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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2006 : 17:06:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Shastasheen
one other thing, steel is not destroyed by fire. it melts at 3000 F + temperatures which was NOT the case with the jet fuel fire in the WTC buildings (do the research).
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
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Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidenceas well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapsesupport this sequence for each tower."
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_1253.shtml
The steel doesn't have to melt in order for the building to collapse. (I did the research) This is more the pancake theory
""The claims that the explosions and fires would not have generated enough heat to cause the building to collapse are nonsense," Partin told THE NEW AMERICAN. "Steel doesn't have to 'melt' as some of these people claim. The yield strength of steel drops very dramatically under heat, and the impact of the airliners would have severely impacted the support columns. When they could no longer support the upper stories and the top started coming down, the dynamic loading caused a very rapid collapse, or 'pancaking,' that would have very nearly approached free-fall rate. No demolition charges were needed to accomplish this."
Edward Peik, vice president of Alpine Environmental, Inc. of Chelmsford, Mass., agrees. Peik, a civil engineer, with 40 years of engineering experience in government and industry, grew up in New York City and is familiar with the structure of the Twin Towers. "I was at home watching all of this unfold on TV" on 9/11, he told The New American. "My first reaction was, 'My God, they've got to get everybody out of there right away, because it's going to come down fast!' I called my son Ron, who is also an engineer. We were both beside ourselves because we knew that they wouldn't stay up very long. As soon as fire hits steel, it loses strength fast and those towers had relatively lightweight steel beams spanning large distances. The building was supported by the steel outer walls. When the upper part of the building started coming down, the floors below could not support the weight crashing down on them. It was a vertical domino effect."
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Edited by - Little Black Francis on 09/12/2006 17:32:08 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 17:40:44
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It doesn't have to melt, but it _did_ melt. And while the outer walls were not very strong, that is because the buildings were designed around a very solid and stable core. This, at the very least, should've largely remained standing, certainly one would expect above three or four stories. If the steel didn't melt (and again, it is documented by conspiracists and government alike that it did) then it would bend given the temperature and that means no straight down collapse.
I'll have to look up some steel curves because I keep hearing opposing views on strength vs temperature.
Again, I'm not advocating they were brought down by explosives. If it was, it would have to have been an inside job and the government involved, and while they have expressed their willingness to pull off this sort of thing in declassified documents (relating to Cuba around the time of JFK) I have trouble believing it. What I would like is an end to misdirection from all these media and government outlets and a straight fact-for-fact matchup of theory and explanation.
 "Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 18:09:43
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Yeah, I've been reading about this all day. I would have to say Dean you are on the expert side, you know a lot more about physics than your average frank black fan. I'm not ready to believe there was a conspiracy, even after reading some tantalizing points. I guess I was kind of an asshole earlier too, I'm sorry. As you said, we'll never know for certain how those buildings came down. I think the internet has defintely made conspiracy theories proliferate more than they would have been 20 years ago. I was kind of surprised to read how many people in new york in a poll voted that it was some kind of conspiracy, it was over 40%. I defintely am willing to consider both sides, even though I'm nowhere near changing my opinion, but I don't care to hear from conspiracy theorists who aren't willing to admit that don't know the answers either.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 18:43:28
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No apology needed to me, I wasn't the least offended. And I wouldn't call myself an expert. I _am_ an engineer and obviously have done my share of math and physics and even materials science, but I'm still not a structural engineer or even a civil engineer. Just an interested scientist, I guess... I'm glad we can agree there are a lot of unanswered questions.
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
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Shastasheen
- FB Fan -
62 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 00:26:49
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I Guess We'll Never Know
Kudos Dean n' Fran
When History's A Mystery
Life Is Grand!
They Live
We Sleep
The Facade
All I am are my thoughts, I am all what I'm not |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 00:27:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
I donīt give a ratīs ass what theories youīre willing to amuse, all I was saying was I donīt share the popular view that the attacks were entirely perpetrated by brown people.
p.s. I donīt see what naming some Googled Spanish or Tobagan landmarks has to do with me, if people are murdered en masse Iīm not keen on it no matter what landmass their parents happened to fuck on.
Basically, I take this as you saying I am a racist and ignorantly patriotic. I'm saying you might take this a little more personally if it happened in the country in which you are a citizen (or the land in which your parents fucked, however obtrusively you detail citizenship). With every major catastrope there is always a slew of conspricists who seem to be against the mainstream belief just for the sake of rebelling. People who are unwilling to consider all the evidence, and would rather talk shit. In order for something to be true there has to be opposition. What gets me is the majority of the conspiricists just seem to delight in the fact they are a rebelling. Maybe that's not you, but that's why I can't stand them as a whole. Sure I am a bit biased, and a bit of an asshole myself, I get a bit defensive about it because rarely does someone prevent a counter argument without telling you that you are wrong. I'm sure you could give a rat's ass, and I'm sorry, but I guess it's a worthless point anyway. I just wanted to say that. ~peace
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Shastasheen
- FB Fan -
62 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 00:48:07
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Hey LBF, we are all pretty intelligent people, we like frank black, but you definately started the thread going the way it did with your first post, with that said, never stop asking why and never stop rebelling, but be a rebel with a cause and get the answers you deserve, till then, one heart
All I am are my thoughts, I am all what I'm not |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 07:57:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Shastasheen
till then, one heart
All I am are my thoughts, I am all what I'm not
one love
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 08:07:15
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I think David Copperfield is responsible for the Twin Towers going away. Come on! Magic tricks don't always work!
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His name is Dalton. He's got a degree in philosophy.
-bRIAN |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 08:15:26
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james blunt dude, i'm telling ya
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 08:44:19
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| james smoked a blunt? what?? lol. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 11:21:05
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quote:
Little Black Francis Posted - 09/13/2006 : 00:27:29
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quote:
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Originally posted by Newo
I donīt give a ratīs ass what theories youīre willing to amuse, all I was saying was I donīt share the popular view that the attacks were entirely perpetrated by brown people.
p.s. I donīt see what naming some Googled Spanish or Tobagan landmarks has to do with me, if people are murdered en masse Iīm not keen on it no matter what landmass their parents happened to fuck on.
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Basically, I take this as you saying I am a racist and ignorantly patriotic. I'm saying you might take this a little more personally if it happened in the country in which you are a citizen (or the land in which your parents fucked, however obtrusively you detail citizenship). With every major catastrope there is always a slew of conspricists who seem to be against the mainstream belief just for the sake of rebelling. People who are unwilling to consider all the evidence, and would rather talk shit. In order for something to be true there has to be opposition. What gets me is the majority of the conspiricists just seem to delight in the fact they are a rebelling. Maybe that's not you, but that's why I can't stand them as a whole. Sure I am a bit biased, and a bit of an asshole myself, I get a bit defensive about it because rarely does someone prevent a counter argument without telling you that you are wrong. I'm sure you could give a rat's ass, and I'm sorry, but I guess it's a worthless point anyway. I just wanted to say that. ~peace
Iīm not calling you a rascist, just saying what does or doesnīt resonate with me. One thing which doesnīt is the notion of citizenry, sorry to use an expression as trite as "people are people" but just the idea of differentiating between people because of where theyīre from, it kindof passes right through me without getting stuck on the way. Iīve been thinking about this a while, I grew up partly in Northern Ireland and later moved to a county just south of the border where patriotism is a little more rife than usual, it had always made me queasy to be around people eulogising Irish martyrs and demonising English folk so I removed myself from emoting over differences between nationalities.
When I was 7, a shopping district of a town me and my family used to spend Saturdays at was bombed one Saturday we happened to have something else to do, perhaps Iīm weird but I canīt take something like that any more or less personally than the same thing happening to someone in Bali or Madrid or Oklahoma or wherever. Weīre all the same if you turn us inside out.
Of my comment about blaming the attacks on brown people, I was referring to I find the tone of the governmental news a little too hysterical in making monsters out of Arabs (which is itself a hopelessly vague term) as the major source of the worldīs ills. All I have to do is look at how cops case my Morroccan friends longer than anyone else to see how opinions offered by the news filter down and manifest themselves in peopleīs behaviour on the street. I donīt mean to get all starryeyed and say everyone from Middle East or N Africa is a saint - thatīd be as ridiculous as saying the inverse - just 60 years ago a large part of Europe was convinced there was a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world so we can see exactly where blaming one ethnic group exclusively for a problem can lead.
I agree that many people keen on conspiracies treat them as a type of junkfood, just another kick to be had instead of something borne of a genuine concern about the state of the planet, you know like What can I play with now, aliens? pharmaceutical companies? masons on the moon? Fascination is itself a form of being controlled, which is why the more slavering of conspiracy fans arenīt any better or worse than those suckered in by official newscasts.
What does get my attention is the way the term "conspiracy theory" has gained dirty-word status. Unless you were actually aboard one of those four flights five years ago, anything you might have to offer as to the identity of the culprits is a theory about the conspiring that took place. Lately Iīve been shying away from theorising, Iīm more into listening to what people tell me and looking for patterns. I did believe the official conspiracy theory of 19 Saudis with paper-knives masterminded by a guy in a Middle Eastern cave at first but felt my hackles go up when I heard the crime scene had been hustled away and destroyed in a few weeks - the very least thing that happens after such an attack is youīre finely picking through the wreckage for the next decade. Thatīs just one little thing in a pattern made it hard for me to hold the official story as viable, but if people donīt believe anything that comes out of my mouth, thatīs cool, anyway I have more fun with people when I remove the clutter of my expectations of how they should behave.
Be well and scuse the eyeball-drying ramble,
Owen
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Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 11:27:56
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quote:
Angry Elvis Posted - 09/12/2006 : 14:26:49
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quote:
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I donīt give a ratīs ass what theories youīre willing to amuse
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newo, i'm ready to entertain the theory that you're an incredibly pretentious twit
***i'm just a hunka hunka burnin love***
itīs usually a pleasure to read what you type and though I know you give fair warning with your forum name, mister if youīre getting angry over the opinion of someone youīve never met might I recommend drinking 6-8 large glasses of water a day.
edit: p.s. not tapwater, if you magnify it a few thousand times itīs hard to tell apart from sewage.
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Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
Edited by - Newo on 09/13/2006 11:29:41 |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 21:45:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
How long until someone posts a conspiracy theory in this topic? I fucking hate that shit. Find something better to do.
Exactly...like 9/11 being tied with Saddam Hussein, Saddam having nukes or other WMDS, and 'shit' like that. ;)
 "Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 22:09:04
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What the fuck is that shit?
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 22:23:53
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I think he was trying to say that people who didn't accept the government's views on those items were called conspiracy theorists, too.
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 22:43:17
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I was trying to be funny, i guess it didn't work...
I guess I should have put a ;) or [/sarcasm] thing but that kind of ruins it for me
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 22:46:06
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Why you got to post when I am deleting and re-posting??? ;) 
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 23:42:09
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What? That made no sense to me. I must be tired-er that you, or... you hate me 
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2006 : 08:24:39
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Why you got to post when I am deleting and re-posting??? ;)
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 20:43:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
What the fuck is that shit?
Exactly!!!
Yes, i am applying a little 'reverse-Colbert' one might say. ;)
"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 11:18:28
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| for anyone who hasn't seen it, I highly recommend "911 Press for Truth" - the most level-headed treatment of the unanswered questions, and the struggle to get a thorough investigation and accountability, from the viewpoint of 9/11 victims' families. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 11:55:12
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Thanks!
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
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HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 12:50:39
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_______________________________________________________________________________________
"My name is Doug and I'm outta hhhhheeeere." |
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1594 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 15:30:32
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| I've always imagined OJ coming home, hands in a karate posture, pleading, "Not now Kato!" |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 19:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
for anyone who hasn't seen it, I highly recommend "911 Press for Truth" - the most level-headed treatment of the unanswered questions, and the struggle to get a thorough investigation and accountability, from the viewpoint of 9/11 victims' families.
I'd never seen it, it was definitely compelling. I wasn't quite sure what is being "covered up," is it that the Bush administration made an ignorant error and they were trying to make it look like it wasn't their fault? Or were they direcetly involved in it for some sort of gain? I still find it unfathomable to think the Bush adminstration would intentionally plot 9/11, more concievable that they dropped the ball, and then refused to admit it. I wish I knew the answers. The documentary did not go into any detail about the actual towers themselves, concerning explosives or anything radical like that. Anyways, thanks Aply.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 19:53:43
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For that stuff, Andy, check out Loose Change 2: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726
It's an interesting watch the whole way through although I feel it could've been put together better and without some of the more wild and unsubstantiated parts, but if you want to see the bits on the buildings' collapse specifically, start around the 30:15 mark.
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 21:24:49
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You're welcome, Dean and Andy. Info is hard to find amid the morass of politics, mis/disinformation, and propaganda (on all sides).
For an in-depth, intriguing look at some interesting facts, with cited media sources:
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html
Here is Paul Thompson's "Complete 911 Timeline"
I was in the middle of a long explanation of my approach to deciphering what's going on, and then realized that there is no better argument in this case than to just point to the above gathering of facts and further research, and to encourage anyone with an itch to understand, to keep digging. I think that it's probably important to keep your mind open as to the possibilities. Conspiracy happens all the time, it's only sometimes that it becomes public, or is an easy sell for an audience. I don't trust any of our administrations (I don't believe in the left/right dichotomy anymore), or our government as a whole, and I believe that is healthy. It's unfortunately our duty to hold them to account and it starts with self-education. A free press has never really existed, but there are bits of useful information that can be pulled.
see "Operation Northwoods" (and other similar plans, successful and scrapped, that I can't remember at the moment, but if you are curious I'll get back to you), as precedent for conspiracies by government or agencies of it, or from outside.
The short of it is, something was and is terribly wrong, and for whatever reason, they aren't telling the full story. That's not acceptable, and there needs to be accountability. Seems to me, this isn't as simple as just oil, or just strategic resources/military bases, international corporations' interests, or keeping the iron triangle happy. And it's not just Right vs. Left. Far from it.
I've had a chronic illness for the last couple years, so I've had a lot of ...time on my hands for research, and it still isn't enough. Bush's advisor may be right, they may be quite capable of writing our history for us, while we're still looking back and wondering, wtf just happened? |
Edited by - apl4eris on 09/17/2006 21:37:16 |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 22:33:16
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with a right and a left i will brake your neck just as eyes that are bright over looked
stories small from within solved or sold through the din
was the time and the take that it took.
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 23:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
For that stuff, Andy, check out Loose Change 2: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726
Wow. I'm feeling more and more like an idiot for offering the straight laced case. I would like to see a video presenting the opposing view of these 2, but the fact that there really aren't as many kind of makes the point that there was something very wrong about it. I don't know how I feel/think about it anymore. Sure it's been 5 years, I feel bad, but I haven't taken this much time really learing about it. I have a hard time questioning what I don't want to believe, and it's opening my mind while at the same time making me feel totally insecure about myself. I'm ready for the next video if someone wants to slide one my way.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 00:55:14
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Well, don't take it as verbatim truth by any stretch, but that you're not certain means you're thinking and that's always a good thing. :) There's a lot of stuff in there that doesn't wash completely or in some cases at all, but also a lot of interesting stuff that does. I don't know of any videos but here's some reading where one critic breaks it down line by line that might be of interest: http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/index.html
The main thing that gets me is the buildings collapsing. Especially bldg. 7. It just doesn't add up.
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 18:58:24
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Apl - so nice to see you! =)
Yeah, i'm glad the 'conspiracy' people are getting some validation. I certainly don't believe it all, but there are some really good questions posed...
I'm curious to how some of the folks who used to totally dismiss these ideas are reacting now..? Where are they?!
"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 20:00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Apl - so nice to see you! =)
I'm curious to how some of the folks who used to totally dismiss these ideas are reacting now..? Where are they?!
"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been
I'm right here, it only took me 5 years.
nice signature you post whore |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 02:49:36
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after watching the videos you might want to look at some sites, such as 911review.com (which generally makes points against the official story but also criticises videos such as loose change http://911review.com/disinfo/videos.html)
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 09/19/2006 02:54:32 |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 04:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Apl - so nice to see you! =)
I'm curious to how some of the folks who used to totally dismiss these ideas are reacting now..? Where are they?!
"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been
Yeah where is Erebus?
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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9/11 ~ 5 year Anniv.
