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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6304 Posts |
 Posted - 09/04/2025 : 00:56:14
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Primrose, Chicken, Motoroller, Jane, Oyster beds are fantastic.
I will die on that hill
Not sure if they should be compared to Gouge Away or Velouria.
They are just songs, in the end.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3291 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 03:58:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Would you choose to live in an alternate reality where the last Pixies thing ever done was TLM and they never did reunion stuff?
I imagine that their myth / legacy would be off the charts in that universe
Yep. Bingo.
I wish Frank was primarily solo (even with Santiago still playing with him like he used to on his solo work) but still did some Pixies shows now and again. Maybe a single here and there. I don't think these new albums, even when I like some songs on them, are doing their legacy any favors.
And even about the songs I do like: I'd still like them MORE without Dalgety's production choices, I bet. So if there were Frank solo songs I feel like something special may come out of them.
You might be surprised, but that would be my choice too.
My cognitive dissonance allows me to think of 2.0 as something other than the Pixies, but yet somehow the Pixies, and still enjoy it all.
I wish people would not have pressured Frank to regroup. I'm not saying that he said that's what happened.
The best 21st century Pixies performance will never be as good as the worst 20th century Pixies performance. The best 2.0 song will never be as good as the worst 1.0 song.
If the beautiful corpse could have stayed there, and a nice missive be sent out to everyone in 2004, "listen, we know that you'd like us to get back together, but trust me you'll be happier we don't," and then he just jams with whoever as Shwarma and all those 2.0 songs just get done with whoever and he tours as whatever, that would be a better universe to that degree.
But this one is not that bad, but yes worse than the alternate one in this scenario. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6304 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 06:39:53
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Schwarma, that would have ruled
But lot's of shows from the 2.0 were amazing. I'm glad they reformed in 2004.
Lot's of songs are amazing too.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1088 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 06:51:56
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| Yeah, I think there's a danger of imagining a best-case-scenario for an alternative solo career trajectory. His last two solo(ish) albums were Nonstoperotik and Francis & Paley. While I like Nonstoperotik, I'll take Indie Cindy, Beneath the Eyrie, and Doggerel over that trajectory. There's been some talk of having another producer than Tom record some of the same songs in this alternate timeline, but many of the songs wouldn't exist without Tom's prodding FB to write and record (and IC songs were written specifically for a Pixies album). For all we know, Charles may have gone into semi-retirement by now without the Pixies. I also think the talk of legacy is overblown - the 1.0 run is still there and is still ultimately what they will be remembered for. Everything else is found money. |
Edited by - Brank_Flack on 09/04/2025 06:52:42 |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1074 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 07:24:38
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I have to disagree about the "1.0 run is still there."
I've seen this with many things, like great movies that have bad sequels, etc. Yeah, it's still there...but there will always be this awkward footnote. "Oh but did you know they made albums in the 2020s?!? And they're nowhere near as good??" (keep in mind I prefer Frank solo over Pixies so I'm not quoting myself here.)
I mean I get it in some sense, like Paul McCartney has made some bad albums but he's still Paul fucking McCartney and gets a lifetime pass. Frank does too. But I think between the two choices of leaving Pixies as a beautiful, insane thing that lived and died young compared to what we have now, the first choice seems more appropriate for what the Pixies WAS.
And I've heard Frank talk about this stuff in interviews, and he plays the very modest "I'm just a guy writing songs" thing. But I do think these things matter and have an impact. That's why Pixies shows are massively successful while Frank solo shows, often with the same songs as a Pixies show, are less so. Whether we agree with it or not, "Pixies" does mean something in an iconic way in our culture. |
Edited by - Troubles A Foot on 09/04/2025 07:26:22 |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3291 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 07:48:47
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| There are several Twilight Zone episodes that come to mind as none of us ever seem to be able to escape this discussion that we’ve been having for well over a decade. |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1088 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 07:49:10
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Sure, but I think most people don't follow footnotes. Dylan released some brutal records in the 80s but they are just a footnote in his career. Neil Young's 80s and 21st century material is incredibly spotty but he is still a legend. I agree with you that the Pixies would be a more rarified thing if they burnt out rather than faded away, so to speak, and that the best case scenario would have been a successful FBF solo career, but I'd rather have IC, BTE, and Doggerel than worry about a sentence in their obituary about their less heralded records from the 21st century.
As Bedbug alluded, the less favourable reception to TML was already one such footnote back in the narrative of the 2000s, hence IC's reference to a legacy more "or less" uncheckered.
I concede that you have a point here, but this is probably a philosophic difference. I agree with John Lennon's critique of Young's line about burning out rather than fading away - that much of our actual life consists of fading away and that this is interesting if not courageous to document and explore. Otherwise, we should be joining the 27 club. |
Edited by - Brank_Flack on 09/04/2025 07:49:27 |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1088 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 07:50:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
There are several Twilight Zone episodes that come to mind as none of us ever seem to be able to escape this discussion that we’ve been having for well over a decade.
Haha yes. We need a general "Existential Musings About Whether Pixies 2.0 Should Exist" thread, along with "Tom D.: Hero, Villain, or In-between?"
Edit: add - "Wither Pixies 2.0 - Different from 1.0, and How So?" |
Edited by - Brank_Flack on 09/04/2025 07:52:37 |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3291 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 07:51:32
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I find myself agreeing with both Brank and Trouble as to their last comments even though they are in disagreement
That’s what I’m talking about with this conversation! |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1074 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 11:35:53
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| I mean I agree with Brank too. It's complicated. |
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Stevio10
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1140 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 13:08:22
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| Star Wars, Pixies and Frasier. 3 things I love that for one reason or another just couldn't be resurrected in the same way as the original. |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3291 Posts |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3291 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 21:00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Stevio10
Star Wars, Pixies and Frasier. 3 things I love that for one reason or another just couldn't be resurrected in the same way as the original.
Oh man, can you imagine what the Star Wars forum must be like after all these bad sequels?
And that’s a good illustration of what we’re talking about here:
The original Star Wars trilogy is like the first incarnation of the Pixies. Has the SW legacy been damaged by all the 2.0 / 3.0 Star Wars stuff that’s come out? |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1074 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 21:40:55
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| Yes. |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1074 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2025 : 21:48:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Here’s a nice live trio of Primrose into Mercy Me and Kings of the Prairie
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XQdHkspbNLw
Primrose has something interesting going on musically, and maybe played with more meat on it could pass for a classic Pixes song but man, I just can't conceive of what a typical Pixies fan makes of something so bland like Mercy Me. Just a standard blues melody and lyric with barely anything unique about it. Like is this some random band playing in a bar somewhere, or the fucking Pixies?
Even though it's kind of boring, I actually like Kings of the Prairies, but not as "A PIXIES SONG!!!!!!!" Has absolutely no place in a live context. This is a sweet natured pleasant Catholics song that would be near the end one of those albums. Gouge Away this is not.
Man I really dislike that damn Zombies album. So many artists I used to be obsessed with have put out albums that I flat out dislike in the past few years. Albums I will never listen to again because I gave it my best shot and never found myself enjoying it. I hope Frank and the band try something different on the next one.
I sometimes wonder if I'd like these songs more if Frank had done them in his country solo album he was planning that was mentioned in a few articles. Maybe they'd be down and dusty enough to feel kind of authentic and with a nice vibe. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6304 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 03:28:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
quote:
Originally posted by Stevio10
Star Wars, Pixies and Frasier. 3 things I love that for one reason or another just couldn't be resurrected in the same way as the original.
Oh man, can you imagine what the Star Wars forum must be like after all these bad sequels?
And that’s a good illustration of what we’re talking about here:
The original Star Wars trilogy is like the first incarnation of the Pixies. Has the SW legacy been damaged by all the 2.0 / 3.0 Star Wars stuff that’s come out?
Star Wars comparisons? This forum suddenly reads like a Weezer forum.
To answer the question: no. Not at all.
SW Legacy has been damaged a bit by the special editions of the first trilogy.
Still, millions of people learned of SW thanks to the prequals and sequals and new series.
People learn about Pixies every day because they are still touring and releasing records.
I can't believe that somebody would wish for Pixies 2.0 not happening. A nice take to talk about on a forum though.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
Edited by - billgoodman on 09/05/2025 03:39:07 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6304 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 03:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Here’s a nice live trio of Primrose into Mercy Me and Kings of the Prairie
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XQdHkspbNLw
Primrose has something interesting going on musically, and maybe played with more meat on it could pass for a classic Pixes song but man, I just can't conceive of what a typical Pixies fan makes of something so bland like Mercy Me. Just a standard blues melody and lyric with barely anything unique about it. Like is this some random band playing in a bar somewhere, or the fucking Pixies?
Even though it's kind of boring, I actually like Kings of the Prairies, but not as "A PIXIES SONG!!!!!!!" Has absolutely no place in a live context. This is a sweet natured pleasant Catholics song that would be near the end one of those albums. Gouge Away this is not.
Man I really dislike that damn Zombies album. So many artists I used to be obsessed with have put out albums that I flat out dislike in the past few years. Albums I will never listen to again because I gave it my best shot and never found myself enjoying it. I hope Frank and the band try something different on the next one.
I sometimes wonder if I'd like these songs more if Frank had done them in his country solo album he was planning that was mentioned in a few articles. Maybe they'd be down and dusty enough to feel kind of authentic and with a nice vibe.
Mercy Me works for me, because it has this later day Dylan/Cohen vibe vocally. I like Franks voice so much here.
That it's a classic blues song, a bar band type of thing actually works for me. The production plays to that strength. Especially Emma's vocal. But you only need one songs like this on one record.
I don't like Kings that much. Because you already heard Mercy Me on the record and some other slow burners.
Also I think the production is a little bit more off. Does Frank sings an echoing backing vocal of his own main vocal line, somewhere 2/3 in? Sounds spotty, should have been another killer Emma line.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
Edited by - billgoodman on 09/05/2025 03:43:11 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6304 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 03:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Here’s a nice live trio of Primrose into Mercy Me and Kings of the Prairie
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XQdHkspbNLw
I fucking love this. Especially Primrose, so pretty.
The sleepy Pixies snoozefest, I'm all for it.
If Pixies would do a set with TLM/SR/Doolittle mayhem in the beginning and then kick back with this trio and some Bossanova stuff and then a big finale with the harder songs of 1.0 (and 2.0!) than it could totally work.
Point is that Pixies pace their sets in a way that feels totally random.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1088 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 05:54:12
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One more defense of Mercy Me: fantastic (and dare I say angular) bridge that really elevates it beyond the blues into the Black-meets-Cohen territory I've written endlessly about.
Edit: the bridge also reminds me of the world of David Lynch. I could see it being played at the Bang! Bang! Club. |
Edited by - Brank_Flack on 09/05/2025 06:14:26 |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1074 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 08:42:08
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Alright, I'll say this too: Emma's voice is "nice" but it seems totally wrong for the Pixies. Another issue I have with the Zombies album.
There's no grit or sultriness to her voice. Kim's voice made you feel weirdly turned on and terrified at the same time. She has a mischievous quality, an intimidating quality, the girl at the party you can't stop staring at but you know she'll cut you down to size if you try to say anything to her, or just destroy you with how you look. Then that plus her chemistry with Frank (the weird alienated kid at the party) was such a huge part of the band. I'm not a "no Kim no deal" person but at least Paz can evoke that quality in a way, if a bit bubblier and sweeter sounding (both Kim and Paz sound like they are smiling when they're singing, but Paz's smile seems more inviting and Kim's seems like she's fucking with you.)
I have no idea what Emma is doing there. She feels like she should be in a different band.
Mercy Me has a few seconds of interesting music, but then there's the entire rest of the song. Remember when an entire Pixies song was exciting? I can write standard blues songs myself, I don't need the Pixies to do them. There's a reason I skip all the blues and rock n roll covers on those early Beatles albums, it's because those songs are boring.
EDIT: I'm in a bit of a nasty mood today. My post is a bit harsher than usual, I think. Feel free to not take me seriously. |
Edited by - Troubles A Foot on 09/05/2025 09:16:14 |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1088 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 09:43:28
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Yeah, I am more or less in agreement with you with Emma - sounds good but can't recapture the magic of the dynamic between Kim/Charles. But again, I'm at peace with this current iteration of the Pixies being something different than what came before, even if it inevitably falls short of it. In other words, Emma does feels like she should be in a different band, but I'm okay with this being basically a different band. Maybe their first real studio collaboration will fruitfully lead to further change/development. Either way, the 1.0 stuff still plays very well, but the performative focus is more on Charles than the Charles-female bassist dynamic. I think this was true too for Paz, whose voice was a bit thin and entirely without menace (although she was a more bubbly/warm stage presence).
I really don't think Mercy Me is a boring/standard blues song - it is a late-Cohen/Dylan homage that uses blues motifs as a grounded mantra-like base to jump out into a larger metaphysical-spiritual terrain. I think it succeeds at that quite well, but clearly that doesn't appeal to everyone.
Last thing I'd mention in terms of the discussion a few posts back - I imagine our collective ambivalence has something to do with the fact that there is much to be said both for burning out and for fading away. |
Edited by - Brank_Flack on 09/05/2025 12:35:17 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6304 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 11:45:15
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Paz brought an energy to the Pixies that was clearly missing when they toured all those years with Kim after 2004, maybe 2005
She wanted to be there, that's for sure. I think Pixies played better than ever with her. Even better than 1.0 run (I'm talking live)
I loved most of the ideas she brought to the band too
Pixies caught lightning in a bottle twice
As for Emma. I love her voice on lot's of the Zombies songs. Let's wait on the next record which should feature her as a real member.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Skatealex1
* Dog in the Sand *
1716 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 12:12:36
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Im interested to see how Emma sounds on the next record. Hopefully she can have some creative input into the songs. I could actually imagine her voice maybe working more with some punkier songs but who knows if the next album will have that.
Also agreed about Paz bringing new energy to the band. I think she did some good work with her contributions on BTE too.
A thought I had this morning about the legacy discussion too- I'm curious in an alternate reality where they released BTE as their comeback album- and maybe fleshed it out a little more- replace Ready to Love and Catfish Kate with some choices from the BTE demos... I could see the 2.0 material maybe being better recieved.
That is a big what it in a reality where we're skipping to album 3 of the new ones.. but it does seem to be the best recieved overall though according to reviews. If you go on Rateyourmusic it ranks a bit above the other 2.0 albums. |
Edited by - Skatealex1 on 09/05/2025 12:58:14 |
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Stevio10
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1140 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 13:18:13
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Lyrically, Primrose seems to borrow from Sister Isabelle.
'Far off in the distance I can hear the bells'
'Good morning, Brigid, I can hear the bell'
'Inside the church, there stands a girl I knew so well'
'Is it even real? Who knows?
Is there a sheep gone down in the well?'
I just feel Frank did these things better in his solo work and there's no need to repeat it with Pixies. If he needs to repeat it, or regurgitate it, just incorporate the original songs into the set.
I like Primrose, nothing against it. Same with Johnny Goodman and Mercy Me. But these songs have been done better already with Sister Isabelle, Johnny Barleycorn and Stupid Me.
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6304 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2025 : 11:18:33
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Nice find, you are probably right
Sister Isabelle is not an original, and I don't think it's better than Primrose.
I like both btw
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Jamie
- FB Fan -
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2025 : 13:11:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Skatealex1
fleshed it out a little more- replace Ready to Love and Catfish Kate with some choices from the BTE demos...
I've been thinking about this recently, even though BTE is the best 2.0 album it's also sort of a missed opportunity.
I think you can draw a line of demarcation between pre-BTE and BTE/post-BTE, that line being where they stopped trying to self-consciously sound like the Pixies. Some might call it the re-integration of Frank Black, but I think it's just Charles getting back to writing songs and letting the chips fall where they may. And personally I think the music has been better for it, not to mention it seems to have helped Charles get back to enjoying songwriting again.
BUT I also think, based on the BTE demos, they might have been about to crack it. As much as I like the version of BTE we got, the hypothetical version of that record with the demo songs finished and integrated really might have been able to stand with 1.0. |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3291 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2025 : 16:10:39
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Interesting take
And this topic always makes me ask:
Where in the world are all the B sides and outtakes to Indy Cindy, Head Carrier, Doggerel, and Zombies?
Even alternate studio versions would be nice to have |
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2025 North American Tour
