| Author |
 Topic  |
|
jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2006 : 05:17:03
|
This is a continuation of the religious debate from last week.
I thought I'd start off with some sweeping generalizations.
The Bible is a mix of basic historical records and mythology. For instance, I'm sure there was a big flood, but the rain wasn't caused by a magical man in the sky who made a rainbow afterwards.
There are some religious people who are decent people- these are the ones who use it as, what people have called, an opiate. For instance, a couple whose child dies might use religion as a comforting idea that allows them to believe they'll see their child again in Heaven.
Then there are the people who go to church and think they're good people even though they don't behave acording to what they claim to believe. They're nothing like their role model, Jesus.
Finally there are the people who use their religion as justification to control other people- the Pro-life, prayer in the classroom, censorship crowd.
Reason and logic are useless against these people. The Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination and anyone practicing it should be put to death. But no reason is given why it's wrong.
Then there's the Catholic Church. A friend of mine told me that when she went to school the nuns told the girls that they'd go to hell if they wore make-up. The Church is rich beyond belief, but they've been trying to squeeze out every penny they could get from even their poorest parishoners.
They've always been so quick to point out the things that they consider "immoral", then it turned out that their organization had a GIGANTIC number of child molesters and in a lot of cases they covered up the crimes. A GIGANTIC number, not just in America, but worldwide.
And even after all that they have the nerve to come down on "The Da Vinci Code".
Holy Fingers said he thought FB was too smart to be religious, and people got upset about that. But I can see what he means, because I just don't understand how smart people can believe in God.
"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." JOHN 15:14 |
|
|
s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 05:23:18
|
UH-OH!
I feel that this will start a shit storm.
As an atheist i'll do what any atheist would do in a time of religious conflict. Go to the cinema and wait it out.
Before people get all crazy in this thread,
Look at this puppy:
Are you still mad??
Look at his little puppy face!
How about this fella:
http://myspace.com/seanwrenn  |
Edited by - s_wrenn on 05/21/2006 05:37:47 |
 |
|
|
a guy in a rover
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
535 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 05:37:18
|
Agree with everything you've said. However, we must be careful about belittling other peoples values and beliefs, I'm sure there are some people on here who try to live their lives based on the church's teachings, and they might find this post a little disrespectful.
Fucking Bible bashers.
I kid I kid. I was raised Catholic but quickly disowned it, although my dad almost became a priest and he goes to church on Sundays, so obviously I think people should just be allowed to believe what they want. In my eyes, Jesus himself set a great example of how to live your life, unfortunately, many so called 'Christians' don't live their life in this way and instead use their religion to justify homophobia and preach lies about contraception. Also, ever notice how many of these religious types are covertly racist, and fail to notice that Jesus would have looked more like Yasser Arafat than Jim Caviezel?
To summarize, religion can be a force for good, but unfortunately is often used as a force for evil.
A pig or a goat well, they wouldn’t let you be mistreated
|
|
|
|
Holy Fingers
- FB Fan -
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 08:54:36
|
Here's a very simple theory. It is sure to offend, but it is somewhat sensible. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was not married to Joseph. Jesus was essentially a "bastard". Eventually, Jesus asks his mother, "Mommy, who is my father?" Not wanting to be stoned to death for bearing a child out of wedlock, Mary can only reply, "God is your father." So now you have a rugrat Jesus, babbling about how he is the son of god. He grows up and manages to convince a very small handfull of people that he is indeed the son of god. Apparently, he couldn't quite convince the jews of this. In my opinion, and I am not jewish, Jesus was a troublemaker; perhaps history's first. The jews already had a king and a god, so they killed him. He did not rise from the dead, either. His tomb was found empty because his killers removed his body and disposed of it. His small handfull of followers manages to pass his story on and on, until it becomes what we hear and read today.
 REMEMBER THIS: Nowhere in history has an atheist taken a human life in the name of his cause. |
|
|
|
Holy Fingers
- FB Fan -
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 09:30:48
|
Here is a good guess about god in general. As an intelligent species (early man), who can think, act, react, communicate, and fend for themselves, it is only a matter of time before people begin to wonder "How did I get here?" They soon developed theories of supreme creators and gods, and adopt the notion that "whomever made me, must be more powerful than me, and therefore should be worshipped." It is not long before stories about this "creator" are compiled into a book. Some may be true, most are embellished to the extent of the average fairy tale. Halfway through this book, the Jesus story works its way in.
REMEMBER THIS: Nowhere in history has an atheist taken a human life in the name of his cause. |
Edited by - Holy Fingers on 05/21/2006 09:32:34 |
|
|
|
Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 09:31:38
|
What I hate about Christians and Jews is how they raise their children to kill those who won't accept their religion, and how they riot over blasphemy, leaving hundreds of themselves trampled in their Medieval dust, and how they ban the establishment of houses of other religions, and how they forbid their genitally mutilated women to drive automobiles or show their faces to the sun. That's what I hate about Christians and Jews.
perfection could use an upgrade |
|
|
|
Holy Fingers
- FB Fan -
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 09:37:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
What I hate about Christians and Jews is how they raise their children to kill those who won't accept their religion, and how they riot over blasphemy, leaving hundreds of themselves trampled in their Medieval dust, and how they ban the establishment of houses of other religions, and how they forbid their genitally mutilated women to drive automobiles or show their faces to the sun. That's what I hate about Christians and Jews.
perfection could use an upgrade
I agree 100%. I haven't even touched on the hipocracies associtaed with major religions yet.
REMEMBER THIS: Nowhere in history has an atheist taken a human life in the name of his cause. |
|
|
|
s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
|
|
misleadtheworld
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1222 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 10:09:54
|
Brazil.
Where hearts were entertained in June, we stood beneath an amber Moon,
and softly whispered one day soon, we kissed, and clung together there.
Tomorrow was another day. The morning found me miles away,
with still a million things to say.
And now, as twilight moves the sky above, recalling thrills of our love.
There's one thing i'm certain of; return, I will, to old Brazil.
|
|
|
|
Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 12:14:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Fingers
Here is a good guess about god in general. As an intelligent species (early man), who can think, act, react, communicate, and fend for themselves, it is only a matter of time before people begin to wonder "How did I get here?" They soon developed theories of supreme creators and gods, and adopt the notion that "whomever made me, must be more powerful than me, and therefore should be worshipped."
Not to mention dreaming about the dead and therefore assuming the persistance of the dead in some spiritual realm. Or, as beings that rationally already worship at an altar of cause and effect, necessarily seeing the world as effect and therefore equally rationally postulating some uber-cause.
If there is a god, it's not anything we need to worry about, let alone fear.
perfection could use an upgrade |
|
|
|
s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 15:50:35
|
I have to say i'm surprised that this thread has yet to start a war of words.
Maybe the puppies worked!
http://myspace.com/seanwrenn |
|
|
|
Holy Fingers
- FB Fan -
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 16:25:29
|
I like the puppies indeed, s wrenn. I don't see that war happening, though. Puppies or not, there is nothing wrong with a clean debate, and I welcome input from all sides. Now how about some more puppy pics?
REMEMBER THIS: Nowhere in history has an atheist taken a human life in the name of his cause. |
|
|
|
s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 16:34:12
|
I agree on a debate, i would welcome that. But last time religion was debated (is debated even a word?) the thread got closed down.
People got all fired up.
Meh!
PUPPY TIME! ! !
These guys know the score:
http://myspace.com/seanwrenn |
|
|
|
glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 16:40:22
|
s_wrenn, I think that puppy is looking down his nose in a disrespectful way toward people of my religion. I am extremely offended, and hereby demand that all puppies who don't agree with my way of thinking should be persecuted and forbidden to worship as they see fit.
Signature censored by forum moderators. |
|
|
|
s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 16:53:11
|
Puppies persecute everyone and everything.
This one is persecuting this apple (looks a bit like a tomato actually)
In this next piece of photographic evidence we see a dog contemplating on an extract from the Koran:
http://myspace.com/seanwrenn |
Edited by - s_wrenn on 05/21/2006 16:54:39 |
|
|
|
glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 17:25:18
|
Despite the caption, this puppy is resorting to violence to trample his opponent's religious beliefs into the ground.
Signature censored by forum moderators. |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 17:31:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
If there is a god, it's not anything we need to worry about, let alone fear.
that made me chuckle. it's so simple. and so true.
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
|
|
|
Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 19:13:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
If there is a god, it's not anything we need to worry about, let alone fear.
that made me chuckle. it's so simple. and so true.
Thanks Steve. Your reply made me chuckle in turn. Makes me wonder: is there any humor in the Bible? Or the Koran? Or in any of history's great religious texts? Seems like somebody could have sneaked a joke in there somewhere. But then I guess that if they had, the crazies would have expunged it by now. Even the crazies have a enough sense of humor to tag it for eradication. Guess we'll have to be content with "Life of Brian" and late night TV. The crazies get religion and the rest of us get reality. Fair exchange.
Which reminds me of the recent exchange between CoF and Holy Fingers, I think it was. Herr Fingers appeared to dismiss the religious as stupid or some such. Correct me if I have that wrong. Anyway, in using the term "crazies" I don't mean to condemn the majority of the world's population as insane. My take is that all perspectives have equal access to simple deductive logic but that all of us draw conclusions that are at the mercy of the premisses from which we reason. Garbage in, garbage out, as it were. I think there is no such thing as an irrational person, just people whose rationality is employed in the service of questionable assumptions. Even those in the local asylum employ reason, though from worldviews that those of us free to muddle about see as hallucinatory. Hell, even Isaac Newton, paragon of logic, held some pretty narrow religious views.
By the way, apropos of nothing, does anybody know whatever happened to Puerco, aka Eric Roberts, of ancient Abstract Plain fame? I know he posted here a few times back in the early days of this site, but we haven't heard anything from him in ages. Now that is a gifted mind, and promising musician. Some of you must have "The Meaning of Vague" and "Ducky". Is he here under some other guise? If he pops up I'll explain why I ask in this particular context.
perfection could use an upgrade |
|
|
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2814 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2006 : 19:51:54
|
bless you,
now was that so bad? |
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 02:00:38
|
I question whether this can be a discussion or if it will turn into a bunch of people shouting out how religion is bad. I never got why people get so defensive and aggressive in these discussions. What threat to you is the average religious guy on the street? No threat. Why feel so threatened then? No doubt you'll drag up fundamentalist extremists who absolutely commit atrocities in the name of religion but by their actions show themselves up as liars.
This thread has a pretty negative feeling to it so I just don't think it's going to be a fair and balanced discussion.
I will happily punch anyone in the face who talks seriously about the Da Vinci code though. Ugh.
forum ebook: end of miles |
|
|
|
lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 02:06:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
What I hate about Christians and Jews is how they raise their children to kill those who won't accept their religion, and how they riot over blasphemy, leaving hundreds of themselves trampled in their Medieval dust, and how they ban the establishment of houses of other religions, and how they forbid their genitally mutilated women to drive automobiles or show their faces to the sun. That's what I hate about Christians and Jews.
perfection could use an upgrade
"What I hate about Christians and Jews is how they raise their children to kill those who won't accept their religion",
very generalised..... i have not killed anyone yet!! and have never been told to.... religion does'nt make people kill or ask for it to happen (some people use literal snippets outa bibles and such to back up their cause, e.g. eye for an eye etc..) but this has been rejected by all authorities.
I love the last line, "That's what I hate about Christians and Jews." (grow up). That was like a 12 year old's speech. poor kid. Its not religion that causes this.... In places where the religion is common, people find something else to fight about, local town rivalary, land, football (is a big one in places), skin colour, relative wealth, politics, u name it...
|
|
|
|
s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 04:22:30
|
"This thread has a pretty negative feeling to it"
I was trying to change all that with puppy pictures.
Maybe i need to try kittens
This one is doing some kind of jazz-hands style dance:
http://myspace.com/seanwrenn |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 04:29:17
|
stop ripping off mighty boosh
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
|
|
|
s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 04:43:49
|
I didn't know i was ripping it off. I've only seen a few episodes (being raised by Bryan Ferry in the woods, genius!)
http://myspace.com/seanwrenn |
Edited by - s_wrenn on 05/22/2006 04:44:50 |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 05:08:52
|
"look at the picture of the kittens in a barrel"
"yeah.."
"look at them, they're having a whale of a time... all happy.. the one of the left is philip."
"philip.."
"look at philip's eyes"
"he's got little eyes.."
"whenever you're feeling a bit angry, i want you to look at philip.."
"...look at his face, hehe.."
"and your anger will recede like an ocean"
"ahh... thanks naboo"
"that'll be a 159 euros"
"159 -!"
*holds up photo*
"ahh, hehe... look at his little face..."
*hands over wad of euros*
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
|
|
|
Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 05:16:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
If there is a god, it's not anything we need to worry about, let alone fear.
that made me chuckle. it's so simple. and so true.
Makes me wonder: is there any humor in the Bible? Or the Koran? Or in any of history's great religious texts? Seems like somebody could have sneaked a joke in there somewhere.
perfection could use an upgrade
it's a laugh a minute.
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_244.html
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
|
|
|
|
s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 05:22:08
|
Oh wait i think i did see that one.
Apologies to the boosh.
"Pete, he's not a Shaman, he works in Dixons."
http://myspace.com/seanwrenn |
|
|
|
Holy Fingers
- FB Fan -
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 07:22:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
I question whether this can be a discussion or if it will turn into a bunch of people shouting out how religion is bad. I never got why people get so defensive and aggressive in these discussions. What threat to you is the average religious guy on the street? No threat. Why feel so threatened then? No doubt you'll drag up fundamentalist extremists who absolutely commit atrocities in the name of religion but by their actions show themselves up as liars.
This thread has a pretty negative feeling to it so I just don't think it's going to be a fair and balanced discussion.
I will happily punch anyone in the face who talks seriously about the Da Vinci code though. Ugh.
forum ebook: end of miles
If this discussion lacks balance, it is due to the lack of participation on behalf of the pro-religion side. Many people have given simple reasons why they don't believe or disagree with mainstream religious politics. How about hearing the same from some believers? I would respect a "gotta believe in something" or even a "why not?". Nobody is speaking up. I say give it some time, and keep it friendly.
Now, regarding the Da Vinci Code. It's really the same debate as the existence of god in general. Atheists believe the "code" and christians do not. I would love to have proof that Jesus was married and had a child. It actually sounds very realistic. But it can't be proven. Period. This is not to say that he was never married and sans offspring, because that can't be proven either. There is no more proof of the Bible's truth than of the Da Vinci Code's.
I agree, the book and recently released movie are getting WAY too much press, that's just the way the media and the masses over-do things. It is no different than when Mel Gibson's "The Passion Of The Christ" was popular.
So come on Gibson, and you too Hanks. Show your faces, I have some bones to pick with each of you.
REMEMBER THIS: Nowhere in history has an atheist taken a human life in the name of his cause. |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 07:54:53
|
Have you read any of the religion debates on here before? It never works out like you think it'll work out. Nobody's as rational as they consider themselves to be.
 I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid |
|
|
|
remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 08:01:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Fingers
Atheists believe the "code" and christians do not.
REMEMBER THIS: Nowhere in history has an atheist taken a human life in the name of his cause.
I don't believe the "code". This is full of bullshit. A bad book made by a guy that had read "the 10 rules to make a thriller" and went to the first semester at any random art school. |
Edited by - remig on 05/22/2006 08:02:45 |
|
|
|
Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 08:37:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
What I hate about Christians and Jews is how they raise their children to kill those who won't accept their religion, and how they riot over blasphemy, leaving hundreds of themselves trampled in their Medieval dust, and how they ban the establishment of houses of other religions, and how they forbid their genitally mutilated women to drive automobiles or show their faces to the sun. That's what I hate about Christians and Jews.
perfection could use an upgrade
"What I hate about Christians and Jews is how they raise their children to kill those who won't accept their religion",
very generalised..... i have not killed anyone yet!! and have never been told to.... religion does'nt make people kill or ask for it to happen (some people use literal snippets outa bibles and such to back up their cause, e.g. eye for an eye etc..) but this has been rejected by all authorities.
I love the last line, "That's what I hate about Christians and Jews." (grow up). That was like a 12 year old's speech. poor kid. Its not religion that causes this.... In places where the religion is common, people find something else to fight about, local town rivalary, land, football (is a big one in places), skin colour, relative wealth, politics, u name it...
You do realize I'm not talking about Christians and Jews, right? And you do realize that practitioners of a certain religion are making war in tens of diverse locales all around the globe, right? You're right that people easily find things to fight about, but it's one thing to kill the other guy because you hate him for being different or because you want his stuff, and quite another to kill him believing you're going to heaven BECAUSE you killed him. There's a difference between fighting an enemy who wants to live and fighting one who wants to die.
perfection could use an upgrade |
|
|
|
remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 08:54:14
|
Erebus is generalizing again with muslims...
what does this story about killing each other means?
|
|
|
|
Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 09:02:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
I question whether this can be a discussion or if it will turn into a bunch of people shouting out how religion is bad. I never got why people get so defensive and aggressive in these discussions. What threat to you is the average religious guy on the street? No threat. Why feel so threatened then? No doubt you'll drag up fundamentalist extremists who absolutely commit atrocities in the name of religion but by their actions show themselves up as liars.
I don't know that the average religious guy is a threat, but there does seem to be something fundamentally wrong about indoctrinating one's own children before they have gained the capacity for anything resembling critical thought. As someone who thinks there is something noble about wanting to understand how the world works, scientifically and otherwise, there is something offensive about adults willfully stunting the ability of helpless children to come to any such understanding. We quite rightly are outraged by emotional, physical, and sexual abuse of children, but turn a blind eye on intellectual abuse that is sanctioned and even preached worldwide. While it's not like I'm expecting things to change anytme soon, I am going to do what I can to "save" as many as I can.
For what it's worth, I feel the same way when I see children at political rallies of any stripe, wearing t-shirts and waving signs sporting this or that pro- or anti- drivel, the bases of which they cannot begin to comprehend.
I know that children must be taught something, but the emphasis should be on teaching HOW to think, not WHAT to think.
perfection could use an upgrade |
|
|
|
Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 10:24:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Have you read any of the religion debates on here before? It never works out like you think it'll work out. Nobody's as rational as they consider themselves to be.
I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid
Very true. Same with politics and most other serious issues on here.
I heard yesterday that Da Vinci Code has now outsold even the Bible, making it the most purchased book of all time.
People are more interested in conspiracy theology than theology.
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
|
|
|
|
Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 10:50:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by remig
Erebus is generalizing again with muslims...
what does this story about killing each other means?
I admit over-generalization is unfair, but sometimes it takes distortion to get people off their collective asses. The threat is real and platitudes about tolerance are not helping. Yes, tolerance is a noble principle, but absolute adherence to principle does little to console the dead, especially when those deaths do nothing to advance the principle.
The story means what is going on in the world today is not the same as the garden variety historical 'us vs. them'. lonely persuader said: "Its not religion that causes this.... In places where the religion is common, people find something else to fight about, local town rivalary, land, football (is a big one in places), skin colour, relative wealth, politics, u name it..." It IS religion that is causing this. Sure, if you took away the religious underpinnings, we would still have ethnic war and all the rest, but such conflicts are simple by comparison. Religion makes some parties unwilling to consider any compromise. Why should a combatant who thinks that he gains eternal reward by killing himself and as many infidels as possible ever come to the bargaining table? What can you offer him? Therefore I contend that what is going on now is categorically different from what we have seen in recent history.
perfection could use an upgrade |
|
|
|
s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 10:59:03
|
"And I wonder 
Yeah I wonder
Will Elvis take the place of Jesus in a thousand years
Religious wars
Barbaric laws
Bloodshed worldwide
Over what's left of his myth" -Dead Kennedys
http://myspace.com/seanwrenn |
Edited by - s_wrenn on 05/22/2006 11:59:47 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Jesus H. Christ
