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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
 Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:15:50
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quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
In the Middle East, they have had a culture of animosity, acrimony, strife, violence and all the rest for x number of years (fill in the x with the appropriate large number). Try telling a soccer mom to give up her SUV. Try telling the equivalent in the Middle East the equivalent thing to change. Not so easy.
he's back jack smoking crack find him if you want to get found
A bit harsh, i bet there are many many peaceful places in the middle east. IRAQ is in shit at the present, agreed. And even if it does eventually get fixed the ends don't justify the means and never will.
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:22:20
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Uh, yeah, definitely I could see Iran using nuclear weapons for a variety of reasons, one among them potentially nuking Israel, if they had them, while I can't imagine the U.S. using them for anything other than retaliation. Although I'm not saying a nuclear war is impossible, the prospect of such a thing seems to keep most of the major world powers (yes, the "adults") from confronting each other directly. (i.e. the Cold War.) Smaller nations, oftentimes run by extremist individual with a particular beef with another nation, seem to be much more likely to use nuclear weapons as a show of force. I don't know Iran as a nation well enough to make the assessment that that is what they'd do. But, would I have thought it was okay for Saddam Hussein's regime to have nuclear weapons? Hell no. I can't even completely trust what my own government does with nuclear weapons, I sure as hell don't want to have to rely on the discretion of a leader with a personal grudge against another country.
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 12:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
In the Middle East, they have had a culture of animosity, acrimony, strife, violence and all the rest for x number of years (fill in the x with the appropriate large number). Try telling a soccer mom to give up her SUV. Try telling the equivalent in the Middle East the equivalent thing to change. Not so easy.
he's back jack smoking crack find him if you want to get found
A bit harsh, i bet there are many many peaceful places in the middle east. IRAQ is in shit at the present, agreed. And even if it does eventually get fixed the ends don't justify the means and never will.
I don't see it as harsh. I'm sure there are peaceful places in the Middle East, just as there are people/communities in N. America which use public transit and the like. What I'm saying is I grew up in a country which has essentially known little if any war, strife and conflict, especially with neighbouring countries. I haven't been socialized to hate another group of people who have offended or desecreated me or my beliefs in some way. So its easy to sit back and feel superior because I'm so peaceful.
he's back jack smoking crack find him if you want to get found
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 12:13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Heh, perhaps. Let me ask you another question: could you see the US using nuclear weapons, aside from as a reaction to a nuclear attack?
 "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
I'll counter with another question:
could you see the Iran (assuming they get em) using nuclear weapons, aside from as a reaction to a nuclear attack?
I'll answer, I don't think the US would to be honest. But even if they don't, do you think they will invade Iran (or do you think that decision has been made)?
Truth be told, I could. I don't know if they'd just drop one on a whim someday, but if the eternal fighting with Israel/Palestine goes through a rough spot or there were to be a war with Iran, I could certainly see it.
I think if Iran were to back off and comply with the UN and IAEA like the rest of the world, then no, the US wouldn't go to war at least in the present. They're still too tied up in Iraq, and I don't think for a second that Iran is not aware of that. However, if diplomacy and sanctions fail, as they assuredly will, to dissuade Iran, then what are the options? Either let them go and hope they don't use it (which they, at the least, will certainly threaten to do) or else get in there and see to it that they don't.
Thankfully, this time I believe there would be a fairly large consensus that action is required rather than the US/UK flaunting international law to go to war with a country on a justification of utter fabricated bullshit. The world would be a more stable place if they hadn't been the aggressors there, and I strongly feel that either Iran would not be taking advantage of the US' exertion elsewhere or else would be dealt with already.
But back to your question, do I believe and did I believe that a US invasion of Iran was in the cards, yes, sooner or later, for one excuse or another. All part of their plan. But would it have been this year (and it will be this year)? Not likely. Doubtless Iran knows this too and wants something to threaten the US with to keep them out or at least make them think twice.
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:08:28
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I wonder how all of this will pan out. You've got half the commentators speculating that the U.S. is drawn too thin already, and that they will end up having to reinstate the draft, and then you've got the other half talking about war with Iran. Shitty timing, even for a war.
Signature censored by forum moderators. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:14:43
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Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
remember all that rot about Ashcroft's impending assualt on civil liberties? Oh no, they're going to be able to see what I check out of the library!!! And just whose liberties have been repressed? No, this is not about Bush, Ashcroft, or Rumsfeld.
Oy vey!
darwin: "How do you, a "libertarian", feel about the NSA tracking our phone calls?"
erebus: "I'm glad the adults are keeping us safe"
darwin: "Yes, they are quite a well organized and well planned bunch. Just what we want in a daddy."
First of all, I must say I just finishing watching "The Corn Is Green" - Bette Davis, Nigel Bruce, John Dall (1945), and it made me cry, more than once. Bette Davis was so vividly a genius that she makes me wonder why the rest of us aren't.
Now then, thanks darwin. Yes, that pretty much sums it. You're a man with a memory and I'm grateful. I glad someone is connecting the dots when it comes to communication among terrorists. And no, I don't fear the Bushies going hog-wild with telephonic eavesdropping, though I'm sure there are some pretty sad things yet to come to light. My main gripe is with USA Today, the NY Times, the Wash Post, and others being so cavalier with national security, presumably for simple partisan advantage, which is, mostly to say, to get the Dems back in the White House, in addition to shaming the hated Bush. Pretty sad, and yes, unamerican. No doubt they will ably cloak themselves in high principle.
“What a bargain: At a cost of a mere $100,000 or so, a northeastern college can take your child and transform him into a delicate flower incapable of handling opinions at odds with his own.” - Rich Lowry, National Review Online, May 23, 2006 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Yeah, I'm not sure there's much of a distinction between the "suspect everybody" regime and the "accuse everybody" regime.
Good point. Both have the effect of suppressing the discussions we will require to adequately address the challenges of the day, though I am concerned that "accuse" does target the hawkish whereas "suspect" tends more to inhibit the guilty. Perhaps not such a slight disctinction, though in regard to liberty the effect is quite similar.
“What a bargain: At a cost of a mere $100,000 or so, a northeastern college can take your child and transform him into a delicate flower incapable of handling opinions at odds with his own.” - Rich Lowry, National Review Online, May 23, 2006 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 15:06:41
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quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
There's a slight sense of paranoia from reading this!!
I know. I went to sleep thinking it made me sound crazy. I even thought about getting up to delete it but then just accepted that that's not how things are done. It's not so much paranoia over loss of liberty as it is concern over loss of the ability to discuss that which we most necessarily need to discuss. "We" being the world, not the forum, of course. Though I abhor any trumpetting of "Unity, Unity!", I am constantly confronted with how shut down things are. Europe vs. USA, USA vs. UN, Left vs. Right, Dem vs. Repub (with its political analogs in other Western nations), and of course Christendom vs. Islam. And I'm a part of it. I can hardly read a paragraph from the leftwing blogosphere without wanting to be anywhere else, all the while finding my National Review or InstaPundit beacons of clarity and light. And when I find my beloved forum overrun with nothing but the obligatorily subtle dissection of Frank and otherwise superficial fun with cultural minutia, I sometimes dispair over the elephants in the living room. God love Frank (ha! given the topic), but there are other issues, conspicuous in their absence, for the very intelligent fans here. So sometimes I panic, and seem "paranoid", as you say.
“What a bargain: At a cost of a mere $100,000 or so, a northeastern college can take your child and transform him into a delicate flower incapable of handling opinions at odds with his own.” - Rich Lowry, National Review Online, May 23, 2006 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 15:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
Not to turn this (further) into a discussion strictly about the Middle East, but I think, when comparing "our" (Western) society with their's, we often feel a sense of superiority as we deem ourselves much less violent, fanatical and irrational.
This last clause strikes me, and I know you too speedy m, because I can understand how the entire rest of the world can legitimately characterize us, at least historically, most especially the Anglo world, as the violent ones. So many disparate parts of the world speak English because the English Navy was so good at what it did. And in saying "English" I do not mean to exempt the American, or the Canadian, the Australian, the New Zealanders, or the South African. Certainly in the post-WWII America earned it's share of the blame/credit, if only because most of the West found itself on its backside. What a twisted, mixed pedigree. So many times I have wished we could have managed to leave Africa, Asia, and the Mideast alone, but that isn't how humans behave. Ever short-term profit uber alles! All of which is not to "discredit" the French, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese, Italians, Belgians, Dutch, Scandanavians or anyone else, so much as to say that the English Navy gained the seas and to a great extent our present. But, though "we" may understand the complaints of the world, "we" also may expect that in our place they might have done similarly, and that, whether or not they would have, "we" will not willingly have our throats slit. Or will "we"?
Though such views are standard in the textbooks, it's surprising how little they inform most pedestrian-level discussion, meaning, but not at all to slight, our own.
“What a bargain: At a cost of a mere $100,000 or so, a northeastern college can take your child and transform him into a delicate flower incapable of handling opinions at odds with his own.” - Rich Lowry, National Review Online, May 23, 2006 |
Edited by - Erebus on 05/25/2006 16:02:49 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 01:36:18
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Since I’m guilty of the last four posts here, why not five? I retire to what I would call my “music room” except that it actually is just the extra bedroom of a two bedroom apartment. With no agenda, and despite feeling guilty over playing too much Frank lately, I cue the New Orleans Tipatina July 3, ‘93 show, mostly because it has recently been praised here but also because I expect to confirm the praise. Not surprisingly, I do. Great sample of that tour with Santiago, Feldman, and Vincent. For continuity I follow with the Reading Festival August 26, ‘94 boot, and then a Cult of Ray/Oddballs compilation I made years ago. Obviously much fun was had. Funny how that works: one guy in a box listening to Frank Black and friends for three hours somehow manages to enjoy himself.
So I emerge to my Yahoo home page to find an Associated Press headline of “Bush and Blair acknowledge Iraq 'setbacks'”:
“In unusually introspective comments, Bush said he regretted his cowboy rhetoric after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks such as his "wanted dead or alive" description of Osama bin Laden and his taunting "bring 'em on" challenge to Iraqi insurgents.
"In certain parts of the world, it was misinterpreted."
He also cited the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners at the U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. "We've been paying for that for a long time," Bush said.
Blair regretted the way in which Saddam Hussein's political allies were expelled from the Iraqi military and government soon after the fall of Baghdad. Critics have said the purge left a security vacuum and encouraged former regime loyalists to take up arms against the newly installed government.
Blair also said allies seriously underestimated the strength and determination of the insurgency.
"It should have been very obvious to us" from the beginning, Blair said.”
What a couple of fucking tools! Of course it didn’t go as they expected, and of course the limp AP refers to Bush’s “rhetoric” as “cowboy”. I for one am glad Bush “taunted” the insurgents. Yes, bring them on to where they die, by what ratio? Ten to one target? More? Some called it the “flypaper” tactic, and they were right. Better we kill the murdering bastards in Iraq rather than here in our homes. Jesus Fuck, Bush: you don’t have a goddam thing to apologize for, unless you want to address your utter lack of fiscal frugality or your capitulaton on illegal immigration, but that’s an aside unless you also want to get into why we’re likely to soon be afflicted by another run of Dem “talk” and appeasement. Please do give me more involvement of the United Nations. Yeh, that’ll work! And Blair, everybody knows that if the Nazi’s had remained in power after WWII the Cold War would have shorter, but does that mean we SHOULD have done so? Please, even though you’re both a couple of professionall asskissers, try to take a stab at honor. Just because the press and the electorates of your respective nations, so long as they still deserve the term, have completely surrendered all sense of integrity, that doesn’t mean that you have to as well. Damn!
And of course the press can’t help but title the story to the effect that Bush and Blair “acknowledge” what all the numbnuts, present company excepted, expected from the beginning, but that’s a whole ‘nuther story. Talk about a “culture” that deserves what it gets! Sorry. Sorta. But this really pisses me off. Sometimes I actually wish this would actually get around to where it's going so politicians and press would have to start dealing with it for what it really is. As if!
“What a bargain: At a cost of a mere $100,000 or so, a northeastern college can take your child and transform him into a delicate flower incapable of handling opinions at odds with his own.” - Rich Lowry, National Review Online, May 23, 2006 |
Edited by - Erebus on 05/26/2006 01:42:08 |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 01:49:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Some called it the “flypaper” tactic, and they were right. Better we kill the murdering bastards in Iraq rather than here in our homes.
Maybe this thread is serving the same purpose. |
Edited by - darwin on 05/26/2006 01:51:43 |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 06:05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
I for one am glad Bush “taunted” the insurgents. Yes, bring them on to where they die, by what ratio? Ten to one target? More? Some called it the “flypaper” tactic, and they were right. Better we kill the murdering bastards in Iraq rather than here in our homes. Jesus Fuck, Bush: you don’t have a goddam thing to apologize for, unless you want to address your utter lack of fiscal frugality or your capitulaton on illegal immigration, but that’s an aside unless you also want to get into why we’re likely to soon be afflicted by another run of Dem “talk” and appeasement. Please do give me more involvement of the United Nations. Yeh, that’ll work! And Blair, everybody knows that if the Nazi’s had remained in power after WWII the Cold War would have shorter, but does that mean we SHOULD have done so? Please, even though you’re both a couple of professionall asskissers, try to take a stab at honor. Just because the press and the electorates of your respective nations, so long as they still deserve the term, have completely surrendered all sense of integrity, that doesn’t mean that you have to as well. Damn!
woh there!! your scaring me again Erebus!! The US come into their country and they try and kick the US out and you say "kill the murdering bastards". No "Weapons of mass destruction". Iraq had nothing to do with 911 etc. Unless you mention it enough in the press in the same sentences.
In Ireland, we fought against England from 1918-1921 using bloody guerilla warfare tactics (we had been part of the british emprire for 700 years before). Michael Collins is a national hero, although he orchastrated the murder of many many GI men sent over from britian in cold blood etc. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 08:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Some called it the “flypaper” tactic, and they were right. Better we kill the murdering bastards in Iraq rather than here in our homes.
Maybe this thread is serving the same purpose.
That's funny, and I can't say I don't deserve it. Sometimes I am as unhinged as I think the world is becoming. Is that irrational? Wait: don't answer.
“What a bargain: At a cost of a mere $100,000 or so, a northeastern college can take your child and transform him into a delicate flower incapable of handling opinions at odds with his own.” - Rich Lowry, National Review Online, May 23, 2006 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 09:27:10
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quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
I for one am glad Bush “taunted” the insurgents. Yes, bring them on to where they die, by what ratio? Ten to one target? More? Some called it the “flypaper” tactic, and they were right. Better we kill the murdering bastards in Iraq rather than here in our homes. Jesus Fuck, Bush: you don’t have a goddam thing to apologize for, unless you want to address your utter lack of fiscal frugality or your capitulaton on illegal immigration, but that’s an aside unless you also want to get into why we’re likely to soon be afflicted by another run of Dem “talk” and appeasement. Please do give me more involvement of the United Nations. Yeh, that’ll work! And Blair, everybody knows that if the Nazi’s had remained in power after WWII the Cold War would have shorter, but does that mean we SHOULD have done so? Please, even though you’re both a couple of professionall asskissers, try to take a stab at honor. Just because the press and the electorates of your respective nations, so long as they still deserve the term, have completely surrendered all sense of integrity, that doesn’t mean that you have to as well. Damn!
woh there!! your scaring me again Erebus!! The US come into their country and they try and kick the US out and you say "kill the murdering bastards". No "Weapons of mass destruction". Iraq had nothing to do with 911 etc. Unless you mention it enough in the press in the same sentences.
In Ireland, we fought against England from 1918-1921 using bloody guerilla warfare tactics (we had been part of the british emprire for 700 years before). Michael Collins is a national hero, although he orchastrated the murder of many many GI men sent over from britian in cold blood etc.
As goes that old song by a group most here probably never heard of, Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks, "I Scare Myself".
I spend a large portion of each day in a sector of the blogosphere where people still believe the weapons of mass destruction were moved to Syria during that seemingly interminable period when the UN gave Saddam "warning" after "warning". I am one of those people. And when I am not believing that, I recall that almost everybody, across the entire political spectrum in basically every Western nation, was convinced that Saddam had such weapons. These same people, again including myself, believe that though Saddam was not directly involved in the 911 plot, he was a significant part of that den, providing logistical and material support for Bin Ladin's terrorist brigade for years. But I admit that I really don't concern myself too much with justifications for the intervention in Iraq, just as I likely will not if something similar comes to pass in Iran. The invasion of Iraq was long overdue and it was about time the entire region was destabilized, because that decades-long stability, such as it was, was being used to construct a credible threat against the civilization, for all its faults, that has given us the leisure to debate such things.
I sympathize with the Irish struggle against the empire, just as I do with the American revolutionaries, but in neither case did those guerrillas indiscriminately slaughter innocent civilians simply going about their daily business. I think it's different, and so I call them murderers. I think the average Iraqi is glad the US, Britain, and others invaded, for all that they have suffered as a result. Things are going well over there, much better than the press will ever admit, and would be going even better if the murderers were not being supplied by Iran, if the press didn't daily reward the murderers by casting every casualty as a referendum on the war, and if Bush and Blair could somehow conduct a press conference without dishonoring the blood of our soldiers.
(Sorry my posts go on so long. I really don't start out intending that, but then I get going, and then I add all these commas, and then there you have it.)
“What a bargain: At a cost of a mere $100,000 or so, a northeastern college can take your child and transform him into a delicate flower incapable of handling opinions at odds with his own.” - Rich Lowry, National Review Online, May 23, 2006 |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 09:38:44
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quote:
I think the average Iraqi is glad the US, Britain, and others invaded, for all that they have suffered as a result.
That´s the kind of thing you need to hear from the mouth of an Iraqi, and I´m going to speak for the only person I´m qualified to speak for. You said you feel (in a post a few months ago, correct me if I´m wrong) the route taken is a lesser or necessary evil, I´d probably feel that way if I hadn´t noticed the pattern that after every war there´s a little less democracy to fight for. Perhaps I´m overtly influenced by where I grew up, just when someone is waving a gun around I´m more inclined to look to someone else for exchange of ideas on what is best for the planet.
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Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
Edited by - Newo on 05/26/2006 09:44:56 |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 15:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Some called it the “flypaper” tactic, and they were right. Better we kill the murdering bastards in Iraq rather than here in our homes.
Maybe this thread is serving the same purpose.
That's funny, and I can't say I don't deserve it. Sometimes I am as unhinged as I think the world is becoming. Is that irrational? Wait: don't answer.
Thanks, it was too funny to pass up. I think you and I are better off not discussing politics with each other. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2006 : 00:12:30
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I still like you, darwin, if you'll forgive me for saying so. After all, we'll always have Richard Dawkins, even if we do somehow depart from there on inexplicably divergent paths.
Since there are probably still a few of us attending this thread, half of whom can actually stomach reading what must be contrary to their normal diet, on the cusp of this American Memorial Day Weekend, I must share with you the following essay, which, yet again, did in fact cause me to cry upon reading it [and now again, after re-reading it to preview my posting of it. call me a fool, but despite everything I do actually love this country], by Victor Davis Hanson, "Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, Professor Emeritus at California State University , Fresno , and a nationally syndicated columnist for Tribune Media Services" [per his website], and, I must add, frequent contributor to National Review Online:
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson052606.html
Private Papers
www.victorhanson.com
May 26, 2006
Looking Back at Iraq
A war to be proud of.
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online
edit: I removed the text and left the link. The essay is not that long but it did seem too big here as a single post.
“What a bargain: At a cost of a mere $100,000 or so, a northeastern college can take your child and transform him into a delicate flower incapable of handling opinions at odds with his own.” - Rich Lowry, National Review Online, May 23, 2006 |
Edited by - Erebus on 05/27/2006 11:21:26 |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2006 : 04:02:59
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Funny how political dialogue still keeps people focused on rivalries between countries when most of their governments were bankrupted and had to sign on the dotted line to financialhouses during World War II. Talking about America v. Russia v. Europe or anything like that is a geopolitical map long since dispappeared and when I hear somebody using these terms it´s like they´re waxing their handlebar moustache and talking about the perfidy of those Damn Austro-Hungarians.
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Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
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Holy Fingers
- FB Fan -
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2006 : 07:56:16
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I am pleased to see the direction in which this thread has alligned itself.
 REMEMBER THIS: Nowhere in history has an atheist taken a human life in the name of his cause. |
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Jesus H. Christ
