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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2014 : 13:03:31
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So I think I may have been the one to derail the Interview thread with talk of mastering and fidelity and all that jazz as it relates to the EPs. I don't think I started it, but I took it to the next level, and for that... well I'm not sorry because it's interesting!
Also, I've noticed it comes up in nearly every other topic relevant to recent Pixies releases.
SO!... here's a thread we can debate the Pixies EP mastering and production and whatever the hell else that's related to that.
This is a great topic in my opinion and one that I expect can gather some heated but good natured interaction.
Let's get it on!
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2014 : 13:05:39
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I'll start by posting my last post on the matter from the Interview thread I so rudely derailed...
quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
Why is this even being discussed in this thread?
It was a sidebar that took on a life of it's own. I agree we should probably start a new Fidelity thread or something.
I was a major perpetrator of it I'll admit. To be fair, it has indeed cropped up in one form or another on many recent threads. Except to respond to the following, I'll refrain from muddying up our interview thread with further aural commentary.
picpic said...
"This type of listeners probably won't be excited to hear bit-perfect, ultra-linear sounding musical reproduction music the Neil Young player is offering... especially on modern records (latest proof: people on this forum like the vinyl version of EP1 EP2. It is actually as badly mastered as the CD version, but vinyl offers some coloring to those ultra-boosted-numeric-sounding records that softens everything, which is actually more comfortable to listen to)."
The point of talking about Neil's pono is that it proves that people care about the quality of the production sound, not a vinyl comparison. It's apples and oranges and not particularly relevant to my point. I was suggesting that it shows that there is an appetite for sound that is not destroyed (like it used to be in the good old days, the vinyl versions of the EP still sound like shit, they just sound like normal shit instead of Taco Bell shit). The Pono would make the digital EP's sound far worse than they already do.
Along with that thing is a direct full resolution mastering (via access to Columbia's ENTIRE catalog). That's the most exciting thing about it. They're pulling from the best of the best masters and doing full resolution archival of those masters before they fall apart. THAT's the good thing.
Vinyl, yes - it adds something. The important part, is when direct mastered from the tapes, they accurately capture the entire sound wave. It's all moot to the discussion of any additional artifacts or eq rolling inherent to the media. The point is, no one running the show gives a shit about production anymore. Things like the Pono prove that there is a market for well engineered and mastered music and the means to listen to it.
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
Edited by - johnnyribcage on 03/21/2014 13:07:12 |
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matto
= Cult of Ray =
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2014 : 03:31:10
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I find this all fascinating, and wish I were versed in mastering. I'd be curious to know the production/post production factoids, if they can ever be gleaned from interviews or something. For starters, were the new tracks all recorded to drives or to tapes? Also I'd love to know what FB/BF releases were digitally recorded as well.
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baby poop, curry |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2014 : 04:07:25
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| Certainly none of the Catholics stuff recorded at Sound City was digital. |
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matto
= Cult of Ray =
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2014 : 05:18:36
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was the catholics 'mobile recording studio' analog as well?
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baby poop, curry |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2014 : 06:47:51
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quote:
Originally posted by matto
was the catholics 'mobile recording studio' analog as well?
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baby poop, curry
Due to the lack of memory storage space in 2000, it must have been. I think that's one of the main reasons why people didn't like digital recording back then, and MP3s stank.
As for ultra high sampling - it is a total gimmick. I have never seen a person on earth distinguish between 192 and 48 khz. As I said before, if you want to make a greater audio experience, make everything 5.1 audio to give it a "live" feel.
Vinyl is fine, but overrated these days. All it has is more bass, which is nice. I also enjoy it (I have trompe, Doolittle on MOFI vinyl, EP1 and 2). As for clarity of the instruments, I hear far more on an SACD than vinyl (especially doolittle).
I have heard very good vinyl, and really awful vinyl releases. Same is true for CDs. |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2014 : 07:21:53
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| That being said, EP1 and EP2 both sound better on vinyl, for some reason. |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2014 : 12:41:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Champ
quote:
Originally posted by matto
was the catholics 'mobile recording studio' analog as well?
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baby poop, curry
Vinyl is fine, but overrated these days. All it has is more bass, which is nice. I also enjoy it (I have trompe, Doolittle on MOFI vinyl, EP1 and 2). As for clarity of the instruments, I hear far more on an SACD than vinyl (especially doolittle).
I have heard very good vinyl, and really awful vinyl releases. Same is true for CDs.
Devil is in the details for sure. I have some awful records that are mint. So much comes into play from the metal mastering to how old it is to where in the production run the vinyl was pressed. And of course, garbage in, garbage out (GIGO). My thoughts are that anything that was analogue to begin with translates to an exact replication of the original sound wave. It takes a killer system to bring everything to life though. If you have a cheap RCA record player hooked up to one of those shitty all in one things from Target, it's going to suck.
I keep looking into an SACD player but they seems so limited. I'm still debating. They do sound fantastic though, no doubt. From a transparency/sound stage point of view they may indeed eclipse vinyl. That goes back to that GIGO problem though. If you over engineered and blew up the mixdown to a solid block of sound, then the better the media and system, the worse it actually sounds because you can hear all the bullshit and artifacts that come along with over compression and dynamic limiting.
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2014 : 16:31:01
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By the way Champ, you said this on the other board:
"https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003614822/ponomusic-where-your-soul-rediscovers-music
Watch this for a good laugh. Notable moments - 6:30. I have seen similar reactions from people who wear the Qray bracelet. I am getting pretty sick of Neil Young's corporate greed.
Nevertheless, I am mildly intrigued to read a review from someone who isn't easily manipulated by the power of suggestion.
I can almost guarantee that any difference in sound was due to a glorified EQ, not worth 400 dollars."
You realize the people you're saying are being fooled by glorified EQ are professional musicians and producers who have heard and performed more music that you and I are likely to hear in our entire lives, right? Here's a partial list of people in that video gushing over sound quality who would know better than anyone when they're hearing something and when they're not...
David Crosby, Norah Jones, Eddie Vedder, Stephen Stills, Rick Fucking Rubin, Duane Eddy, Tom Fucking Petty, Sting, Arcade Fire, Flea, James Taylor, Dave Grohl, Elvis Costello, Mike D, Chris Robinson, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Emmylou Harris, My Morning Jacket, Beck, T Bone Burnett, Don Was...
The list goes on and on. It ain’t just Neil Young. I think the 'underwater listening' is a pretty damn effective analogy.
Just think what this kind of ethos would do to the sound of the EPs were they to be remastered correctly for an upcoming album or something.
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
Edited by - johnnyribcage on 03/22/2014 21:36:05 |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2014 : 23:49:18
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@johnnyribcage: I think we share the same opinion on the pono thing... As I already explained it in the interview thread, I won't retype everything here. Pono is a nice thing, but does not bring anything new, except maybe the access to previously unreleased high quality studio masters... (And the fact that some people are caring about sound quality...)
My point about vinyl was a critic against some esoteric allegations that described the pono thing as some magic device... "Like a good vinyl turntable", blah blah... Which is of course pure bullshit.
Ep2 / ep1 compression/mastering is a different topic. I think almost everything was said in other threads. Even people who don't care about music quality are having serious headaches listening to those (otherwise awesome) records.... So we are waiting for a proper listenable version, which will probably never see the light of day...
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"Service Unavailable" |
Edited by - picpic on 03/22/2014 23:52:23 |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2014 : 04:25:02
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
By the way Champ, you said this on the other board:
"https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003614822/ponomusic-where-your-soul-rediscovers-music
Watch this for a good laugh. Notable moments - 6:30. I have seen similar reactions from people who wear the Qray bracelet. I am getting pretty sick of Neil Young's corporate greed.
Nevertheless, I am mildly intrigued to read a review from someone who isn't easily manipulated by the power of suggestion.
I can almost guarantee that any difference in sound was due to a glorified EQ, not worth 400 dollars."
You realize the people you're saying are being fooled by glorified EQ are professional musicians and producers who have heard and performed more music that you and I are likely to hear in our entire lives, right? Here's a partial list of people in that video gushing over sound quality who would know better than anyone when they're hearing something and when they're not...
David Crosby, Norah Jones, Eddie Vedder, Stephen Stills, Rick Fucking Rubin, Duane Eddy, Tom Fucking Petty, Sting, Arcade Fire, Flea, James Taylor, Dave Grohl, Elvis Costello, Mike D, Chris Robinson, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Emmylou Harris, My Morning Jacket, Beck, T Bone Burnett, Don Was...
The list goes on and on. It ain’t just Neil Young. I think the 'underwater listening' is a pretty damn effective analogy.
Just think what this kind of ethos would do to the sound of the EPs were they to be remastered correctly for an upcoming album or something.
"A word to the wise is infuriating."
Sorry Johnny, but successful musicians are a lot of things, but they don't have the personality type that I would every call "skeptical". They just aren't. Neil Young going on about MP3s are like being underwater and 192KHz being above water is easily the dumbest thing I have ever heard him say. Ecosystems?? Common. Young probably can't even hear tones above 9Khz at this point.
Successful musicians will sell you just about anything they can, including an overpriced music players. The power of suggestion is a very blinding thing. The devil is in the details. Hell, most people would have been had this reaction due to the placebo effect. Also, I bet every single person who was interviewed has significant hearing loss. Like I said, I will wait for the reviews from those who aren't taking a cut. Notice how people with hearing loss tend to turn down treble and turn up the bass and they think it sounds amazing? Expect Pono to be low end heavy. |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2014 : 04:27:49
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| My record player is only a Sony you can find for 150 bucks or so. I would be surprised if a really good one would make much of a difference. |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2014 : 05:27:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Champ
My record player is only a Sony you can find for 150 bucks or so. I would be surprised if a really good one would make much of a difference.
Well it sounds like you land on the side of the fence that equipment really doesn't matter much, and typically it's not possible to convince someone otherwise that's definitely not the case. I've been through a few turntables in my day, and I can tell you (along with the stylus - hands down the most important part) it makes a massive, massive difference. The second most important thing are the speakers. A really good set is like taking a blanket off the stereo that you never knew was there. But you wouldn't believe me I guess, and that's cool.
I do have some hearing loss and I find myself turning up the treble actually. It's all relative though. Regardless of my level of hearing, I hear everything relative to my own hearing.
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2014 : 06:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
quote:
Originally posted by The Champ
My record player is only a Sony you can find for 150 bucks or so. I would be surprised if a really good one would make much of a difference.
Well it sounds like you land on the side of the fence that equipment really doesn't matter much, and typically it's not possible to convince someone otherwise that's definitely not the case. I've been through a few turntables in my day, and I can tell you (along with the stylus - hands down the most important part) it makes a massive, massive difference. The second most important thing are the speakers. A really good set is like taking a blanket off the stereo that you never knew was there. But you wouldn't believe me I guess, and that's cool.
I do have some hearing loss and I find myself turning up the treble actually. It's all relative though. Regardless of my level of hearing, I hear everything relative to my own hearing.
"A word to the wise is infuriating."
I think equipment matters a great deal actually. My speakers are about 300$ each, and I have a good 80w Sony receiver. The record player is on the low end, however.
I was thinking about buying the polk audio tsi500s, but I am not convinced they would sound much better as I haven't demoed them ever. |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2014 : 04:53:12
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Don't buy large speakers if you have a normal-sized listening room. You'll never be able to hear their full potential. That's a common mistake. If you listen at "normal" levels, good little bookshelf speakers + active subwoofer can be a nice combination. I know most "audiophiles" don't like 2.1-based hi-fi systems, but the implementation is far more simple than large bass-reflex floorstanding speakers.
I have Cabasse Iroise 500 + Yamaha A-S2000 / CD-S2000 system (here http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4374/installyamaha.jpg :D). That's a great setup, but only gives its full potential at high volume. Which is always difficult to achieve (neighbours,...)
At normal listening volume, I like to use my little active Focal CMS-40 speakers. They are connected to my computer through a Cambridge Dacmagic, and they sound really good & dynamic. Very transparent speakers, too (they are designed for monitoring usage).
Also have some old Celestion Ditton 66 speakers, which are just marvellous on old-school rock 'n roll.
PS: EP1 / EP2 sound like crap on all those speakers  . I think the most important part of a hi-fi setup is... the engineer who mixed/masterd the music you're listening to...
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"Service Unavailable" |
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pixie punk
> Teenager of the Year <
2923 Posts |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2014 : 18:08:05
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I don't really think I've noticed it and rarely use headphones but I remember reading about the Loudness War(s) years back, seeing people show images of "brickwalling" and am still puzzled as to why they do it and am against it on principle. Heck, maybe it has effected my listening of certain albums without me being aware of it.
We all know how to work the volume, if I want to hear it louder I should just be able to turn it up; I don't need the base level of a song to be LOUD.
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2014 : 03:12:42
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quote:
Originally posted by picpic
Don't buy large speakers if you have a normal-sized listening room. You'll never be able to hear their full potential. That's a common mistake. If you listen at "normal" levels, good little bookshelf speakers + active subwoofer can be a nice combination. I know most "audiophiles" don't like 2.1-based hi-fi systems, but the implementation is far more simple than large bass-reflex floorstanding speakers.
I have Cabasse Iroise 500 + Yamaha A-S2000 / CD-S2000 system (here http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4374/installyamaha.jpg :D). That's a great setup, but only gives its full potential at high volume. Which is always difficult to achieve (neighbours,...)
At normal listening volume, I like to use my little active Focal CMS-40 speakers. They are connected to my computer through a Cambridge Dacmagic, and they sound really good & dynamic. Very transparent speakers, too (they are designed for monitoring usage).
Also have some old Celestion Ditton 66 speakers, which are just marvellous on old-school rock 'n roll.
PS: EP1 / EP2 sound like crap on all those speakers . I think the most important part of a hi-fi setup is... the engineer who mixed/masterd the music you're listening to...
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"Service Unavailable"
That is an expensive system. It better be worth it!
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2014 : 12:20:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Champ
That is an expensive system. It better be worth it!
It sounds great on great sounding albums. It sounds like shit on shitty sounding albums like EP1/EP2/EP3... Unfortunately, most modern albums sounds like shit... So, if you like modern bands, just don't put any money on hi-fi gear. This is definitely not worth it.
Been listening to "The Wall" on my Celestion speakers a few times this week. Wow. What an amazing sounding album. Unfortunately, those days are gone... sigh...
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"Service Unavailable" |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2014 : 08:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by picpic
Don't buy large speakers if you have a normal-sized listening room. You'll never be able to hear their full potential. That's a common mistake. If you listen at "normal" levels, good little bookshelf speakers + active subwoofer can be a nice combination. I know most "audiophiles" don't like 2.1-based hi-fi systems, but the implementation is far more simple than large bass-reflex floorstanding speakers.
I have Cabasse Iroise 500 + Yamaha A-S2000 / CD-S2000 system (here http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4374/installyamaha.jpg :D). That's a great setup, but only gives its full potential at high volume. Which is always difficult to achieve (neighbours,...)
At normal listening volume, I like to use my little active Focal CMS-40 speakers. They are connected to my computer through a Cambridge Dacmagic, and they sound really good & dynamic. Very transparent speakers, too (they are designed for monitoring usage).
Also have some old Celestion Ditton 66 speakers, which are just marvellous on old-school rock 'n roll.
PS: EP1 / EP2 sound like crap on all those speakers . I think the most important part of a hi-fi setup is... the engineer who mixed/masterd the music you're listening to...
___
"Service Unavailable"
Nice! Those speakers would be a bit much for my listening room. I have Monitor Audio BX2's with a Yamaha Powered Sub SW315 rounding out the bottom. Stereo is a Marantz 2275 from 1976, and a Technics MK1200 Turntable with a Denon DL-110 Moving Coil Cartridge. Nothing beats that vintage power.
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
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EP Mastering/Fidelity Sounding Board
