-= Frank Black Forum =-
-= Frank Black Forum =-
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Off Topic!
 General Chat
 Delete This Thread
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2022 :  17:27:46  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Don't talk about politics in this thread

Edited by - pot on 04/30/2022 02:25:41

Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2022 :  22:12:37  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I would if I had a more anonymous name.
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2022 :  07:07:17  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I would if I was sober. It's a very bad idea - so I'm going to ignore this thread while I try to find the delete button.
Go to Top of Page

danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
2785 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2022 :  19:03:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello world war three
Shall we play a game?
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2022 :  03:57:06  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I want to respond to this but it's in the wrong thread for this discussion so moving the thread here - at the obvious risk of still causing upset but let's keep it civil.

You can source a lot of valuable and well researched information from the alternative media these days, as opposed to the mainstream media who are all putting out nothing but lies these days. And the same lies - The Trusted News Initiative was set up in the last few years to keep all the main media giants on the same page, spouting the same narrative for the G7 nations.

quote:
Originally posted by tamefan

quote:
Originally posted by pot

[quote]Originally posted by Brank_Flack

I'm going to try to do my best and avoid the pot conspiracy bait - so great news about all the recording activity!



Just reiterating what Bill Gates said, although he won't admit to the fake side of things. Global mortality rates for the past few years show that.

The reason I'm mentioning it is because the Covid hysteria is still going on - and with all cause mortality rates spiking across all ages as a result of vaccine injury I think the cabal of western leaders who all graduated from the WEF before inflitrating our democracies with their lies and fascism might attempt to fake another pandemic using these numbers.

So as we head into the winter next year, just as Pixies release their new album we could be facing more lockdowns and restrictions on travel, which will surely affect any tours they might have planned.

No "conspiracy bait" just some uncomfortable truths. Whether you see it or choose to bury your head in the sand things are only going to continue getting worse as we head through this decade towards 2030, the target the UN and the WEF have set to "reset" how we live and it's all going to tie in with the green agenda. We can all look forward to the complete collapse of western civilisation in the very near future, and it's all being planned for us by people who were never elected to decide our futures, and sadly I think it's all going to happen because not enough people are awake to it or prepared to stand against it.

I'm not trying to put a downer on the news of the album release. We can all look back on this post and see if I'm right, which I hope I'm not.



Justin loves the CCP, just the kind of guy the WEF needed in place - are you seeing what's happening in Shanghai? People can't even leave their houses to buy food and they're going round taking pets away from people who tested positive and putting them down by beating them to death with sticks! There's also video going round of a group of high rises with the chilling sound of mass screams for helps - straight out of an episode of Black Mirror. What happened the last time China locked down? The potential for what kind of hysteria the media could try to stir up next is terrifying.

Anyway, I'm going to see a covers band in a few weeks which will be my first gig this decade, or even night out so hopefully going forward this summer I might get to fit in a few more before the apocalypse...

Edited by - pot on 04/11/2022 04:39:11
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2022 :  05:43:40  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Anyone noticed how abusive folk can get these days if you dare to say something that challenges their world view? It's not by accident or just people being people - the mainstream media has really done a number on the general public - the levels of ignorance and cognitive dissonance that seems to permeate everywhere these days is by some design, no doubt about that.

Here I am talking my conspiracy theory nonsense over here now. OK? I've held back for some time because it just always ends up a piss festival because it seems like some of those who subscribe to the more obvious by the day fake mainstream agenda have nothing to say, let alone anything with a civil tongue in their head :(
Go to Top of Page

Brank_Flack
= Cult of Ray =

Canada
769 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2022 :  12:40:35  Show Profile  Click to see Brank_Flack's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Pot, the reason people are not responding to you is not because they are sheeple duped by the mainstream media who are too cowardly to look at your alleged alternative facts, or too stupid to contest them. It's because many of us understand or have a sense of the dynamics of conspiracy theories (I know you will retort that this is a cowardly way of dismissing your uncomfortable truths) and disinformation. We know that there is no point of arguing because you live in an alternate and increasingly paranoid reality and will select which information you choose to internalized based on whether it confirms your narrative or not (confirmation bias). I'm not sure why I'm writing this, as I highly doubt anything can convince you, particularly once you've decided that scientific and verifiable information is part of an international plot to stifle freedom, whereas information from dodgy and disreputable media sources can be wholeheartedly embraced (after, of course 'doing your own research', aka reading fringe sources).

Whereas you think "the mainstream media has really done a number on the general public," we see that far-right disinformation has really done a number on big segments of the population, destabilizing democracies in favour of populist demagogues. It is not a coincidence that there is a strong correlation between education levels and susceptibility to disinformation - unfortunately (and I don't want or mean to paint the non-college educated with the same brush) those without the training or literacy to discern between more and less trustworthy sources of information are more likely to be manipulated by bad actors.

I have been following COVID very closely for the last two years and am a PhD Candidate in Political Science (this is not relevant for the discussion of the COVID science itself, but perhaps for the broader analysis of the relationship between COVID misinformation, online radicalization and the far-right that I will try to draw out). I agree that the "mainstream" media doesn't always get the reporting right. They have been, for example, generally slow to recognize COVID as an airborne disease, or to consider the long term ramifications of long COVID. Nevertheless, the "mainstream media" is not a monolithic being acting in unison. There are some sources/journalists who tend to have a better track record than others. Some outlets are more conservatives, others more liberal, and so on. You are going to find different perspectives on COVID in the Guadian, the Times, the BBC, the Daily Mirror and so on - some that downplay its seriousness and advocate the end of restrictions, others that emphasize its dangers and advocate more. If your criteria for heterogeneity, however, is whether COVID is a real phenomenon that governments are earnestly trying to address, or a fabicration/concoction by Bill Gates to force people to take a vaccine and to accept a New World Order that will both enslave them, then yes, the "mainstream media" provides more limited views. And if so - good! The media should not be spreading the dangerous propaganda that unfortunately you have proven susceptible to (social media, facebook, and RT already do this well enough).

COVID is real, millions of people have died from it and millions are living with long COVID. It's origins still are up in the air - perhaps it developed in a Chinese wet market, perhaps in a laboratory dedicated to understanding coronaviruses. In either case, it was not fabricated or created by Bill Gates, Soros, or any of the other boogie men of the far-right. The vaccines do not have microchips and are not meant to control populations. Yes, pharmaceutical companies profit off them - this does not entail that they are responsible for the disease. It is possible for two things to be possible at the same time: (1) pharmaceutical companies stand to make money from mass vaccinations (2) max vaccinations are good. Yes, there may be some side effects of the vaccine (and they may add up anecdotally - billions have been distributed!) but their side effects are far less severe and widespread than those of COVID itself. Yes, governments are signalling that they want to use the pandemic as an opportunity to restructure and strengthen the welfare state, and have used the slogans "the Great Reset" and "Build Back Better" to support it. Again - good! This is not a conspiracy, or an attempt to enslave humanity, but an earnest recognition that the neoliberal era has lead to increasingly unsustainable levels of inequality (this is bad both for the economy and is political destabilizing), and that government does indeed have a role in mitigating them by addressing some of their underlying structural causes.

Unfortunately, it is much more likely that you are being manipulated by right wing actors, either domestic or foreign, than that the rest of world have been duped by Bill Gates (or whoever else) in his plot to enslave the world (why?) via vaccines and the great reset. Domestically, your theories help the far-right by creating a voter/activist base radicalized by and against COVID measures, while also making some of the citizens who would benefit most from a "great reset" from the legacy of neoliberalism to be its greatest opponents. Likewise, it turns them against the very media that would hold them accountable, and against "globalism" (and here I have to stress, there are real reasons to be concerned with globalization) in favour of their own brand of populist nationalism. Secondly, it helps foreign far-right countries by weakening and dividing liberal-democracies from within, encourages them to leave or become suspicious of the very international bodies meant to protect the interests of their own countries (NATO, EU) and whose dissolution would benefit the foreign agents, and it helps mobilize citizens towards their causes (I saw that you made a previous dismissive comment to us waving Ukrainian flags in another thread - Russia has jumped on a QAnon conspiracy, arguing weeks after they started the war that they did so to stop COVID biolabs in Ukraine).

At the end of the day, your narrative simply isn't plausible (or is, to say the least, incredibly implausible), while it is easy to see why and how such narratives spread, and whose interests they serve. Meanwhile your narrative is backed by sketchy pseudo-science (which is not to say it is 100% wrong, the most convincing propaganda mixes falsehoods with partial truths to give the appearance of truth) - more mainstream science is not "mainstream" because it panders to "mainstream media" narratives, but because it is more widely accepted by the scientific community following intensive and ongoing peer-review efforts, which makes it more trustworthy (though still, in need of a * healthy * degree of skepticism, which is the job of the scientific community to provide).

As I've said before, I know this likely won't change your mind, as radicalized individuals tend to dig their heels into the narratives they've fallen prey to. I did feel, however, that it was important to provide some sort of answer to your criticisms of the "mainstream", maybe even if only for other members of the board potentially vulnerable to similar misinformation/conspiratorial thinking, as I do genuinely believe it is a threat to Western societies. If it does cause a crack of doubt in your mind, then that is a bonus and I would be very glad to have played a part in helping (if so, I do recommend reading up on online radicalization). I feel like I've said my piece here, and will not be returning to argue point by point against whatever dubious evidence that can be dug up, not because I'm worried that it can't withstand scrutiny, or because I willfully have my head in the sand, but because I don't see the point (I think it is more likely that the conspiratorial/paranoid select which 'evidence' they believe based on whether it fits their preferred narrative rather than that they select narratives by innocently following the 'evidence' - this is backed up further by the normative satisfaction conspiracy theorists feel in imagining themselves as an admirable/brave/heroic free thinker/individual in a world full of cowardly/stupid dupes and conformists), or think it is a good use of my time to go on any further trying to discredit conspiracy theories on a Frank Black forum.

Edited by - Brank_Flack on 04/13/2022 12:46:45
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2022 :  13:30:50  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Man I'm too busy to read all of that right now. Bookmarked for later - way to much to unpack by the looks of it.

I'm not after a battle rap here and I don't identify as some of the slurs that have been thrown at me, you know the usual standard programmed diatribes.

Folk have no idea how much the media is lying to them and manipulating them - but you're thinking that about me I suppose too. Listen, I've abandoned many left leaning friends and celebrities over the past two years in favour of a somewhat more balance range of alternative media views, many leaning more from the right.

If you watch carefully you can see many things have become inverted, it's like mankind is on the brink or in the middle of a major paradigm shift that by all indications has been long overdue for some time. And in the process it's been recorded by some historians that societies shift between materialistic and spiritual phases, and in between society goes mad. That would make us heading for a spiritual era - the dawning of the age of aquarius man.

So don't box me in categories to satisfy your ad hominems, and keep a civil tongue. Why are folk getting up my ass? But it's OK to just fire abuse and insults at me - if I did that what do you think would happen?

I don't give a shit if you don't like me - and the folk that do thanks for the bants.

The bottom line is this whole spitting in the face of anyone who dares to even talk about alternative narratives is quite disturbing, and anyone who does it is programmed in the membrane.
Go to Top of Page

Brank_Flack
= Cult of Ray =

Canada
769 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2022 :  13:45:51  Show Profile  Click to see Brank_Flack's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Pot, you're practically begging for people to engage with you in various threads. I did here and my impression is that you are not going to actually read what I said (hopefully you were being earnest saying you will bookmark it) and despite not reading it are reducing my comments to name calling, incivility, and "ad hominems". This is why people tend not to dignify these "alternative narratives" with responses other than despair. If you are going to rope this stuff into any conversation you want, please develop thicker skin when people challenge you and spare us from the victim complex.
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2022 :  14:14:11  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Begging? Don't make me laugh. It's just one character assassination after the other - poor debating skills. I win.

No I will read it more in depth later but right now I'm trying to get my head down for a busy day tomorrow. From a quick glance I think I'm already getting the general idea of what your saying though.

If I didn't have a thick skin I'd be gone years ago from this forum - I'm not the one screaming and yelling abuse.

I'm just saying what's on my fucking mind at the time - that's it.
Go to Top of Page

Discoking
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1008 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2022 :  23:41:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pot

Man I'm too busy to read all of that right now.
[+ long unrelated post + follow-up]


this actually made me laugh out loud.
you couldn't come up with it if you tried.
wow!


it's educational
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2022 :  06:39:05  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Discoking

quote:
Originally posted by pot

Man I'm too busy to read all of that right now.
[+ long unrelated post + follow-up]


this actually made me laugh out loud.
you couldn't come up with it if you tried.
wow!


it's educational



Come up with what? I don't/didn't have time to read it and disect it all and formulate a response because I was busy. What's so fucking hard to comprehend about that.

Having read it and acknowledged all and hominems and gaslighting I don't think there's any point - heard it all before too many times.

Oh I know why don't we have a discussion about how much I suck instead?

Amazing how vicious some can be these days towards any who dares to question the narrative - how dare we.
Go to Top of Page

Discoking
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1008 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  01:48:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pot

I don't think there's any point - heard it all before too many times.


This works in both directions, though.
I guess this answers your questions about why we can't have a discussion.


it's educational
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  03:39:17  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Discoking

quote:
Originally posted by pot

I don't think there's any point - heard it all before too many times.


This works in both directions, though.
I guess this answers your questions about why we can't have a discussion.



Vainglorious attempts to sound clever - epic fail.

We can't have a debate about it because as soon as I say anything the abuse and demands to shut me down start flying.

I'd kind of forgotten about the last time but it's like the same names keep popping up again and again? It was all water under the bridge as far as I was concerned but apparently other people still hold grudges.

The same global media complex that's got you all fooled is the same one that deplatforms any journalist and many highly qualified experts who dare to question the narrative - even when simply quoting verifiable facts from government websites etc.

Oh but nothing to see there. Just follow the stupid rules that change every other day and take your medicine. Dr Fauci says it's safe.

Imbeciles for the new world slaughter.

Edited by - pot on 04/15/2022 03:41:09
Go to Top of Page

Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  09:41:29  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
pot, it would be interesting, possibly constructive, even as just a thought experiment, to actually engage with what Brank said. He wrote a respectful, thoughtful, intelligent post to you and you ignored it and played the victim (which I assume is not a quality you admire in others.) Why not just go for it? Just for laughs?
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  09:53:07  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot

pot, it would be interesting, possibly constructive, even as just a thought experiment, to actually engage with what Brank said. He wrote a respectful, thoughtful, intelligent post to you and you ignored it and played the victim (which I assume is not a quality you admire in others.) Why not just go for it? Just for laughs?



I didn't ignore it. I was BUSY!

I'm getting round to it.

FFS contrary to what it might seem like I do sometimes have other things to deal with other than sitting on my couch being a keyboard warrior.

And you know what - I have already replied with something. So I didn't "ignore" anything.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph and the wee fucking donkey..
Go to Top of Page

Jason
* Dog in the Sand *

1416 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  11:37:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Every internet forum eventually has someone on it who needs to make it all about themselves and their issues. And that's pot.

He's been hated here for a long time. He takes a beating over derailing threads with tedious shit and then he goes away for awhile. Then he comes back and does it all over again.

Me, I have very strong opinions about the vaccine and I do express them. But I don't express them here because I know that no one cares. Frankblack.net is a sleepy small town. We just want to milk our cows and brew up some coffee. There are other places where you can carry on about your incendiary issues. If you're doing that in the middle of a Pixies thread, my conclusion is either A) you are too crazy/dumb to find more approprite online venues for your issues or B) you DID find those venues and even THEY hated you.
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  11:56:02  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
[EDIT - Ironed out some of the typos so this ramble reads a bit better]

OK then. Here we go (as I said) is my response to this post - in as much detail as I can find the energy for right now. Enjoy the ramble!

quote:
Originally posted by Brank_Flack

Pot, the reason people are not responding to you is not because they are sheeple duped by the mainstream media who are too cowardly to look at your alleged alternative facts, or too stupid to contest them.



Or just facts as I prefer to think of them (as opposed to the constant stream of lies from the media giants)
People are responding - but not with counter facts. No just the usual disrespect and abuse - which seems to be OK in the context of this place as long as it's being directed at me? And it won't be the first time. Here you are you with all your mainstream media "facts" though which have little or no connection with the reality of what's actually going on because you seem to want to spend your time listening to the endless crap they spout there, as opposed to digging further for infrormation from more credible (but not government stamped) journalists who spend their lives uncovering the honest truth.

quote:
It's because many of us understand or have a sense of the dynamics of conspiracy theories (I know you will retort that this is a cowardly way of dismissing your uncomfortable truths) and disinformation. We know that there is no point of arguing because you live in an alternate and increasingly paranoid reality and will select which information you choose to internalized based on whether it confirms your narrative or not (confirmation bias).



Conspiracy theories which are backed up by verifiable evidence are called conspiracy facts. Your attempt to discredit what I'm saying by lumping it in with all conspiracy theories into the same bracket and stereotyping anyone who has an interest or a belief in some of them by calling them paranoid or "sucked in by far right Russian disinformation" is just lame. It's a trope that's bandied around but the media giants to psy-op the masses into following their fake narrative, and you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

quote:
I'm not sure why I'm writing this, as I highly doubt anything can convince you, particularly once you've decided that scientific and verifiable information is part of an international plot to stifle freedom, whereas information from dodgy and disreputable media sources can be wholeheartedly embraced (after, of course 'doing your own research', aka reading fringe sources).



What verifiable information? So far as the COVID pandemic hoax goes pretty much everything we've been told by "the scientists" (ie. the ones who are given all the media coverage because they fit the narrative) is lies - and there's plenty of evidence that the pandemic was fake. The lockdowns have caused irreparable damage to people's lives, their physical and mental health and their finances and it's the poor and vulnerable who suffered and continue to suffer. And the vaccines are not safe - they are causing masses of injury and death and we may have yet to see the worst of that. The evidence for this is all around.

Sure, there are some verifible truths in there somewhere - people died and got ill. But this is nothing new!

In 2009 during the Swine Flu scandal, where Big Pharma lobbied governments to roll out their new vaccines due to the health emergency - again completely overstating the seriousness of the pandemic) people got injured and died from vaccine injury. What's happening now has even happened before in fairly recent history, and still people are buying the lies.

And what did the WHO do around this time - they redefined the parameters for declaration of a global pandemic.
Before 2009:
1. The disease has to be present globally
2. The disease much be causing a significant and observable rise in illness
3. The disease much be causing a significant and observable rise in mortality
After 2009 the only citerion required was 1. which basically means anything can now be classified as a pandemic.
So far as 2. and 3. goes the facts are this - NO increase in global illness or mortality throughout 2020 and 2020. None.

And what you might not have gleaned from your amazingly reliable and trustworthy mainstream media sources is that right now governments are passing leglislation that will hand over full authority to the WHO to force governments to lockdown and mandate treatments in the event that there's another pandemic - which it is looking almost certain their will be since our beloved billionaire philathropist unelected leaders seem to be great at "predicting" these things. It's called the Global Pandemic Treay and it will grant powers to the WHO to override our democracies and dictate policy - whereas before they had to rely on lobbying governments they will now have this power officially in legally binding terms. This is going through now - but no coverage of that in the mainstream media..

quote:

Whereas you think "the mainstream media has really done a number on the general public," we see that far-right disinformation has really done a number on big segments of the population, destabilizing democracies in favour of populist demagogues. It is not a coincidence that there is a strong correlation between education levels and susceptibility to disinformation - unfortunately (and I don't want or mean to paint the non-college educated with the same brush) those without the training or literacy to discern between more and less trustworthy sources of information are more likely to be manipulated by bad actors.



You want far right disinformation then look no further than the current war coverage - it's all about bad man Putin (and I'm not saying I support him or he's never done anything bad) and Russia this and Russia that and it's been going on for as long as I can remember - and people have this idea embedded in their heads now that Russia are the bad guys. But are they really? What about the US and the UK and the NATO allies and all the war crimes and genocide they've commited? Even if Russia is in the wrong, what they are doing is like a drop in the ocean of international war crimes, bullying, genocide and human rights abuses that we have committed since as far back as the end of WWII.

No mention in the media of the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Russian-speaking Ukrainians in the Donbas regions since NATO staged it's military coup in 2014 and ousted the democratically elected government - because they were siding more with Russia and not the EU.

After the end of WWII when NATO was established it was agreed that it would not expand eastwards on to Russia's border - but that is exactly what it's done - in breach of the international treaty we made with them decades ago. And now, the US has at least 30 bioweapons labs in the Ukraine. So I think Putin is right to send the military in, I don't blame him at all. What would the US do if China started developing weapons of mass destruction in labs in Mexico? I don't think the US military would show as much restraint as Russia.

And right now we've got actual Nazi battalions in the Ukraine committing the most horrendous war crimes - knee capping soldiers - raping and torturing women to death and drawing swastikas on their bodies - tying people to lamposts and painting their faces and beating them (I've seen the video evidence for this) and what are we in the west doing? We're sending them billions of pounds/dollars of weapons. We are arming actual Nazis on the Russian border!

I know what sources I trust when it comes to the media these days.

In the last few years the G7 nations have collaborated with their own media organisations to promote out the exact same narrative to all the mainstream media whenever anything happens, or they want to create the impression something has happened - all the mainstream news comes from the Trusted News Initiative - a misnomer if I ever heard one. They have bought all the media giants and are controlling the narrative - to great success it would seem seeing as so many people still beleive the utter tripe they punt out every day.

quote:
I have been following COVID very closely for the last two years and am a PhD Candidate in Political Science (this is not relevant for the discussion of the COVID science itself, but perhaps for the broader analysis of the relationship between COVID misinformation, online radicalization and the far-right that I will try to draw out). I agree that the "mainstream" media doesn't always get the reporting right. They have been, for example, generally slow to recognize COVID as an airborne disease, or to consider the long term ramifications of long COVID. Nevertheless, the "mainstream media" is not a monolithic being acting in unison. There are some sources/journalists who tend to have a better track record than others. Some outlets are more conservatives, others more liberal, and so on. You are going to find different perspectives on COVID in the Guadian, the Times, the BBC, the Daily Mirror and so on - some that downplay its seriousness and advocate the end of restrictions, others that emphasize its dangers and advocate more. If your criteria for heterogeneity, however, is whether COVID is a real phenomenon that governments are earnestly trying to address, or a fabicration/concoction by Bill Gates to force people to take a vaccine and to accept a New World Order that will both enslave them, then yes, the "mainstream media" provides more limited views. And if so - good! The media should not be spreading the dangerous propaganda that unfortunately you have proven susceptible to (social media, facebook, and RT already do this well enough).



I have a degree in physics - so I'm more qualified than most from a scientific perspective to make an assessment on the fake pandemic narrative.

quote:

COVID is real, millions of people have died from it and millions are living with long COVID. It's origins still are up in the air - perhaps it developed in a Chinese wet market, perhaps in a laboratory dedicated to understanding coronaviruses.



Whatever COVID is - this isn't nor ever was a pandemic.

Yes, people died - but not any more than normal. The average age of death is about 83 or something! Most of the alleged COVID deaths also weren't COVID deaths - "died within 28 days of a PCR test" where they ramped the cycles up to about 35 or 40 which meant there was so much noise a positive result meant nothing - they were likely picking up fragments of some other virus that the patients immune system dealt with weeks or months ago. The PCR test is not, nor ever was a diagnositic tool. It cannot show infection with COVID and produces 90%+ false positives.

The PCR test was used to provide fake numbers of infections which were plastered all over the news every day and used to fear and coerce people into complying with the lockdown and mask mandates and to take the vaccines - none of which are safe or even work. It was like a negative feedback mechanism - the fake numbers were used to coerce people into complying with the mask rule, and in turn the presence of everyone walking around with masks further stoked fear in the masses and visually projected an image that made it look like we were in a pandemic. A stroke of genius from the teams of behavioural psychologists governments are using to plan their next assaults on our freedoms.

Old people in care homes were systamically euthanised with midazolam - denied access to doctors and left to die when many of them could have been saved. Young people were admitted to hospitals and placed on ventilators when it wasn't necessary, tubes stuck down their necks which ultimately led to their demise - these are usually last resort measures and patients don't tend to survive but they employed as a standard practise to protect health workers from exposure to COVID. And then there's the vaccines, none of which provide any protection and are causing massive spikes in all cause mortality across all ages.

A group of scientists have analysed the VAERS and Yellow Card data for vaccine injuries (it's all out there for anyone to see) and they found that some batches of the vaccines are far more deadly than others - and this could not have happened by accident or be attributed to margins of error in the production - it must have happened by design - which suggests they were designed to cause harm. It has been speculated that the vaccines are in fact a bioweapon themselves, and the reason for the statistical variation is because they are "calibrating a weapon" and there is a global depopulation agenda.

So far as I know that's not coming from far-right Russian disinformation sources - it's coming from teams of actual scientists, highly qualified people who are not getting paid for this and stand to lose their licences or accreditation statuses - and many doctors have already.

Like I say, I hope it's wrong. If it's not though, don't say nobody tried to warn anybody.

quote:

The vaccines do not have microchips and are not meant to control populations.



I never said they did. One of the crazy conspiracy theories going around along with the 5G stuff - probably inserted into the minds by disinformation agents with a view to using to discredit all the alternative narratives.

quote:

In either case, it was not fabricated or created by Bill Gates, Soros, or any of the other boogie men of the far-right. Yes, pharmaceutical companies profit off them - this does not entail that they are responsible for the disease. It is possible for two things to be possible at the same time: (1) pharmaceutical companies stand to make money from mass vaccinations (2) max vaccinations are good. Yes, there may be some side effects of the vaccine (and they may add up anecdotally - billions have been distributed!) but their side effects are far less severe and widespread than those of COVID itself. Yes, governments are signalling that they want to use the pandemic as an opportunity to restructure and strengthen the welfare state, and have used the slogans "the Great Reset" and "Build Back Better" to support it. Again - good! This is not a conspiracy, or an attempt to enslave humanity, but an earnest recognition that the neoliberal era has lead to increasingly unsustainable levels of inequality (this is bad both for the economy and is political destabilizing), and that government does indeed have a role in mitigating them by addressing some of their underlying structural causes.



The idea that it was and still is a pandemic was conjured up by these people, and the WEF and they are using this to try to push forward with their Great Reset agenda. There may have been a mild pandemic and it was probably just the flu. A group of scientists have performed post mortems on hundreds or thousands of covid deaths and found that nearly all of them actually died of the flu - and mild flu pandemics happen every other year. They are challenging the CDC in court about this - altohugh I have not heard the outcome of that - the CDC probably won the case because most of the justic system is corrupt too. Yes of course, it wasn't mild for all those who died a horrible death and I'm not trying to downplay the suffering people have gone through (or neglect to mention all the other illnesses people are still unable to get treatment for because everything is about covid now) but RELATIVELY speaking and in the proper context it was not a serious pandemic and there was no reason for masks or lockdowns or mass vaccination programs.

Early prophylactic treatments using thoroughly tested and safe dugs like Ivermectin were banned - these should have been used and could have been used to save many lives. But the medical authorities would not have been able to gain emergency authorisation for their experimental new mRNA treatment if there were alternatives on the market. Big Pharma is SO CORRUPT!

....

I definitely agree that there are many things in the world that need "reseting" but the realpolitik of the situation they are proposing is not something I am on board with, nor did anyone elect these people who have bought and paid their way into our democracies.

This is another digression that opens up many other topics to discuss. Like the green agenda - I'm all in favour of vastly reducing our dependance on oil but how are we all going to transition to EVs by the year 2030? It's simply not possible or feasible - unless the future world they have planned for us means cars and transport will become a privelege enjoyed by the elite classes only. There's also the issue of child slave labour in the mines were they source all the rare metals for the battery technology, and the fact that there is no way we could ever source enough materials for everyone to own an EV - something like about 50,000 tons of dirt has to be processed for one car battery or something like that? And where is the energy coming from for that?

So the NWO Great Reset might seem appealing on some levels but the reality of what life could be like under this propsed new technocratic global communist authority might not be so nice for everyone.

They way they are approaching it will plunge millions of people into poverty and there will be food shortages and this will lead to mass civil unrest like we've never seen before. And maybe this is what they are planning and what they want to happen? Crises precipitate change. Problem Reaction Solution..

It's like they are engineering it all - the complete economic collapse of the west and it's happening now. Digital currencies are round the corner - as are Chinese social credit systems. Every aspect of our lives will be control by these narcissistic psychos. Carry on though, if this is kind of world you want to live in? I don't. I want to live free and be master of my own destiny - for what time I still hav left. I've already put up with decade of fucking cannabis prohibition so why would I trust the same people to direct the politics of the future?

p.s. Bill Gates now owns most farm land in the US - so he now controls the majority of the food supply in the US.

quote:

Unfortunately, it is much more likely that you are being manipulated by right wing actors, either domestic or foreign, than that the rest of world have been duped by Bill Gates (or whoever else) in his plot to enslave the world (why?) via vaccines and the great reset. Domestically, your theories help the far-right by creating a voter/activist base radicalized by and against COVID measures, while also making some of the citizens who would benefit most from a "great reset" from the legacy of neoliberalism to be its greatest opponents. Likewise, it turns them against the very media that would hold them accountable, and against "globalism" (and here I have to stress, there are real reasons to be concerned with globalization) in favour of their own brand of populist nationalism. Secondly, it helps foreign far-right countries by weakening and dividing liberal-democracies from within, encourages them to leave or become suspicious of the very international bodies meant to protect the interests of their own countries (NATO, EU) and whose dissolution would benefit the foreign agents, and it helps mobilize citizens towards their causes (I saw that you made a previous dismissive comment to us waving Ukrainian flags in another thread - Russia has jumped on a QAnon conspiracy, arguing weeks after they started the war that they did so to stop COVID biolabs in Ukraine).



It's been verified that the US does have 30+ bioweapons labs in the Ukraine, and many across other parts of the world. If I was the leader of a country and the US had WMD labs sitting on my border I'd be very concerned about that.

quote:

At the end of the day, your narrative simply isn't plausible (or is, to say the least, incredibly implausible), while it is easy to see why and how such narratives spread, and whose interests they serve. Meanwhile your narrative is backed by sketchy pseudo-science (which is not to say it is 100% wrong, the most convincing propaganda mixes falsehoods with partial truths to give the appearance of truth) - more mainstream science is not "mainstream" because it panders to "mainstream media" narratives, but because it is more widely accepted by the scientific community following intensive and ongoing peer-review efforts, which makes it more trustworthy (though still, in need of a * healthy * degree of skepticism, which is the job of the scientific community to provide).



Instead of focusing on some conspiracy theory busting "fact-checker" that's probably been designed with the sole purpose of discredting alternative narratives irrespective of the truth, why not look at some of the masses of evidence that suggest very strongly that things I'm saying here are not only plausbile, but verifiably true. Most of the evidence is quite easy to consider for the layman - if you can't see it then you either haven't bothered to look or you lack critical thinking skills. Your entire post is just parroting the same lies from the mainstream media I've heard over and over again - it's all put out there to direct the masses against any dissenting voices - becaues the powers are be are lying and they know they are lying.

Many of the western leaders are possibly also unaware that they are talking complete and utter nonense - from the scripts they are all given - lots of useful idiots being used to promote their fake mainstream narratives.

quote:

As I've said before, I know this likely won't change your mind, as radicalized individuals tend to dig their heels into the narratives they've fallen prey to. I did feel, however, that it was important to provide some sort of answer to your criticisms of the "mainstream", maybe even if only for other members of the board potentially vulnerable to similar misinformation/conspiratorial thinking, as I do genuinely believe it is a threat to Western societies. If it does cause a crack of doubt in your mind, then that is a bonus and I would be very glad to have played a part in helping (if so, I do recommend reading up on online radicalization). I feel like I've said my piece here, and will not be returning to argue point by point against whatever dubious evidence that can be dug up, not because I'm worried that it can't withstand scrutiny, or because I willfully have my head in the sand, but because I don't see the point (I think it is more likely that the conspiratorial/paranoid select which 'evidence' they believe based on whether it fits their preferred narrative rather than that they select narratives by innocently following the 'evidence' - this is backed up further by the normative satisfaction conspiracy theorists feel in imagining themselves as an admirable/brave/heroic free thinker/individual in a world full of cowardly/stupid dupes and conformists), or think it is a good use of my time to go on any further trying to discredit conspiracy theories on a Frank Black forum.



Waste of both our times probably.

Honestly though, if I see that something really bad is going down in the world then I feel I should raise my voice at least some of the time and say something - and it's not like "everything I post about is about some conspiracy theory"

If I'm wrong then so be it. I hope I am wrong, but I don't think I am. If I'm right though then voices need to be raised and this needs to become part of the discussion, somewhere. Is it not better to say something and be wrong, than to say nothing and be right?

So do not ever tell me to censor what is on my mind (that's not directed at you necessarilly Brank_Flack)

We got Julian Assange still rotting in prison, still not actually charged with any crime - all because he exposed US war crimes. While the MSM carries on with their fake news campaign, warmongering, psy-opping the world into a state of hysteria. That's ALL you need to know to know about how far the corruption has infected every aspect of the modern world.

quote:
Originally posted by Jason

Every internet forum eventually has someone on it who needs to make it all about themselves and their issues. And that's pot.

He's been hated here for a long time. He takes a beating over derailing threads with tedious shit and then he goes away for awhile. Then he comes back and does it all over again.

Me, I have very strong opinions about the vaccine and I do express them. But I don't express them here because I know that no one cares. Frankblack.net is a sleepy small town. We just want to milk our cows and brew up some coffee. There are other places where you can carry on about your incendiary issues. If you're doing that in the middle of a Pixies thread, my conclusion is either A) you are too crazy/dumb to find more approprite online venues for your issues or B) you DID find those venues and even THEY hated you.



Pish.

I've honestly never done anything here apart from try to by nice to people and post interesting material.

If anyone here hates me then it's no reflection on my character.

I'm quite a likeable, easy going guy really so ayone who doesn't like me; it's probably because you're a cunt and I honestly couldn't care less.

Edited by - pot on 04/16/2022 01:18:49
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  12:15:02  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There we go then. I guess if enough members piss me off enough (again) I might just leave again - and who knows maybe this time I won't bother coming back - if all folk round here can do is get up my ass all the time and say mean things. Jason - natenate - Discoking - what is all your problems?

If I say something, and you don't like it just move on to the next post. Don't read any of my posts. Read them and if you feel like replying then don't insult me - I've put with this shit long enough.

Seriously, it's just one person after another having a dig at me - and what did I do? Oh it's because of my "victim complex"

I don't think there's any point in hanging around any longer - I don't need this constant negativity from certain people there!
Go to Top of Page

Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  12:27:00  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jason

Every internet forum eventually has someone on it who needs to make it all about themselves and their issues. And that's pot.



I have to say, I absolutely do not hate pot.

I've been on some incredibly toxic forums with people I truly hated. Pot is a sweetheart compared to those places.

I do worry about pot and I sometimes find him difficult (but I can be too!) to debate something with, and I want the best for him. I definitely do not hate him. I like talking about music with him.
Go to Top of Page

Jason
* Dog in the Sand *

1416 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  12:31:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't leave yet! Those people who think that your political derailings of Pixies threads are really cool and interesting are going to show up any day now, I'm sure.
Go to Top of Page

Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  13:02:25  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I personally do not want pot to leave.
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2022 :  15:34:53  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot

I personally do not want pot to leave.



If it weren't for the few decent posters like yourself who I do seem to interect with without anyone being rude or antagonstic I'd probably have left 15 years ago.

---

Been a few insignificant spats over nothing in the past - I move on and try and forget it and not hold any grudges, whereas others.

I've really just about had enough of the attitude of some people in here towards me. Maybe it's time to just move on. If the people around you constantly go out of their way to bring you down then best to just find another space.

I normally make a real effort to keep it civil here and not rise to any of it (most of the time it's not a problem) but I'm really struggling with that today so apologies to everyone else observing for the tone of some of my comments today.

Some people (and I've always tried to be like this) will always try and look for the best in people, but others seem to revel in picking flaws in people and giving them shit for it. If you're nice to me I'm the same back, I don't have beef with anyone who hasn't done me a wrong turn and nobody's perfect. So everyone directing their negative crap towards me lately just do one! Got a negative thought in your head about me? Keep it in your head. Alright?
Go to Top of Page

Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *

1013 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2022 :  09:43:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pot,

You're all right. Just don't derail music threads IF you have been; I don't know I've not been keeping score.

Here in the States I don't subscribe to either major political party and think it a shame we've not had a viable, powerful third party candidate in years, maybe ever actually.

Pushing conspiracy theories to the side (and I've read my fair share) I can appreciate anyone hesitant to take a new vaccine by companies that aren't liable (as far as I know) and make products with dreadful side effects.

I have a healthy skepticism of both my government and corporations; once glance at their collective track record should suffice.

One can't go wrong with weight-lifting, a healthy diet (cut out bread/processed sugar/cheese) and while not one to proseltyze, prayer. Being creative is good too, whether pro or amateur if that's where your interest lies.

And now to derail this; thus far Pixies 2.0 hasn't matched Pixies 1.0 for me. Hasn't even come up to the lesser works of the Catholics. There's some gems in there for sure but largely hasn't done it for me. I've not been listening to much FB in any form these days, perhaps my taste has changed or I'm just on a listening hiatus from the man's amazing music and incredible bandmates.

Oh no! I feel the pull of politics again. Drat.

I think people have more in common with each other regardless of political stance/belief than they do with the so-called rulers who seem to prioritize their own power and profit over the job they took, which was working for the people of the U.S.

Too much corruption. Too much TV.

All right, well. This went on longer than I'd thought. Peace to my fellow Fb Forum members..! Maybe I'll score some Pearl Jam tickets in the fall. Hope you are all doing well. To the fellow who writes his own FB music blog and breakdown of the albums, it's interesting reading, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

cheers
Go to Top of Page

Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <

2599 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2022 :  14:18:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How can someone be a FBF fan and NOT like conspiracy theories?

Pot I hope you stay. I hope we all stay, there’s too few active members on this board. Who cares if some want to talk politics?

I would also ask how can someone be an FBF fan and not have occasion to talk / think about religion? (Another “don’t go there” topic).
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2022 :  16:36:00  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Oof. You said the "R" word.

I've just got to a point where I'm looking at the world and things are not right and it's obvious that the government and the media are lying all the time about so much stuff. 9/11 was my entry point down the rabbit hole, as they say - and I've studied physics so I knew on the day it happened that there must have been explosives - but my peers suggested that the official story can be the only plausible explanation and then the rest was cognitive dissonanse I suppose for a good decade or so.

And luckily conspiracy theories happened to also be kind of interesting..

If you understand the universe from studying physics and quantum mechanics and cosmology then when you see how crazy and unfathomable actual deep reality is than anything that happens in today's fucked up clown world is easily digestible.

Speaking of religion or spirituality and why not bedbug, I gained more understanding from reading The Tao Of Physics after I graduated with physics a few tears later than I did from the pretty lousy physics department at the time in Glasgow Uni.

In the last century we have witnessed an explosion in human consciousness, in terms of science and the technological breakthroughs that have come with it and there were three major scientific advancements that turned our understanding of our world on it's head and to this day none of them are fully understood, and possibly never will be because we have reached the limit of our capability to understand the nature of our own existence?

I have no doubt this is interlinked in some way with today's events and that it signifies a major global paradigm shift is underway and possibly who knows what sort of evolution of consciousness will come from it?

Yeah armx3 so much corruption everywhere. Your 1st, 2nd and 3rd in command right now in the US couldn't arrange a sock drawer - Nancy Pelosi? And Biden are seriously impaired cognitively due to age and gin and who knows what else - too much adrenochrome maybe?

The US government is completely nuts right now. Whereas Putin has been the leader of Russia since forever now and has high public confidence ratings. Seem like, even though Putin might not be a good guy either really that the Russian government is working for the Russian people better than the US gov is for US people?

Our government is completely crazy too.

Will people of the future ever know what is really happening today?

Edited by - pot on 04/16/2022 19:29:09
Go to Top of Page

Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~

Spain
2668 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2022 :  05:19:35  Show Profile  Click to see Newo's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The job of the Russian government is to crush their own citizenry until a fine granular quality obtained.

Also, for those of you annoyed by Pot's conspiracy takes, tbh he's quite easygoing compared to when King of Karaoke was on full flame here in the late noughties, we were just scrolling through acres of pure copy-paste and him calling everyone slaves every other paragraph.

--


Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs.
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2022 :  10:07:39  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Newo

The job of the Russian government is to crush their own citizenry until a fine granular quality obtained.



So what's the job of the US government - To crush everyone in the entire world?

Man, it's just been nothing but Russia Bad Guys propaganda all my life - and they're often the bad guys in filsm and TV. I've never been to Russia because I've never really fancied it, but is it so bad there?

It's getting pretty bad here thes days, and I fear worse is round the corner.

The amount of Russophobia the media is stoking these days as well is ridiculous - shops removing vodoka from their shelves etc. and now Russian tennis players can't play in Wimbeldon! Oh but we've still got the annoying meerkat adverts though, can't seem to get rid of those..

No doubt the western NATO allies are the bad guys these days, and have been for a long time - complete psycho Nazi fucks running the show - behind the curtains of their WEF mentored young global leaders of course, they couldn't do it without their useful idiots in all the right places.

If you haven't got an escape plan I'd start looking into one now, because the non-elite classes across the world right now are all up shit creek without a paddle big time - and when the food shortages start to really cause problems then better make sure you've got weapons to protect your larder.

I'm seriously terrified about what's coming next.

Don't remember Kinf Of Karaoke - when I saw there was a reply to this thread my heart sank a little and I was expecting more random abuse and slurs thrown in my direction.

Edited by - pot on 04/22/2022 10:09:01
Go to Top of Page

danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
2785 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2022 :  18:48:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
all right let’s bring it in. we got to hug this one out then step back and breathe.
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/26/2022 :  03:03:17  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Come on everybody it's Hug A Conspiracy Theorist Week!

I'm not a conspiracy theorist (says all conspiracy theorists) I'm just trying to look beyond the mainstream - which is completely full of bullshit these days. You should try it sometime. You might not like what you find out, so you can either deal with it or you can go on twitter and hurl abuse at people and report them to try and get them suspended.
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/26/2022 :  07:05:02  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What's with all these meat factories going on fire? This was happening in 2020 just after COVID-1984 started acros the US, and it's happening again all over the place and there are reports of a fire at a sausage factory in the UK today. Tie that in with the grain shortages "because bad Russians again" and all the rest and tell me what you think is going on there?

I'm just blowing my trumpet here not because I'm into conspiracy theories and I want to be like all the other cool kids, I'm saying these things because I'm genuinely concerned about where the world is goes these days, and at a seemingly accelerating pace. I'd rather be completely wrong and say something than the other way about.
Go to Top of Page

Discoking
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1008 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2022 :  12:10:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
you're just annoying as fuck, always have been, even without the conspiracy stuff. (but that definitely doesn't help.)
every single thing in this thread proves the point.


it's educational
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2022 :  14:56:50  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Discoking

you're just annoying as fuck, always have been, even without the conspiracy stuff. (but that definitely doesn't help.)
every single thing in this thread proves the point.



Why don't you just fuck off out of my face.
Go to Top of Page

pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3491 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2022 :  14:59:05  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sorry but I'm finding it a bit hard to temper my language here these days, in light of the continued abuse I keep receiving from some members. Sick of clicking on threads and finding comments like the above.

Edited by - pot on 04/27/2022 14:59:52
Go to Top of Page

Discoking
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1008 Posts

Posted - 04/29/2022 :  01:43:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i thought you didn't care what people thought of you.

and did you just tell me to shut up? after all this?
haha.


it's educational
Go to Top of Page

Discoking
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1008 Posts

Posted - 04/29/2022 :  01:44:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if you don't like my posts, maybe you shouldn't read them.

now if you will excuse me, i'm very busy.


it's educational
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
-= Frank Black Forum =- © 2002-2020 Frank Black Fans, Inc. Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000