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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2006 : 04:44:14
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cassandra is,
Im sure i could come up with something against homosexuality, but thats not really my point either. It is that there is often a cry against certain view points just because they are "old views" or they seem like "religious view" with no real basis. But there is a basis for many that should be discussed and not just thrown out with the old for the sake of it.
Ya, the labelling thing is really a poor argument in any age. TBH, i see alot of dumbing down in the irish media every day. Even the people I live with, I can see how relatively uninterested and uninformed there are about politics and sciological happenings and the worst thing is they act smug in their ignorance (well they dont listen to FB either).
ps. i seen bob mould at the weekend in ireland. t'was a fecking amazing gig. Again tiny venue (300 people) and not even sold out (people taste's are lame).
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 05:01:56
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"I'd be glad to hear your arguments about that."
I gave a few earlier.
Where do u think religion came from? Do you think it was a couple of mad men who had good oratorical skills or from (at least) a human desire to live a happy life? Why do you think such things as morals evolved? are'nt they beneficial, are they introns?
As i said in a previous post, Muhammad and Jesus were real and their lives are well documented. You tell me why you think they were wrong.
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 05:03:46
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"but that's one of the points of religions (most of them)"
thats not the point of any religions, it may happen to be a by-product that alot of people focus on (for some strange reason). |
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 05:11:41
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Because they wanted the believers to breed so they could outnumber the believers of other religions?
--> FREE MUSIC <-- |
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 06:02:39
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How does the Koran end, by the way does anyone know? Is it similar to the Bible telling Christians the planet is destined to end up a big fireball?
p.s. Michaël, the Old Testament came from a bunch of Levite priests who were held hostage in Babylon for seven years, which explains the malevolent tone of the book.
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Buy your best friend flowers. Buy your lover a beer. Covet thy father. Covet thy neighbour's father. Honour thy lover's beer. Covet thy neighbour's father's wife's sister. Take her to bingo night. |
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 06:16:12
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Oh don´t get me wrong, I think they´re both garbage.
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Buy your best friend flowers. Buy your lover a beer. Covet thy father. Covet thy neighbour's father. Honour thy lover's beer. Covet thy neighbour's father's wife's sister. Take her to bingo night. |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 06:18:08
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 pas de dutchie! |
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 06:30:49
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Yeah Carl, I spoke with the jellyfish god and he´s displeased about the use of lined paper to portray His Gelatinousness.
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Buy your best friend flowers. Buy your lover a beer. Covet thy father. Covet thy neighbour's father. Honour thy lover's beer. Covet thy neighbour's father's wife's sister. Take her to bingo night. |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 07:07:21
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| its all spagetti and meatballs anyways |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 08:04:06
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People don't seem to understand the simple concept of not being able to control people being asses but being able to control your own reaction to such assholes.
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
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zub_the_goat
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
639 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 08:09:18
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| Everything ive read and seen over the last few days just shows what hatred there is, hatred to the point of willing to die for that hatred, and the media are sensationalising it, making demons and heroes out of both sides, it's taken on a life of its own, greater than the numbers involved- i just dont see a solution-the situation is two bi-polar, but the asshats trying to get one over arent helping |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 09:34:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Visiting Sasquatch
This is getting interesting...
Iran invites cartoons on Holocaust
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/07/iran.cartoon.ap/index.html
Iran has a long history of anti-semitism. They were closely linked with Hitler partially because Aryans are originally from Iran (or something of that sort). And today several holocaust deniers seek refuge in Iran from European governments.
That being said the West can verbally protest Iran's cartoons, but skip the burning down of embassies. |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 10:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Religion isn't a disease it's an easy target.
Bravo Tre. Best thing i've read/heard all day. I'm like 2 seconds away from proposing marriage.
-Brian
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 10:58:48
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Just to clarify, the Bible does not ANYWHERE in its texts condemn homosexuality. The passage from Leviticus that is usually stated as the "anti-homosexuality passage" reads as follows:
Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination" (New American Translation)
Now, if you read that, you may think that it is anti male on male sex. That would be incorrect. As close as 10 verses earlier, there are explicit rules on intercourse and the word intercourse is used. However, the above passage uses the word "lie" not "intercourse."
The reason for this, is that the passage is actually about slavery and roles of power. To lie with a man as if you were a woman means to subject yourself to the strict guidelines of another man and be subserviant to him. Now, obviously i do not believe that women should be subservient of men, but that is a problem with ALL literature and social guidelines from the era that this book was written.
Besides that, there is not a 'mention' of homosexuality once in the Bible. Christ never speaks out against sexual sins at all, actually.
So what i'm saying is, before you make a statement, do your homework.
Wow, it feels good to put my Theology degree to work.
[/rant]
-Brian
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 11:24:50
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religion targets the easy..
Your mum |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 12:14:12
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to quote from one of my favorite Theological sources, THE BODY IN CONTEXT by Gareth Moore...
The Anglican Board for Social Responsibility's document HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONS says:
The crime of the inhabitants of Sodom is viewed primarily as a failure to respect the duty of hospitality, which was regarded so much more seiously in the ancient Semitic world than it would be today. The purpose of the homosexual attack is to demonstrate the ultimate breach of the obligation of hospitality.
(back to Moore) On the other hand, it accepts that 'the narritive does express abhorence of homosxuality.' But it clearly does not. It expresses abborence of, if anything, treating the obligation of hospitality with contempt by attempting to assault and rape a visitor. Sexual assault and rape are not the same as ordinary sexual relations, whether homosexual or heterosexual. If the visitor in question had been a woman, nobody would have dreamed of suggesting that the story expresses abhorence of heterosexuality.
-Brian
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 12:15:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
Just to clarify, the Bible does not ANYWHERE in its texts condemn homosexuality. The passage from Leviticus that is usually stated as the "anti-homosexuality passage" reads as follows:
Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination" (New American Translation)
Now, if you read that, you may think that it is anti male on male sex. That would be incorrect. As close as 10 verses earlier, there are explicit rules on intercourse and the word intercourse is used. However, the above passage uses the word "lie" not "intercourse."
The reason for this, is that the passage is actually about slavery and roles of power. To lie with a man as if you were a woman means to subject yourself to the strict guidelines of another man and be subserviant to him. Now, obviously i do not believe that women should be subservient of men, but that is a problem with ALL literature and social guidelines from the era that this book was written.
Besides that, there is not a 'mention' of homosexuality once in the Bible. Christ never speaks out against sexual sins at all, actually.
So what i'm saying is, before you make a statement, do your homework.
Wow, it feels good to put my Theology degree to work.
[/rant]
-Brian
I think we don't have the same translation of the Bible man!
pas de bras pas de chocolat |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 13:08:29
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Well, by all means, post yours.
 "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 20:36:28
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| god man man god man god man god god man man god god man god. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2006 : 00:39:33
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quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
god man man god man god man god god man man god god man god.
Amen.
That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2006 : 00:40:44
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Hey Brian, that's interesting, I'd actually never heard that first interpretation before. Not that I spend my time discussing the Bible, but still... Don't you get the impression that these "enlightened" readings of the Bible (or any sacred book for that matter) are only circulating among scholars and that religious authorities are quite happy with letting the "plebe" stick to the simplistic, manicheistic view (e.g. "gay=condemned by the Bible")?... Are the interpretations that you posted widely accepted? It certainly doesn't sound like something the Pope would endorse...
Re: cartoons. I've just read this story in a French weekly called Le Canard Enchaîné. When the cartoons were published on Sept. 30, it triggered a demonstration by Danish Muslims. Then a group of ambassadors from 11 muslim countries asked to meet the Danish Prime minister, but he refused. A delegation of Danish imams then started touring Muslim countries to ask for support from religious groups, apparently showing them "fake" cartoons that they had commissioned themselves, including one that depicted Muhammad as a pig.
--> FREE MUSIC <-- |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2006 : 01:15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by jediroller
Re: cartoons. I've just read this story in a French weekly called Le Canard Enchaîné. When the cartoons were published on Sept. 30, it triggered a demonstration by Danish Muslims. Then a group of ambassadors from 11 muslim countries asked to meet the Danish Prime minister, but he refused. A delegation of Danish imams then started touring Muslim countries to ask for support from religious groups, apparently showing them "fake" cartoons that they had commissioned themselves, including one that depicted Muhammad as a pig.
Aaah, at last, an answer to my burning question :) Thanks Jedi. I must say I suspected something like that.
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"I want to change the world but it's changing me!" |
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2006 : 01:18:00
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"Don't you get the impression that these "enlightened" readings of the Bible (or any sacred book for that matter) are only circulating among scholars and that religious authorities are quite happy with letting the "plebe" stick to the simplistic, manicheistic view (e.g. "gay=condemned by the Bible")?... Are the interpretations that you posted widely accepted? It certainly doesn't sound like something the Pope would endorse..."
exactly! 90 (or should I say 99% of "serious" theologians are positive about that: homosexuality is condemned in the Bible)
it is more a question of context than a question of translation.
in fact it's so easy to quote things ou of their context.
here's the whole chapter 20 from Leviticus, judge by yourself:
Leviticus 20
Punishment for Child Sacrifice
1The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2"Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. 3I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. 4And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, 5then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech.
6"If a person turns to mediums and wizards, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. 7Consecrate yourselves, therefore, and be holy, for I am the LORD your God. 8Keep my statutes and do them; I am the LORD who sanctifies you. 9For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.
Punishments for Sexual Immorality
10"If a man commits adultery with the wife of[a] his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. 11If a man lies with his father's wife, he has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. 12If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. 13If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. 14If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire, that there may be no depravity among you. 15If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. 16If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.
17"If a man takes his sister, a daughter of his father or a daughter of his mother, and sees her nakedness, and she sees his nakedness, it is a disgrace, and they shall be cut off in the sight of the children of their people. He has uncovered his sister's nakedness, and he shall bear his iniquity. 18If a man lies with a woman during her menstrual period and uncovers her nakedness, he has made naked her fountain, and she has uncovered the fountain of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from among their people. 19You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister or of your father's sister, for that is to make naked one's relative; they shall bear their iniquity. 20If a man lies with his uncle's wife, he has uncovered his uncle's nakedness; they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless. 21If a man takes his brother's wife, it is impurity. He has uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.
You Shall Be Holy
22"You shall therefore keep all my statutes and all my rules and do them, that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them. 24But I have said to you, 'You shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess, a land flowing with milk and honey.' I am the LORD your God, who have separated you from the peoples. 25You shall therefore separate the clean beast from the unclean, and the unclean bird from the clean. You shall not make yourselves detestable by beast or by bird or by anything with which the ground crawls, which I have set apart for you to hold unclean. 26You shall be holy to me, for I the LORD am holy and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine.
27"A man or a woman who is a medium or a wizard shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them."
Footnotes:
Leviticus 20:10 Hebrew repeats if a man commits adultery with the wife of
Leviticus 20:21 Literally menstrual impurity
you don't need to be a theologian to understand what they are talking about
pas de bras pas de chocolat |
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2006 : 01:26:52
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and by the way,here's another quote from the New Testament on the subject,and other things:
1 Corinthians 5
Sexual Immorality Defiles the Church
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.[a]
6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges[b] those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 5:5 Some manuscripts add Jesus
1 Corinthians 5:13 Or will judge
1 Corinthians 6
Lawsuits Against Believers
1When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8But you yourselves wrong and defraud--even your own brothers![a]
9Do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Flee Sexual Immorality
12"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13"Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"--and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16Or do you not know that he who is joined[d] to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin[e] a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:8 Or brothers and sisters
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or wrongdoers
1 Corinthians 6:9 The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts
1 Corinthians 6:16 Or who holds fast (compare Genesis 2:24 and Deuteronomy 10:20); also verse 17
1 Corinthians 6:18 Or Every sin
we can disagree on the use of the term "homosexuality" in the translation (because it does not existed at the time, that's why it is not mentioned by its name in the original versions of the text, like the words "pedophily" or "zoophily" aren't named in the Leviticus chapter, but clearly described, mentionned and condemned), but the footnotes are quite explicit about the choice of this word.
pas de bras pas de chocolat |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2006 : 01:52:36
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Btw, if God exists, how come Regina is still the capital of Saskatchewan?
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"I want to change the world but it's changing me!" |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2006 : 03:07:09
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Some people are talking about religion and some people are talking about god and many are talking about them as if they´re the same thing.
and p.s.
quote:
Broken Face Posted - 02/07/2006 : 12:14:12
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to quote from one of my favorite Theological sources, THE BODY IN CONTEXT by Gareth Moore...
The Anglican Board for Social Responsibility's document HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONS says:
The crime of the inhabitants of Sodom is viewed primarily as a failure to respect the duty of hospitality, which was regarded so much more seiously in the ancient Semitic world than it would be today. The purpose of the homosexual attack is to demonstrate the ultimate breach of the obligation of hospitality.
(back to Moore) On the other hand, it accepts that 'the narritive does express abhorence of homosxuality.' But it clearly does not. It expresses abborence of, if anything, treating the obligation of hospitality with contempt by attempting to assault and rape a visitor. Sexual assault and rape are not the same as ordinary sexual relations, whether homosexual or heterosexual. If the visitor in question had been a woman, nobody would have dreamed of suggesting that the story expresses abhorence of heterosexuality.
It was more the destruction of cities part got my attention.
--
Buy your best friend flowers. Buy your lover a beer. Covet thy father. Covet thy neighbour's father. Honour thy lover's beer. Covet thy neighbour's father's wife's sister. Take her to bingo night. |
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Muhammad Cartoons
I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid