espirit, the road traveling Um Chagga Lagga, these also really feel like Catholics to me.
On Beneath The Eyrie, I mean to me the whole thing sounds like the Catholics. Graveyard Hill, Catfish Kate, This Is My Fate, Silver Bullet...I mean damn these are Catholics songs. Daniel Boone and Death Horizon remind me of the beautiful way many Catholics albums end, with this kind of country death feel.
Even the way Frank sings...on Indie he sounds like that young Pixies Frank on a lot of songs (really What Goes Boom)...on the other two albums he sounds more comfortable doing his more natural, mature and gruff relaxed singing voice. No higher pitched yelling. I'm speaking generally.
Even the production styles...Indie sounds more huge and surprising like a Pixies album, and the other two have a more straight Catholics-style stripped down production (maybe BTE is kind of a blend of those two approaches.)
I'm aware I'm in an insane minority here. All the reviews of these albums summed up to "Indie Cindy isn't the Pixies! But THEY ARE BACK WITH HEAD CARRIER / BENEATH THE EYRIE!" It was always completely crazy to me that this was the narrative. I don't understand what people are hearing. |
| ricj |
Posted - 11/14/2020 : 02:07:47
I absolutely LOVED Bluefinger, SVN FNGRS, Golem and Nonstoperotik and I also loved Indie Cindy but for some reason Head Carrier and Beneath the Eyrie didn't do all that much for me. I always thought that a lot of the stuff on Indie Cindy was probably sitting there waiting to become a BF solo album (until Kim left and a new Pixies album became a possibility) whereas HC and BTE were written as Pixies records. Not sure what that says about my tastes but it tells me that for whatever reasons, I prefer Charles' solo material over the 'new' Pixies material. And that just adds to my sadness that there will be no more solo material...! |
| two reelers |
Posted - 11/13/2020 : 20:17:57
At the occasion of the Catholics box set, Frank mentioned that they were talking about a possible Catholics tour/concert. Unfortunately, that did not materialize.
I think Dave P played somewhat recently (few years) live with Frank, or did some recording with him.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
| Brank_Flack |
Posted - 11/13/2020 : 11:38:00
I'm grateful for the Catholics material, but I think they probably reached their logical conclusion with their great run of alt-country albums from the early 2000s. Post 2007 Charles became more interested in revisiting the Black Francis style, which yielded some great results like Bluefinger, SVN FNGRS and the Golem. Now that the Pixies are recording again, have clicked into gear with Beneath the Eyrie, can actually make considerable money off touring, and have healthy inter-band dynamics with the addition of Paz, it makes both more commercial and artistic sense to dedicate himself fully to the Pixies. As much as I love the 2000s Catholics, you can't do much better than Charles + Joey.
|
| Stevio10 |
Posted - 11/12/2020 : 23:04:27
According to discogs Dave Philips and Rich Gilbert did play some part on Fast Man Raider Man.
https://www.discogs.com/Frank-Black-Fast-Man-Raider-Man/master/265326
I believe that only leaves Dave and Scott that he hasn't worked with in some way since the end of the Catholics.
Though I probably wouldn't read too much into that as they have been busy with Polaris and Miracle Legion reunions with FB ally Mark Mulcahy.
I saw them on that 2003 tour, didn't think that would be their last tour. |
| ricj |
Posted - 11/12/2020 : 12:52:37
Who'd have thought pre-2004 that I'd be desperately missing and wishing for FB solo output over another Pixies album...! |
| Bedbug |
Posted - 11/12/2020 : 12:34:19
quote:
Originally posted by pixie punk
https://www.nme.com/news/music/pixies-193-1202847
PUERTO RICO PIXIE
I remember reading this article when it came out. It's as sad now as it was then. Sadder actually.
|
| pixie punk |
Posted - 11/12/2020 : 09:36:01
https://www.nme.com/news/music/pixies-193-1202847
PUERTO RICO PIXIE |
| ricj |
Posted - 11/12/2020 : 01:23:42
Thanks for the replies, good to see that people do still post on here!
I guess in a nutshell, I just find it a bit strange that even after a few years away from each other, there seemed to be a conscious decision to not work with that band again. Especially since there was obviously a ridiculous level of chemistry there between them in the years up to 2003. I just figured there must have been a reason on Charles' part to not make another Catholics album (or tour). Even in his final, super prolific, solo period between Bluefinger and Nonstoperotik. |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 11/12/2020 : 00:02:32
If I am not mistaken, I believe Lyle Workman was asked by FBF to handle arranging the charts for the Nashville session musicians to use during the fast-paced, marathon sessions for what became HONEYCOMB and FMRM, which he did.
Plus, if you count EDF as a Catholic (he played on at least two of their albums, produced some of the sessions and toured a bit with the band), he has continued to work with FBF both live and in the studio ever since...
--
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 11/11/2020 : 14:04:11
I don't believe there is any acrimony or at least it wasn't something shared. If I recall, around the time of Show Me Your Tears, there were just a lot of things coming up in pretty much every Catholic's personal lives that just made it time to say enough. Charles was separated from his wife, I believe it was Dave P that just had his first child, things like that. They were all exhausted from the grueling tours and schlepping their own equipment. And I think there was a feeling, though this was never stated, just my feeling, that the Catholics had gone as far as they were going to go, that if they continued, this was their life, being their own roadies, playing small-to-medium clubs and being on the road or studio (or both) most of the time. All those things that we loved about them - the intimate venues and tight, no-setlist, live to two-track performance standards - made it a hard go.
As well, in FB.Net podcast 20, Charles recounted a story about Dave P playing with Robert Pollard of Guided By Voices and so certainly they at least are still friendly. That was recorded on the FMRM tour, so post Catholics. I do think but can't produce a specific example that there have been some one-off collaborations with various Catholics since SMYT.
"If we hit this bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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