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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-

USA
5154 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  08:18:32  Show Profile  Visit Broken Face's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

Not to go there but, were key and auto tune any kind of issues during 1.0 era?



That's a good question bed bug.



Auto tune wasn't invented then.

- Brian
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Bedbug
* Dog in the Sand *

1674 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  08:24:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Was key invented then?
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-

USA
5154 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  08:26:18  Show Profile  Visit Broken Face's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

Was key invented then?



Is this a joke?

- Brian
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Bedbug
* Dog in the Sand *

1674 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  08:30:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face

quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

Was key invented then?



Is this a joke?

- Brian



That just reminded me of Nigel Tufnel, the way he says that to the rest of the band, "is this a joke?"

No, it's not a joke, it's a round about plea for someone to answer the first part of my question.

(Thank you Broken Face for answering the second part).

All this key talk centers around Paz. Was there / is there any key talk in regards to Mrs. Murphy?
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-

USA
5154 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  08:38:06  Show Profile  Visit Broken Face's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face

quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

Was key invented then?



Is this a joke?

- Brian



That just reminded me of Nigel Tufnel, the way he says that to the rest of the band, "is this a joke?"

No, it's not a joke, it's a round about plea for someone to answer the first part of my question.

(Thank you Broken Face for answering the second part).

All this key talk centers around Paz. Was there / is there any key talk in regards to Mrs. Murphy?



People sing off key live all the time. That's the shortest, easiest answer. If you listen to almost any band enough live, you'll hear a sour note or two. I don't recall the conversation around Kim being "she sings off-key," if that's what you're asking.

But I suspect that people want to dislike Paz for a bunch of weird reasons, and therefore are trying to pin her as something she's not. She's probably the best pure musician that's ever been in the band. Not my favorite or the most creative or whatever, but in terms of just a solid musician, Paz is probably tops.

I'll say this: I've seen Paz with Pixies at least thrice, and I never noticed anything too amiss, vocally.

- Brian
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Bedbug
* Dog in the Sand *

1674 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  09:14:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As a non-musician, it seems to me that the key issue would be something that could be empirically demonstrated to be so, not a matter of a opinion. It's not like: "I like Kim better than Paz" or "I don't like Paz." It's "fact: Paz is not in key when she sings on track a, track b, track c, etc."

I can't really tell one way or the other, cuz, like I said, it's not really my jam. But it seems you're saying there's an agenda, but I don't think that those who are bringing up the out of key Paz topic would say they have an agenda.

There's no electronic meter that can prove this one way or the other?
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-

USA
5154 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  09:19:40  Show Profile  Visit Broken Face's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

As a non-musician, it seems to me that the key issue would be something that could be empirically demonstrated to be so, not a matter of a opinion. It's not like: "I like Kim better than Paz" or "I don't like Paz." It's "fact: Paz is not in key when she sings on track a, track b, track c, etc."

I can't really tell one way or the other, cuz, like I said, it's not really my jam. But it seems you're saying there's an agenda, but I don't think that those who are bringing up the out of key Paz topic would say they have an agenda.

There's no electronic meter that can prove this one way or the other?



I'm sure there are plenty of examples of Paz singing a note off-key. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to people harping on it, especially on the new single, especially after JohnnyRibCage illustrated that it isn't the case and that what they are hearing is intentional.

Like I said, most artists go flat or miss a note every now and then playing live. Even the all-time greats do this. But everyone talking about how persistent it is are, I think, making a bigger case than it actually is.

And, the truth of the matter is that, when you're in the venue seeing a band live, it is FAR harder to notice a bum harmony line than it is when you're sitting at home, watching it on YouTube or listening to a bootleg. I would rather the band do an amazing job for the people in the venue, leaving them satisfied, than what a bootleg shows. If Paz is able to put on a better show with a few bum notes, I'd greatly prefer that to a sterile live environment with perfect notes.

Live isn't the studio. The studio is the time (arguably) to tinker and perfect. Live should be about the vibe in the room. I think Pixies have a hard time sometimes not coming off as stiff and unmoved during live shows as it is; I wouldn't want to cut them off at the knees by making it even more of a perfunctory performance.

- Brian
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1646 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  09:35:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
But I suspect that people want to dislike Paz for a bunch of weird reasons,

Nope.

quote:
and therefore are trying to pin her as something she's not. She's probably the best pure musician that's ever been in the band.

No one here has criticized her musical skills.

quote:
Not my favorite or the most creative or whatever, but in terms of just a solid musician, Paz is probably tops.

She's a solid musician. Matter of fact.

quote:
I'll say this: I've seen Paz with Pixies at least thrice, and I never noticed anything too amiss, vocally.

Good for you.

Kim and BF vocals harmonies were very good
Shattuck and BF vocal harmonies were very good
Violet and BF vocal harmonies were very (very !) good
Paz and BF vocal harmonies are not working for me.

Sorry.
And Paz is a very good musician.

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Edited by - picpic on 06/07/2019 09:36:33
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
986 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  09:57:13  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Getting a little warm in here... someone open a window!


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-

USA
5154 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  15:07:28  Show Profile  Visit Broken Face's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, honestly. I was simply saying what I've seen lots of people say, both here and otherwise.

Makes me want to go back in the hole I crawled out of.

- Brian
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
986 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2019 :  17:08:13  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face

quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

Was key invented then?



Is this a joke?

- Brian



That just reminded me of Nigel Tufnel, the way he says that to the rest of the band, "is this a joke?"

No, it's not a joke, it's a round about plea for someone to answer the first part of my question.

(Thank you Broken Face for answering the second part).

All this key talk centers around Paz. Was there / is there any key talk in regards to Mrs. Murphy?



This is an amusing conversation, and I don't mean that in a condescending way. Seems like it's getting a little heated around here, and I'm not sure why. (Clarification Edit: heated in general, not just about this topic - we have some other convo threads threatening to jump the shark as well). It's boiling down to a weird hybrid of a musical theory discussion + taste + perception. Which is all good - it's what these kind of forums are great for. Where else can you have this kind of discussion with people across the globe at any hour of the day?

Anyway, I'll try to answer your question at face value. The concept of being 'on key' is just (in my mind) a euphemism for following standard music theory in the context of a piece and it's genre/style. Music theory is on one hand a set-in-stone mathematical concept and at the same time a man-made thing that can dictate, but also simply describe. Further - it's pointless in different applications. Try to apply western theory to eastern music. It doesn't work. Not that the Pixies are all that complex. Try to line up Pixies, Beatles, and say early 2000s King Crimson improv - it won't, can't happen. Everyone is doing their own thing to bend or obliterate the rules.

I know that sounds pedantic, but I'm not sure how else to say it. Plus I'm probably just a pedantic dude. Call a spade a spade. That said, the concept breaks down when the rules are being broken on purpose, and it also breaks down when the line is blurred by trying to align objectively off-key live performances and objectively on-key live and studio performances.

To answer your question from my own silo'd perspective - yeah, it's always been a thing - the concept of musical theory, for which "key" is just a descriptor. I never remember any big "key" discussions before. Not in regard to Kim Deal or the Pixies at large. Was Kim singing out of key sometimes, either live, in the studio, or on stage, purposefully or otherwise? You betcha. No doubt. I didn't bring it up though. It's been growing on this site but I haven't seen it anywhere else.

Why are we having this conversation now? Well, for one, Paz is definitely sticking to a script here, or at least a character description (Pixies Bassist), and she's on the record about trying to understand and learn what it means to be a Pixie and fill those shoes. In other words, she's done her homework. But she's under a microscope. Kim was just Kim. Paz is 'The Replacement,' and is being evaluated as such. Take that how you will (not you Bedbug, or anyone specifically, just whoever).

Further, we are a handful of diehard forum members on a forgotten corner of the internet's solo artist site for an artist who hasn't been a solo artist for what, like 10 years now. Hell it's so dusty it doesn't even work for long stretches of time (service unavailable). I come here specifically for these kind of chats with like-minded individuals. Or at least folks that are willing to shoot this kind of weird shit for pages on end. Where else are you going to go balls deep on a discussion like this? Certainly not facebook. Sure as shit not with an Applebee's bartender. Maybe a spouse if you are looking for a way out.

The concept of music, performance, art... it's not a zero sum game. At the end of the day it's a zen proposition for me.


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 06/07/2019 18:41:18
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Bedbug
* Dog in the Sand *

1674 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2019 :  04:30:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Johnny Ribcage and everyone for your answers and insights.

I'm about half way through Pixies Live at the Oracle 4/10/19 on the home theatre.

I gotta say, I think they sound perfect, and I think Paz sounds perfect too. In trying to listen to her specifically and see if she is off / out of key I don't detect it. Maybe it's because I have zero professional musical experience. I strum open chords on an acoustic guitar. The closest I've come to practicing is in prep for an open mic nite in front of 20 people max. So I totally respect those with more knowledge and experience who can detect things I cannot. For all I know I don't even know what key is and I've never been in key myself.

Remember that striped dress on the internet a while ago that some people saw as blue and some people saw as gold? Could there be a similar thing with notes? Because there are only so many colors right? And there are only so many notes right? So maybe your eyes and your ears receive stimulation differently? I have no idea.

I do find it interesting that in something as supposedly radical as rock music used to be considered, there are still rules to work within. Same with art I am told. Seems that the persons that put us on this earth have given us a specifically designed framework we must operate within, else we could just invent new colors and new notes.

Remember that scene where Nigel is banging loudly on his electric guitar using a violin instead of a guitar pic, and then he stops to tune the violin ever so slightly?
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Bedbug
* Dog in the Sand *

1674 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2019 :  04:49:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
By the way, if you watch the concert video, lots of examples from Paz, but just check her out on Debaser (around 45 minutes in). She kills it.

Edited by - Bedbug on 06/08/2019 04:49:57
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
986 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2019 :  05:56:20  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

By the way, if you watch the concert video, lots of examples from Paz, but just check her out on Debaser (around 45 minutes in). She kills it.



Agreed - watched it this morning with coffee. Although the version I found features either the cameraman or one of his buds on backing vocals. Do you have a link to a version that isnít enhanced with deep audience participation?


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
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stuczuba
= Cult of Ray =

304 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2019 :  06:04:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://youtu.be/O93EzFNKD5I

This is my fav clip of Paz doing her thing.

Nearly everything in 2.0 is different to 1
0 - Dave's completely changed his drumming technique, Charles sings in a completely different register (and is writing songs/melodies to suit his current voice) and Joey is playing much straighter, cleaner way. Think I've seen them with Paz 4 times, her tone is very different to Kim's - never seen her miss a note or a cue though.
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Bedbug
* Dog in the Sand *

1674 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2019 :  06:13:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage

quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

By the way, if you watch the concert video, lots of examples from Paz, but just check her out on Debaser (around 45 minutes in). She kills it.



Agreed - watched it this morning with coffee. Although the version I found features either the cameraman or one of his buds on backing vocals. Do you have a link to a version that isnít enhanced with deep audience participation?


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.



I do not. I had to tune them out. Don't listen to Gigantic from that video. It's all the cameraman.
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
986 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2019 :  06:21:02  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stuczuba

https://youtu.be/O93EzFNKD5I

This is my fav clip of Paz doing her thing.

Nearly everything in 2.0 is different to 1
0 - Dave's completely changed his drumming technique, Charles sings in a completely different register (and is writing songs/melodies to suit his current voice) and Joey is playing much straighter, cleaner way. Think I've seen them with Paz 4 times, her tone is very different to Kim's - never seen her miss a note or a cue though.



Yes, I've seen that one. She's definitely a professional musician every bit the caliber of the rest of the gang. Full disclosure here - I'm a fan. We actually named one of our daughters Paz. Not necessarily after the Pixies Paz, but that was certainly the first time I knew that was a name. Quasi named-after I guess. Or 'inspired by.' Ah hell, probably 'named after' if we get down to brass tacks.

Paz means "Peace" by the way...


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1646 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2019 :  09:28:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not angry. I just don't like her vocals. Big whoop dee doo.

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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
986 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2019 :  09:55:55  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by picpic

I'm not angry. I just don't like her vocals. Big whoop dee doo.

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I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
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Bedbug
* Dog in the Sand *

1674 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2019 :  05:50:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LD to the rescue
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1646 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2019 :  09:39:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wake me up when the podcast is online.



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