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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2004 : 01:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by martha_promise
Dave,
Not to be a dick, but I think you're way off base with attempting to empathize with these people and implying that it's a world wide attitude against the United States of America.
Abeit, animalistic behavior such as this, is slowly being exterminated from Western Civilization, Not that we've haven't had our share (slavery, trail of tears, columbus, spainsih inquisition, ect. x10000) Most of the world has evolved into some semblance of rational thought. (you're all for love and peace right?) Some cultures are just a little slow on the up-take. The world needs this region stabilized.I think it's intellectually dishonest of you to polliticize the events in Fallujah with anti-American rhetoric.
I like your examples : Columbus, Inquisition... For sure, it's over since centuries.
Today we have this rational thought. We can rationnally exterminate 6 million people here in Europe, using rational, industrial methods. No animalistic behaviour. The holocaust was 50 years ago. Not so far. I know some people who were in Auschwitz.
I agree the Middle East needs change. But do you think you can stabilize a region by attacking it? I think it's pretty much the opposite that will happen.
I'm sorry, but I'm highly pessimistic about everything that's going on these days.
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martha_promise
= Cult of Ray =
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 01:46:48
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"The world needs this region stabilized"
[quote]Originally posted by mattb
I'm sorry but I laughed when I read this. Again the ignorance shines through like fucking crazy. What needs to be stabilized?
No, you're dead right. The world needs more people dragged through the streets, mutilated, and hung from a bridge. Good point. No need to stabalize anything here.
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~ |
Edited by - martha_promise on 04/03/2004 01:48:56 |
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mattb
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
474 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 07:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by jimmy
mattb, I'm glad that you liked my post so much that you wanted to finish my sentences and complete my thoughts- thank you, but I said all the things I wanted to say.
I appreciate your interest but what I was hoping for was an exchange of arguments.
I've been reading and re-reading your posts and they seem incomplete. For example, if someone says something you disagree with, I don't think it's enough to say that they're ignorant and haven't done enough "research".
And my post was filled with a lot of strong opinions that were just begging to be argued with. When you answer with "LMAO", it suggests the lack of an argument. If you disagree with any of the things I said, please give your arguement.
Honestly, I don't really feel like giving history lessons to prove my point. But ok if you want a discusion here goes:
"The root cause of all the world's problems with killing and terrorism is the people who are religious and take religion seriously. And those people are dangerous in direct proportion to how religious they are. When there are a bunch of people who are devoted to some supernatural belief system, what solution can there ever be when there's a conflict with some other belief system?"
This conflict has nothing to do with religion except that just like the U.S. constantly states they also think that God is on their side. These people are pissed off as hell. They have been screwed by western countries over the last 100 years and they continue to get screwed. It's a cliche thing to say but the U.S. is only there because of oil. This ridiculous claim of having weapons of mass destruction is so moronic I can't believe that anyone believes it. This is a country that has been under sanctions for over 10 years. They didn't have enough money to maintain their infrastructure let alone fund weapons programs. You're clearly not aware of this or you wouldn't have made these comments but the previous Iraqi government was actually the most seperated from the church out of all the countries in the middle east. In fact, this new constitution that they are passing and the lack of adequate policing is finally bringing religious nut cases out of hiding in Iraq. People who own liquor stores or sell western movies are getting death threats and woman for the first time in a very long time in Iraq can't walk down the street by themselves. And yes in case you didn't know they were allowed to do that before. If your equation of degree of religious belief to level of violence is correct then every other country in the middle east should be bombing the hell out of us and be a much bigger threat than Iraq was. If you do think that it has to do with religion, then what is the motivation? That we have a different religion thatn they do? Then that would make practically every country on the planet a target as well.
"Most of the Middle east is filled with completely backwards people and if they weren't sitting on all that oil their own fucked-up way of life would have ended them years ago."
Have you been to the middle east to prove this? Have you even seen seen pictures of Iraq to prove this? People living there have jobs and live in buildings in case you weren't aware. They are educated (because higher education was FREE in Iraq) and they are doctors, lawyers and engineers and live pretty much the same way that we do. Look at all the things the Americans bombed, do you think that they prayed to Allah and these things just magically appeared? How rascist can you be to say they have a fucked up way of life. The American media will have you believe that ever person there is a trained terrorist waiting to strike so we better get them before they get us. It amazes me how some people think that a person living on the other side of the world is not a human being. These people react to things the same way that you would. What makes you angry? I'm sure starving for the last ten years would do it and the country who caused it would be at fault, wouldn't it?. How would you react when you country is being bombed and your friends and family are being killed and losing limbs? You lost your house, you have even less than you had before and these assholes who bombed are now saying hey, let's be friends. It's like gettign raped and then the rapist asking if you can just cuddle for a while. The Americans are fucking up the Iraqi economy so much more know it's unbelieveable. They make you believe (which you have) that it's a helpless country that needs outside contractors and help to rebuild. Whay can't they just use companies in Iraq who originally built these things to rebuild them? A recent example of this was reported how a bridge in Iraq needed to be rebuilt and in the spirit of "fairness" Iraqi companies were allowed ot place bids for the contract. The orginal company that rebuilt the bridge after the first Iraq war placed a bit that for what they could do it. They didn't get the contract and the guy who owned the company contacted the people responsible for the bids and asked what the company who won the bid was doing it for. The company that won was Haliburton and their bid was over ten times that which the Iraqi company bid. there is no logic in that except that every thing is being done to increase American profits from this.
"I'd love to see America isolate itself (stop all the "peace-keeping" operations, stop all the foreign aid to other countries), and then have all the different counties do their own thing and see how things turn out."
Like I said earlier I would love to see that too. And like I said earlier I want them to stop influencing other countries politics first. They have to stop their support of oppressive governments everywhere. Toppling Saddam in Iraq was just gettign rid of the person they helped and supported years before at a time when he actually did have the power and used it to cause shit. Of course he wouldn't have accomplished anything if it wasn't for the U.S. Their idea of help is ridiculous, like after the first Iraqi war when Bush senior pleaded the Iraqi people to help the U.S. rise up against Saddam because it's the only way they will get free. They did and the U.S. did absolutely nothing except sit back and watch as they all got slaughtered. The reason the U.S. didn't help is simple, the majority of the people who were rebeling in Iraq was part of a gropu of Muslims who were at odds with the leaders of the Saudi government. Since Saudi Arabia (who was then our ally but now our enemey, even though none of their brutal policies have changed and they government has remained the same, but that, another story) was against it and the U.S. wanted to keep their bases their and keep them happy nothing was done. So much for Americans loving freedom eh?
"America isn't perfect, but it has the right basic idea. All it needs to do to fix itself is to get back to its original idea- get rid of all the hand-out programs (welfare, medicare, medicaid, Social Security, National Endowment for the Arts) and let people make their own choices and live with the results."
I don't want to open another can of worms so all I'll say is that a government has a certain amount of responsibility for social conditions in their country. Especially when they are responsible for most of the social problems.
"(There are still religious people in America, but they don't really take it seriously. Even our most strict religious people are just phoning it in- here Catholic priests have scored with more boys than NAMBLA and most of the parishiners hardly care.)"
The U.S. like Iraq is extremely varied region by region. Any country you go to will have the same amount of fantics, no more, no less. I think it's extremely unfair to say that everyone in a country is the same way just because a certain group of people are like that.
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mattb
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
474 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 09:08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by martha_promise
"The world needs this region stabilized"
[quote]Originally posted by mattb
I'm sorry but I laughed when I read this. Again the ignorance shines through like fucking crazy. What needs to be stabilized?
No, you're dead right. The world needs more people dragged through the streets, mutilated, and hung from a bridge. Good point. No need to stabalize anything here.
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~
Your point seems to be that every single person in the middle east is like this and it's so barbaric we have to step in. Can you first of all grasp the concept that there are millions of people in Iraq and that taking an incident such as this and implying every single person there is just like this is not accurate? With that mentality anyone who saw the Rodney King riots that happened in LA can imply that the entire country is pissed off and the American justice system is not the will of the people so other countries must step in to stop it. I doubt dragging people through the street like that is a daily occurence there otherwise American media would pounce on it and push the point home how "barbaric" these people are. You can't make judgement calls on what these people did without understanding the climate and the conditions that people have to live there under.
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http://www.geocities.com/kittridge1/ |
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mattb
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
474 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 09:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
quote:
originally posted by mattb
LMAO, they're fucked all right, fighting for their freedom, prosperity and stuff while we want to hoard everything. Fuck those assholes! You know what's the most stupid about them, how they don't buy their own weapons to bomb us like we bomb them. Losers, they have to make home made bombs or hijack planes, can't they do the civilized thing like use missles.
Or maybe they could use children as human shields. Oh wait, they already do that.
Again, it amazes me how incidents by individuals are taken as a standard for an entire group of people. Theses examples are the most ridiculous cases of profiling that I have ever heard. I heard this American guy got murdered by someone, I guess all Americans are murderers. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
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http://www.geocities.com/kittridge1/ |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 09:45:04
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Mattb, thanks for writing back. Just like I thought, we're in agreement on a lot of things.
First, though, I have to say: my post was not about the Iraq/US war but religious fanatics in general ( though I can see where my wording could be read the other way). That's a situation I never even argue about, since I see both sides as being wrong in so many ways (I wish it was just over- the soldiers should go home, no "re-building").
Secondly, I don't think it's racist to say that certain people have a fucked-up way of life. Racism is saying that racial groups are a certain way because they were born that way and that all members of the racial group are the same. There is nothing racist in saying that the culture and customs of certain racial groups are wrong. I'm criticizing cultures that value religion, and saying that the more devoted they are, the worse they are.
I think there are a lot of people who see America as a country of godless pornographers who want to corrupt the rest of the world with our money-worship and Madonna videos. And that's fine if they don't like our culture. The problem is when, because of their religious beliefs, they think it is their duty to kill us for it. |
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mattb
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
474 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 10:18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by jimmy
Mattb, thanks for writing back. Just like I thought, we're in agreement on a lot of things.
First, though, I have to say: my post was not about the Iraq/US war but religious fanatics in general ( though I can see where my wording could be read the other way). That's a situation I never even argue about, since I see both sides as being wrong in so many ways (I wish it was just over- the soldiers should go home, no "re-building").
Secondly, I don't think it's racist to say that certain people have a fucked-up way of life. Racism is saying that racial groups are a certain way because they were born that way and that all members of the racial group are the same. There is nothing racist in saying that the culture and customs of certain racial groups are wrong. I'm criticizing cultures that value religion, and saying that the more devoted they are, the worse they are.
I think there are a lot of people who see America as a country of godless pornographers who want to corrupt the rest of the world with our money-worship and Madonna videos. And that's fine if they don't like our culture. The problem is when, because of their religious beliefs, they think it is their duty to kill us for it.
Holy shit.... I don't know what to say, I can't believe you just wrote that. Here is a link to the definition of racism so you can be clear what it means:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism
Seriously, do you know anyone who's Muslim? Have you ever had a conversation with anyone who's Muslim? Do you realize that they have varied personalities and values just like christians do?
And for the last fucking time the people who do want to kill us are not trying to kill us for our religious beliefs. Our religious differences are just adding fuel to the fire. We have wronged many of these people. They want revenge and justice which is exactly what anyone of us would want if the tables were reversed.
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http://www.geocities.com/kittridge1/ |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 10:20:20
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Mattb, your post above is one of the most disgusting things I've read in a long time: "You can't make judgement calls on what these people did without understanding the climate and conditions that people have to live under there."
There are two justifications for killing another human being:
1) Self-defence against a person who has initiated force against you.
2) Punishment for a violent crime that a person has committed against another person (And I know there are people who disagree with this point).
Please tell me exactly what the victims did to their killers that they deserved what happened to them. Please explain why the killers are beyond anyone's "judgement calls" after they murdered four complete strangers. |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 10:55:28
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Mattb, I don't see why you linked to a definition of "racism" that is nearly identical to my definition, and then say that I need a clearer idea of the meaning. To say that people are a certain way because they belong to a racial group is racist- to criticize a racial group's chosen culture is not racist. It wouldn't be racist to criticize the culture and society of Germany in the 1930s & 40s.
Your style of arguement gets clearer with every post. It's very easy to dismiss the things I say by asking if I've ever talked to any Muslims. Or you say things like: Well, if that's your opinion then you must be ignorant of the sanctions imposed on Iraq. If you think someone is wrong, all you have to do is give your opinion- it's not enough to give definition links, or say, "You have never talked to a Muslim- therefore your opinion is automatically wrong." |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 11:19:35
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I've been thinking, and I have to say: I have many extreme opinions and of all the people I've talked to I don't know one person who agrees with even half of my views. Still, in all the arguements I've had, we can always find some common ground; I think a lot of people agree on the results they'd like to see but have different ideas about how to get there. Still, there are times when the difference of opinion is too great to get past and this is one of those times.
I can't argue with someone who says about the killings in Falluja, "You can't make judgement calls on what these people did without understanding the climate and the conditions that people live under there".
I've said what I wanted to say and I'm done. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 12:07:23
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I'll apologize in advance if i haven't been clear:
I am empathizing with these people. That is not the same as 'justifying'.
Just as i may try to empathize with someone who committed a crime.
I am not justifying them. I am not saying what they did was 'right' in any form.
What i am saying is that i am trying to understand where this person is coming from. Perhaps they've had a string of horrible events in their life, and this has influenced them to lash out (in a horrible way.)
And perhaps by understanding why this person is acting this way (abused as a child, for example) we can actually FIGURE OUT WHY IT HAPPENED. And more importantly: PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.
This isn't Star Wars, and you won't be 'sucked into the Dark Side' by trying to empathize with someone. (As a matter of fact, i think that's what helped Luke help his father. Sorry if i'm spoiling the movie for anyone. ;)
So one more time now:
I can see why these people are so upset, so OUTRAGED that they would be driven to this type of behaviour.
It's horrible that they'd do this to dead bodies. But it's also horrible that they've been driven to the point where they'd want to do this.
They are not 'maddened religious fanatics' - unlike, as Mattb has pointed out, many would believe.
They are much like you and me.
Except that their country has been bombed, and it was based on utter LIES.
(It's also important to point out and recognize that these people didn't kill the US citizens, and probably wouldn't have gone that far.)
I hope i have made myself clear.
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 18:35:30
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| discussing this with you is impossible, i'm sorry but you just aren't nearly informed enough or even thinking about the situation properly. i'll avoid even trying to do so in the future. |
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mattb
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
474 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 19:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by jimmy
Mattb, I don't see why you linked to a definition of "racism" that is nearly identical to my definition, and then say that I need a clearer idea of the meaning. To say that people are a certain way because they belong to a racial group is racist- to criticize a racial group's chosen culture is not racist. It wouldn't be racist to criticize the culture and society of Germany in the 1930s & 40s.
Your style of arguement gets clearer with every post. It's very easy to dismiss the things I say by asking if I've ever talked to any Muslims. Or you say things like: Well, if that's your opinion then you must be ignorant of the sanctions imposed on Iraq. If you think someone is wrong, all you have to do is give your opinion- it's not enough to give definition links, or say, "You have never talked to a Muslim- therefore your opinion is automatically wrong."
First off, yes it would be racist to criticize the the culture and society of German in the 30's and 40's. What would not be racist is to say that there was a group of people in Germany that had fucked up ideas. If you generalize an entire race of people based on what some of the individuals in that race are doing is exactly what racism is. Case in point when we discuss Germany during that time we refer to Nazis and not Germans because labeling every German during that time as having the same beliefs as nazis is not accurate. You can not make general statements about the entire middle east as saying they are all religious fanatics just as you can not say that every person in the United States thinks the same way. Do you understand what I mean? If you attach a label, any kind of label, that is profiling which when referring to a race is called racism.
I can understand how you can critisize my style of arguement when I was laughing at your arguementes but you can not say that after I posted a proper rebuttal to your points. In fact, you're the one who has dismissed everything I said. I gave arguements to refute every one of your points while you took the easiest points to say mundane comments about and ignored the rest. Opinions are pointless in discussions such as this, what is important, and proves your case is facts, frankly you have not provided any. You've stated what you think numerous times but gave no reasoning behind it besides generalized statements like they're religious fanatics. My comment about you never having talked to anyone Muslim was trying to prove my point that you don't have much basis in fact with your arguements, it's clearly just your perceptions that are the basis of your arguements.
Dave noisy has clearly explained my thoughts regarding why I made the comments about not being able to judge so I don't really want to rehash the same things that he has said. But like he said, empathy for why that action was done is much different than agreeing that it was the the best course of action to take.
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 22:16:36
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Thanks Matt. =)
Ebb - not sure how to respond when you don't give any specifics..but perhaps that's for the better..? heh
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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Shrimp Scampi
- FB Fan -
4 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2004 : 22:45:00
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Dave Noisy Make Some Noise! You the man!
Mattb is also cool! Ebb + everyone else = losers |
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martha_promise
= Cult of Ray =
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 02:11:44
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My God. The shrimp song kicks ass. I think everyone here has a better grasp on the situation than a lot of people. It would be fun to hash it out sober in a non cyber-space venue.
I think everyone's right. yeah,...
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~ |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 04:03:22
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quote:
Originally posted by martha_promise
"The world needs this region stabilized"
[quote]Originally posted by mattb
I'm sorry but I laughed when I read this. Again the ignorance shines through like fucking crazy. What needs to be stabilized?
No, you're dead right. The world needs more people dragged through the streets, mutilated, and hung from a bridge. Good point. No need to stabalize anything here.
~~Polly-ann drove steel like a man~~
Well, these pictures from Irak were horrible, like any other pictures from war. It just shows you how men can become wild in no matter of time. I don't think it's a geographical separation, it exists everywhere and in everyone. The behaviour of some American soldiers in the war was not much better (like in Vietnam, for instance). And some racial crimes in the US (against Blacks, for example) were at least that violent. I'm not blaming the US, this exists everywhere.
Don't get me wrong, I do think the Middle East needs change. But atrocities are not, unfortunately, a monopoly of that region.
The problem is, when some people get killed, it's more serious when it happens to others. Don't get me wrong, I did feel concerned with 9/11 but if you take the slaughter in Rwanda, for instance, 600 000 civilians were killed in 6 months, and noone reacted that much, only because they're black Africans. At one point, I remember a Canadian general who was there protesting and saying that people in the West probably feel more concerned with an endangered animal species like pandas than with these human beings.
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 13:54:40
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I learnt something today.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
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WARNING! EXTREMELY GRAPHIC!
