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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
 Posted - 06/03/2004 : 18:34:45
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if you'e talking about personal taste, that's one thing. but as far as the widely accepted, academic canon of 20th Century Literature goes, there are quite a few people and novels generally considered more important than Celine and JOURNEY TO THE END OF THE NIGHT. in my experience.
i don't think many Lit professors would put Celine above James Joyce or Franz Kafka.. even for Frenchies, wouldn't Camus and Sarte be considered more important than Celine? |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2004 : 21:19:37
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Careful Floop..we might start to look up to you if you spill any more of that intellect into the Forum. =P
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2004 : 21:36:59
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hey, i have a bachelors degree in Modern Literature. let me pretend to be smart for this moment..
i promise to continue on with threads about frozen pizza, and my laundry, and the pros and cons of bi-fold wallets. but please, let me have this moment... |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 01:55:12
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Well, Sartre was especially a great philosopher, and not such a good writer - I don't like his books very much. His novels were overrated because he was one of the existentialists - and there was all that hype about them at the time, they described the concerns of the post-war generation etc (hanging around Saint-Germain-Des-Pres and listening to jazz with beautiful women). However, Camus was also an existentialist yet I think he was a good writer, much better than Sartre imo.
Proust and Céline have not been treated by the critics as well as Camus and Sartre, yet today an increasing number of writers consider them as their major influences, often much more than Sartre abd Camus.
For Céline, the reason is obvious. His political opinions were very very scary : in the 30s he published two very violent anti-semitic pamphlets (a bad translation of the titles in English would be "The school of dead bodies" and "A fortune for a massacre"). And he more or less collaborated with the Germans during the occupation. After the liberation, he had to escape to Danemark where he stayed in prison for a couple of years, because in France, he would have been killed. There are no traces of these opinions in the "Journey", yet even today, discussing Céline in France is very touchy. That is why Céline is not very likely to be accepted in the "academic canons".
But he was a great writer. Of course, I agree with you on Joyce or Kafka, but it just cannot be compared. The language, the music used by Céline (the popular "parler"), is just amazing and is probably lost in translation. The way he described human weaknesses has deeply influenced singers like Jacques Brel. And he was a major influence for one of my favorite American authors, William Burroughs. It's the first book where war wasn't decribed as heroic.
I keep feeling like people are just looking at screens and web sites all the time, but do they ever do anything? Or go out and say anything to anyone? I'm not so sure anymore. |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 06:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Adnan_le_Terrible
The fact that he writes good novels doesn't mean he cannot make stupid declarations.
Agreed. Just defending the man's sanity and making sure everyone knows he's not senile. Plus, spreading the word at how productive the man is at 84. I know I personally always like to hear about those rare cases where people reach a certain age and don't just give, trading their life for television. It's altogether rare. Ya know? |
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JamesM
= Cult of Ray =
308 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 10:12:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Adnan_le_Terrible
Well, Sartre was especially a great philosopher, and not such a good writer - I don't like his books very much. His novels were overrated because he was one of the existentialists - and there was all that hype about them at the time, they described the concerns of the post-war generation etc (hanging around Saint-Germain-Des-Pres and listening to jazz with beautiful women). However, Camus was also an existentialist yet I think he was a good writer, much better than Sartre imo.
Proust and Céline have not been treated by the critics as well as Camus and Sartre, yet today an increasing number of writers consider them as their major influences, often much more than Sartre abd Camus.
For Céline, the reason is obvious. His political opinions were very very scary : in the 30s he published two very violent anti-semitic pamphlets (a bad translation of the titles in English would be "The school of dead bodies" and "A fortune for a massacre"). And he more or less collaborated with the Germans during the occupation. After the liberation, he had to escape to Danemark where he stayed in prison for a couple of years, because in France, he would have been killed. There are no traces of these opinions in the "Journey", yet even today, discussing Céline in France is very touchy. That is why Céline is not very likely to be accepted in the "academic canons".
But he was a great writer. Of course, I agree with you on Joyce or Kafka, but it just cannot be compared. The language, the music used by Céline (the popular "parler"), is just amazing and is probably lost in translation. The way he described human weaknesses has deeply influenced singers like Jacques Brel. And he was a major influence for one of my favorite American authors, William Burroughs. It's the first book where war wasn't decribed as heroic.
I keep feeling like people are just looking at screens and web sites all the time, but do they ever do anything? Or go out and say anything to anyone? I'm not so sure anymore.
Alright, sorry, I'm a philosophy major so you'll have to sit through with me on this one. Sartre's fiction is a bit overtly didactic and a little precious, but I still think it's pretty good -- not so much for the literary content, but for the existentialist themes he brings to the work. His nonfiction, his philosophy, is simultaneously pretty darn good and pretty darn bad. If I can blame Sartre for one thing, it's writing too goddamn much. His ontology is laughable, but he's an ethicist par excellence; second only to Levinas.
You French folks stew up some great philosophy, second only to the Germans! The Brits and us Americans are partial to analytic philosophy, which is akin to this little polemic -- an analytic would describe how someone dreams, a continental philosopher would describe any sense contents, relevant and irrelevant meanings pertinent to the dream, and so forth. Analytic philosophy is overtly boring.
-Jimmy M. |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 10:27:55
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| what made me angry about the bradbury "article" was that the writer gave "his translation" of bradbury's words. You can't always believe what you read, and in this case all you can really hanestly take away from the article is "bradbury wasn't pleased with the title of moore's movie." all else is heresay. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 11:14:24
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| i only brought up Sarte and Camus as examples of other French writers who, generally, are considered more important than Celine, just in France alone (for their fiction as well as thier philosophical writings). worldwide, that's a different story. i understand your argument that he might have been shunned in literary circles for being racist, but there are plenty of talented artists with questionable ethics whose work is still celebrated, academically and otherwise. i'm not saying i think he's a bad writer, or doesn't deserve his due. i just think that saying JOURNEY is "clearly" better than anything else in 20th Century literature might be stretching it. |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 11:29:45
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| What about Guy De Maupassant (forgive the spelling) ? Never read him myself, but as he's one of Mr. Bradbury's favorite writers I thought it would be appropriate. Anyone read that Guy? |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 12:13:52
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Floop, I've never said that Céline's JOURNEY is THE best book of the 20th century, you cannot say something like that as it is impossible to compare Céline to Kafka etc, they have their own worlds...but he certainly isn't a minor writer, I really consider him as a genius, his work paved the way for many other authors.
True, there are many artists who have supported the nazis - Ezra Pound was very close to Mussolini etc. But the main thing that prevents Céline from being more recognized worldwide is the fact that his litterature is all about a certain style, his language etc. It cannot be translated.
James, I've been studying Philosophy and Maths for two years (and liked it a lot) before I switched to Business Administration, and although I love some of the French philosophers, like Henri Bergson, I truly think that Germans are way better. Sartre, whose philosophy might be interesting sometimes (you put it very well), was clearly inspired by Hüsserl. What I really hated/liked about Sartre was his support of the communists - it was really ridiculous but it showed his integrity at the same time (like his refusal of the Nobel prize).
However, one of my professors here was Christian Jambet, a pupil of another great philosopher called Henry Corbin, the first French to translate and study Heidegger. We had this course about Poetry aand Imagination - one of the best courses I've ever had. Later, I tried to read some of the Jambet's books - he wrote a lot of stuff, but he is now specialized in Iranian philosophy - but it was too much for my small brain, he kept speaking in Greek, Persian, Latin or German all the time.
Bartholomew, Maupassant is a 19th century writer, pupil of Flaubert and famous for his short stories (short stories are not as popular in France as they are in American litterature), which is probably why Bradbury likes him. One of his most famous novels is BEL AMI, about a guy who seduces rich and married women and makes it to the top. He is considered as a "naturaliste", along with Zola, for example. He also wrote some fantastic (not fantastic like very good, but like....fantastic) short stories, as his developing syphilis affected his mental health - some really crazy stories.
I keep feeling like people are just looking at screens and web sites all the time, but do they ever do anything? Or go out and say anything to anyone? I'm not so sure anymore. |
Edited by - Adnan_le_Terrible on 06/04/2004 12:16:04 |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 12:29:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Adnan_le_Terrible
Bartholomew, Maupassant is a 19th century writer, pupil of Flaubert and famous for his short stories (short stories are not as popular in France as they are in American litterature), which is probably why Bradbury likes him. One of his most famous novels is BEL AMI, about a guy who seduces rich and married women and makes it to the top. He is considered as a "naturaliste", along with Zola, for example. He also wrote some fantastic (not fantastic like very good, but like....fantastic) short stories, as his developing syphilis affected his mental health - some really crazy stories.
So there IS a plus side to syphilis.
Forgot philosophy for a second. As far as french fiction writers who would you recommend? Who, in your opinion, are the all time greats? |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 12:34:21
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Impossible to answer that. Céline is one of my favorites, but I also like Proust (if you have enough time to read about 2 000 pages). Currently, Houellebecq is popular but I don't like him very much.
Lautréamont is also very good. And I do like Maupassant.
I keep feeling like people are just looking at screens and web sites all the time, but do they ever do anything? Or go out and say anything to anyone? I'm not so sure anymore. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 13:37:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Adnan_le_Terrible
Floop, I've never said that Céline's JOURNEY is THE best book of the 20th century, you cannot say something like that as it is impossible to compare Céline to Kafka etc, they have their own worlds...but he certainly isn't a minor writer, I really consider him as a genius, his work paved the way for many other authors.
when you said this, it made it sound like you were saying that:
"In French litterature, there are clearly two novels that can be pointed out as higly above evrything else in the 20th century :
- Journey to the end of the night (Céline)
- Remembrance of things past (Marcel Proust - I think this is the English translation of "A la recherche du temps perdu")."
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 13:39:31
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everything else IN THE FRENCH LITTERATURE.
Pardon my English.
I keep feeling like people are just looking at screens and web sites all the time, but do they ever do anything? Or go out and say anything to anyone? I'm not so sure anymore. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 13:50:51
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| we can still be friends |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 16:43:45
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Rep. Kennedy pans Michael Moore film editing
Kevin Diaz
Bureau Correspondent
Minneapolis Star Tribune
Published June 4, 2004
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Rep. Mark Kennedy has unhappy memories of his filmed encounter with leftist moviemaker Michael Moore, an encounter featured Thursday in a trailer for the upcoming U.S. release of the film "Fahrenheit 9/11."
"I was walking back to my office after casting a vote, and all of a sudden some oversized guy puts a mike in my face and a camera in my face," said the Minnesota Republican. "He starts asking if I can help him recruit more people from families of members of Congress to participate in the war on terror."
Kennedy said he told Moore that he has two nephews in the military, one who has just been deployed in the Army National Guard.
But to Kennedy's annoyance, his response to Moore was cut from the trailer (and from the film, according to a spokeswoman for the movie).
"The interesting thing is that they used my image, but not my words," Kennedy said. "It's representative of the fact that Michael Moore doesn't always give the whole story, and he's a master of the misleading."
A spokeswoman for the film, which has found a U.S. distributor after the Walt Disney Co. refused to release it, said she had no comment.
A transcript released by the film's producers shows Moore telling Kennedy that "there is only one member [of Congress] who has a kid over there in Iraq." He asks Kennedy to help him pass out literature encouraging others "to get their kids to enlist in the Army and go over to Iraq."
Kennedy replies, "I'd be happy to. Especially those who voted for the war. [As Kennedy did.] I have a nephew on his way to Afghanistan."
To which Moore replies: "I appreciate it."
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 20:58:41
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| I totally agree with Bradbury here and think that Michael Moore is a horrible human for parody-ing a title without asking for permission. |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 21:18:59
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Hmm...about Celine being a "genius"...I think that anyone that's racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. isn't too smart. If they were the geniuses we consider them they'd be smart enough to figure out that their views of the world only hurt other people and do it no good. I don't know, that's just my view on it. They can be bright and clever, but not a genius. You can maybe say that he had a streak of brilliance, genius even, for the writing of Journey to the End of the Earth...but to call him a genius just because of that..hmm..I dunno, I don't know enough about him to really come to a conclusion. Nevermind.
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 22:17:52
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You cannot deny a guy like Bobby Fischer was a genius : one of the best (perhaps THE best) chess players ever, an IQ over 180. Yet he continously makes antisemitic declarations (although he is Jewish). Nash, who developped the game theory (after Morgenstern and von Neuman); was a true genius yet suffered from severe schizophrenia. Heidegger supported the Nazis. I thonk you can excel in something and be a total idiot in something else.
I keep feeling like people are just looking at screens and web sites all the time, but do they ever do anything? Or go out and say anything to anyone? I'm not so sure anymore. |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 22:34:05
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I forget what IQ you have to have to be considered a "techinical genius"....Must...Find....Hmm..I can't find it anywhere. I know for a fact that a person with an IQ of over 130 is considered "Gifted". (I guess the gifted program taught me something, after all..hmm...no, guess not.) Stupid Mensa...
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 23:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Rep. Kennedy pans Michael Moore film editing
Kevin Diaz
Bureau Correspondent
Minneapolis Star Tribune
Published June 4, 2004
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Rep. Mark Kennedy has unhappy memories of his filmed encounter with leftist moviemaker Michael Moore, an encounter featured Thursday in a trailer for the upcoming U.S. release of the film "Fahrenheit 9/11."
"I was walking back to my office after casting a vote, and all of a sudden some oversized guy puts a mike in my face and a camera in my face," said the Minnesota Republican. "He starts asking if I can help him recruit more people from families of members of Congress to participate in the war on terror."
Kennedy said he told Moore that he has two nephews in the military, one who has just been deployed in the Army National Guard.
But to Kennedy's annoyance, his response to Moore was cut from the trailer (and from the film, according to a spokeswoman for the movie).
"The interesting thing is that they used my image, but not my words," Kennedy said. "It's representative of the fact that Michael Moore doesn't always give the whole story, and he's a master of the misleading."
A spokeswoman for the film, which has found a U.S. distributor after the Walt Disney Co. refused to release it, said she had no comment.
A transcript released by the film's producers shows Moore telling Kennedy that "there is only one member [of Congress] who has a kid over there in Iraq." He asks Kennedy to help him pass out literature encouraging others "to get their kids to enlist in the Army and go over to Iraq."
Kennedy replies, "I'd be happy to. Especially those who voted for the war. [As Kennedy did.] I have a nephew on his way to Afghanistan."
To which Moore replies: "I appreciate it."
Exactly what I dislike about the guy. I mean, if you have some enlightening news to lay on us feel free, but if you have to use cheeseball tactics to make people look bad, please spare us. Most of the people that see his films, or read his books are intelligent enough to see through his methods and get turned off.
I'll still see the movie though.
------------------------------------
Confucious say - The philosophy of one century is the common sense of the next.
He also say my lucky numbers are: 16 27 36 23 11
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2004 : 08:01:40
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To get back offtopic, my favourite French writer is Rabelais, I think we still have a lot to learn from him.
-Owen |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2004 : 11:18:30
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| I admire Michael Moore's spirit and his balls (you oughta see em, they're big and really really hairy). As a working stiff sort of dude I appreciate his Roger and Me movie and the next one after that. But I think since then his head has swelled a bit and anymore his agenda seems to be stirring the shit for no particular reason other than he enjoys to stir. Maybe he should get a job as a baker. Or a concrete mixer. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2004 : 16:34:39
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Camus can do, but Sartre is smartre!
For what it's worth, I don't think Moore parodying Bradbury's title is a big deal, but if it's true that he said he'd consult with Bradbury about it and then didn't, that's pretty jerky.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2004 : 17:53:52
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Michael Moore: what he is trying to say (too many firearms, information manipulation etc) is OK, but the way he tries to "prove" it sucks.
Ray Bradbury : what he is trying to say (Michael Moore is an asshole) is OK, but when he tries to prove it ("he stole my title"), it sucks.
And though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable... I simply am not there. |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2004 : 19:19:38
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
For what it's worth, I don't think Moore parodying Bradbury's title is a big deal, but if it's true that he said he'd consult with Bradbury about it and then didn't, that's pretty jerky.
Thanks for mentioning that, VoVat. I'm glad someone agrees that it IS jerky.
"Raving Lunatic"? More like "Awesome human being who meritoriously and appropriately refuses to tolerate the disrespect", if you ask me. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2004 : 23:25:32
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I think Adnan summed it up pretty well, personally.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2004 : 20:52:03
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| I'm just a poor druggie who works in a factory-I get sick when I hear Michael Moore say he's a represenative for "working people". His big problem isn't just that he distorts the truth, it's that his ideas are all wrong. He makes a big deal out out of downsizing and companies moving jobs overseas. If my company wanted to fire me and give my job to a 12 year old in Mexico that's their right and I'd support them all the way. He's just another person who claims that people have a "right" to a job. Aside from being completely wrong about everything he is complete white trash and proud of it. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2004 : 05:20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by IceCream
I totally agree with Bradbury here and think that Michael Moore is a horrible human for parody-ing a title without asking for permission.
Uh, when did you ever have to ASK the target or source of parody or satire for permission? It will be a sad day if/when that becomes law. (Could you see George Bush actually consenting to be parodied on SNL?) Actually, it will be very Orwellian (or even Bradbury-esque) a day at that. Now THAT's irony, Alanis.
Reference, satire and parody are exempt from US (and most foreign) copyright/trademark laws, for jsut this reason. If this ever came to court, Moore could (probably successfully) argue that his title was meant to evoke "Farenheit 451" and give his film the underlying chilling effect. I like both artists; I think Bradbury's being a pill here.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!" |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 22:33:59
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Blackpurse, interesting point. I know that about 95% of people are going to think Bradbury when they hear that title, and therefore it seems as though Moore's cashing in on Bradbury's hard work-induced title. It wouldn't kill Moore to show some respect.
But George Bush being parodied on SNL...I don't know; is that a different story? |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 22:38:40
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And also: Bradbuy's 84? He doesn't look a day past 81... |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 17:58:35
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| Bradbury is just embarassing himself. next thing you know he's going to be asking for an apology for every book or movie that has the word "martian" in it. |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 19:12:15
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
Bradbury is just embarassing himself. next thing you know he's going to be asking for an apology for every book or movie that has the word "martian" in it.
Ray should demand an apology from Elvis Costello and Drew Carey for wearing coke-bottle glasses without his permission. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 19:33:47
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What about from Frank for making The Cult of Ray without permission? Never mind that it's positive!
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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Topic |
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Ray Bradbury: "Michael Moore is an asshole"
