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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2005 : 08:22:00
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quote:
Academics in the UK claim their research shows that men are more intelligent than women.
A study to be published later this year in the British Journal of Psychology says that men are on average five points ahead on IQ tests.
Paul Irwing and Professor Richard Lynn claim the difference grows when the highest IQ levels are considered.
Their research was based on IQ tests given to 80,000 people and a further study of 20,000 students.
The full article is here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4183166.stm
Now obviously this is a highly emotive subject, but there it is, in a scientifically, peer reviewed paper, that men are more intelligent then women.
Personally I don't really think that there is a genetic predisposition for men to be more intelligent than women, but if not, then why did it come up as being the case in the study? Are there environmental factors that mean men end up as more intelligent than women on average?
Does this paper just show that men are better at taking IQ tests than women are?
Lets try and keep this as sexist comment free as possible :) and make it a clean fight;)
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 08:35:35
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| Eh, I don't know if I agree with this. Women may by and large be more passive when it comes to competitiveness in academics and climbing the career ladder but I don't think they are any less intelligent. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 08:42:46
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Yes they are!
This is a high class bureau de change, not some Punch & Judy show on the seafront at Margate! |
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Z_Zoquis
- FB Fan -
145 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 08:46:22
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| I wonder if the IQ tests were developed by men or women..."intelligence" is a pretty obtuse term really. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 08:59:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Z_Zoquis
I wonder if the IQ tests were developed by men or women..."intelligence" is a pretty obtuse term really.
men I think. My wife went down that route too. You would think that kind of bias would either be accounted for or wouldn't exist(I have no idea, I may be naive) It wouldn't explain the increasing gap at the higher end of the IQ scale either.
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Edited by - Llamadance on 08/27/2005 09:03:41 |
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zub_the_goat
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
639 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 09:06:16
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| IQ tests in general are very much biased towards white middle class males so i dont put too much faith in them to be honest. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 09:15:26
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We're all born of a man and a woman anyway, picking a winner would just insult everybody. And if you guys are going to keep posting governmental news you could at least mention it on the title to warn me please.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 09:17:09
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quote:
Originally posted by zub_the_goat
IQ tests in general are very much biased towards white middle class males so i dont put too much faith in them to be honest.
That may or may not be true. Do you have any evidence to support it? We have no idea whether there is a bias, if the tests they did were designed to avoid bias, or whether any bias is accounted for in the final results.
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 09:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
We're all born of a man and a woman anyway, picking a winner would just insult everybody. And if you guys are going to keep posting governmental news you could at least mention it on the title to warn me please.
Would you stay out then? That would be a shame as you bring a unique point of view, which would be valuable in this discussion.
Also, if you automatically dismiss govermental news, isn't that being closed-minded, a trait which you obviously dislike.
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 09:27:06
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If the tests were designed by men they would be from a male perspective, the way we think is different to the way you lot think. It would explain the increasing gap if you look at it in terms of maleness, at the higher end of male thinking we're going to be less likely to 'get it'. It's like the incidence of not putting the toilet seat down, we don't get it so we're never going to score there but it makes perfect sense to you lot so you do it all the bloody time.
Anyway, reading the article it suggests that the test was one on spatial and verbal ability, and if I remember rightly there is some reason women are going to score less there because we have a harder time grasping spatial awareness. (there was some tests done I'm sure where you presented men and women with a picture of an object upside down, and whilst men could process the information as was, women had to turn it round to see it as it was), Also, historically men have had a longer time of being able to flex their inellectual muscles than women, for a long time and as recently as the Watson and Crick days women in academics was considered a bit rum really. It is only really very recently we've been permitted to reach the same levels as our male counterparts, and even now there is some differences. For example my father and his lady friend both have the same job, they are both undergoing a new sort of medical training without having to do a medical degree, it's a pilot project. They work as a pair, do the same roles, have the same tests and do the same practicals. Yet, when the contracts arrived my father was being paid something like a couple of thousand more than his girlfriend (which didn't stand, pops stormed the office and politely told them to fix it or stick it). Inequality in academia between men and women still exist so the difference could also lie in history and relatability. There are fewer women role models in most fields than men and this can be a suppressive force I think.
Another factor could be the tests themselves, I'm never very sure that they are wholly indicitive of intelligence. It says in that paper an IQ of 125 is supposed to be the same as getting a first degree which is quite frankly, in my mind incomparable.
I have to look something up I had a thought. |
Edited by - starmekitten on 08/27/2005 09:37:36 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 09:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
We're all born of a man and a woman anyway, picking a winner would just insult everybody. And if you guys are going to keep posting governmental news you could at least mention it on the title to warn me please.
Are you going to promise to disclaimer your articles too? something like "pretty conspiracy theory written by a hippy on the left" and erebus has to promise to label his "possibly written by someone in a nuclear bunker on the right"
I never understood the dismissal of one news source coupled with the acceptance of the validity of another on the basis that it appeals to the chosen sensibility. |
Edited by - starmekitten on 08/27/2005 09:35:30 |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 09:41:31
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quote:
Would you stay out then? That would be a shame as you bring a unique point of view, which would be valuable in this discussion.
Also, if you automatically dismiss govermental news, isn't that being closed-minded, a trait which you obviously dislike.
I'm exposed to governmental news when I walk down the street, there's a kiosk on every corner with large banner headlines. If I go to a bar there's invariably a teevee in the corner with a news channel on. I just want to proportion it that's all. I used to tune in to governmental sources by reading papers and watching teevee but it made me feel angry and depressed so I chose to get my information from other places. You're right, I won't dismiss the post outright, I just don't want to feel like that ever again. Plus I have no trouble reconciling their homicidal policies with the idea that their media wing might be equally harmful.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 11:35:24
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quote:
Are you going to promise to disclaimer your articles too? something like "pretty conspiracy theory written by a hippy on the left"
Tre, the line that the BBC take about the recent bombings, that it was committed by a bunch of Arabs conspiring against the state, is also a conspiracy theory. It just depends on whether you want to pick official conspiracy theories or alternative ones. Thankfully the official conspiracy theorists have yet to brush up on their Photoshop skills:
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 11:36:20
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I’ve always been interested in personality and gender differences, so, always speaking in terms of gross generalities, a few thoughts and suspicions:
In terms of reasoning, both genders possess similar skills in deductive or syllogistic reasoning. Both are similarly rational. The primary differences are in terms of sets of premises, or in what they reason from and therefore to. Woman is better grounded in the inner world of emotions and the nature of the individual human being and therefore reasons better in that realm. Conversely, man is more attuned to the outer world of extension and space. Man is extensive, woman is intensive. Interestingly, both the inner or micro, and the outer or macro, involve polar opposite infinities, with universes within and without. Extension can be infinitely incremented and manipulated, as in mathematics and the like, and the micro or intensive world similarly allows infinite discrimination and articulation. Each allows and rewards its own subtlety.
Boys and men show greater skill with projectiles and ballistics, which may suggest a genetic basis of the sense of refined facility that underlies mathematical expression when that skill is taken to abstraction. This realm has the advantage of lending itself to unambiguous articulation. Verification and agreement is easy in the realm of math and the physical sciences, so great edifices of relativly uncontested understanding can be erected. Such men can easily demonstrate their skill and accomplishments, and perform well on portions of IQ tests where clarity and certainty are subject to little debate. Conversely, though girls and women similarly navigate the realms to which they are innately disposed, these realms of emotion and human psychology to not lend themselves to such verifiability. Though hardly less impressive, skill in such realms is less amenable to articulation and definition, and therefore less measurable via IQ tests.
Because the realm of men is infinite in the outward, extensive respect, it covers infinitely expansive territory, both literally and figuratively. Therefore, men show greater intellectual diversity. As men move outward, they necessarily diverge from one another. Conversely, because the realm of women focuses toward a center, movement in that direction, toward a center of emotional motivation and understanding, women converge toward greater similarity. Because men exhibit greater diversity of types of intelligence, for any given societal need, supply of representatives of a type will be more limited than will be women within their own realm, and therefore men will tend to be paid more, simply as a function of the law of supply and demand. In general, intelligent and articulate women will tend more to resemble one another than will men, who will exhibit intelligence and articulation over a greater range of subspecialites. They will know more about less, and therefore show greater degrees of specialization. Perhaps it could be said that women will be likely to know more about something less specialized, and therefore perhaps more important: how to live one’s life with more realistic expectations, and, therefore, greater prospects for contentment.
Even if man and woman innately possessed similar talents for the spatial and mathematical, testosterone and the resultant level of greater activity would cause man to survey a more extensive segment of reality, and therefore accumulate greater understanding of the segment in question. Woman, being less active, will gain greater understanding of where she is, and therefore of what it means to have, and be, a center, .... a human, emotional center. Man motes, woman emotes, and each gains greater understanding of what it does most.
In matters of intellect and higher intelligence generally, the most accomplished men will be those with less than average testosterone, for greater than average produces the beast, the brute, and the oaf. Conversely, the intellectual woman will tend to possess more than average testosterone for her gender. She will show greater skill, relative to her gender, with math and will be more motivated to build something with it.
As stated at the outset, these ideas, roughly sketched in broad terms, are intended as gross generalizations on the archetypes of man and woman, especially intellectual man and woman, where intellect, as Schopenhauer noted, is seen as the ability and inclination to see the general in the particular. Exceptions abound, though I suspect they usually support the rule to which they seem to stand in exception. I believe nature brought about this polarity of man and woman in part to cover all the bases, in the sense of increasing the likelihood that the average pair-bond will include minds that successfully, as in succession, address what the world is likely to throw at it. Man looks outward onto the range with an eye and mind for threat, food, shelter, and the like. Woman looks inward onto the family and its relationships with an eye and mind for the dangers that would threaten harmony, and with an eye and mind for optimizaton of different sustenance, that of the soul, if you will.
These observations are for the most part based upon a combination of my own experiences and selective, biased reading. This is just a thumbnail sketch of a set ideas that would warrant a treatise. Is it any wonder I’d rather open another beer and watch a baseball game? Maybe the Cardinals will be on. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 11:41:17
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I agree with the post up top. But then, my work has turned me into an outrageous sexist.
Most men think women are stupid. Most women think men are stupid. This is healthy. Or at least there's not anything that can be done about it. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 12:10:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
Tre, the line that the BBC take about the recent bombings, that it was committed by a bunch of Arabs conspiring against the state, is also a conspiracy theory. It just depends on whether you want to pick official conspiracy theories or alternative ones. Thankfully the official conspiracy theorists have yet to brush up on their Photoshop skills:
I don't 'pick' here because you limit yourself as soon as you do so to your box, surely a greater understanding of something thats going to approximate the truth is going to come from examining all the information at hand and forming a between the lines balance? Not limiting yourself to what you think already is right, it's just so blinkered to my mind.
And to be honest, I don't see whats suggested to be seen in that picture, emphasis on suggestion.
I also don't see what this has to do with the article posted either, it's just a brief report on a paper due to be published, if it had cropped up anywhere but the BBC would you have an opinion on it? |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 12:36:05
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Tre, from what I've read:
* Men tend to perform better on spatial questions.
* Women outpace men on reading and other verbal skills.
which suggests that the IQ test may have evened itself out.
These findings still occur in tests designed to weed out sex bias (which I understand most are designed to do). I would hope that despite the two quoted scientists being male, there was substantial female input into the design. Maybe not though.
Whether the differences are similar quantitatively, I've no idea. I take the point about men thinking/test creating differently, so we can't expect women to excel. Erebus actually puts it very well in his post above.
I've done some reading since my last post, and up till this study it seems that there has been no difference found in IQ between men and women. Whether this backs up or refutes the validity of IQ tests, I've no idea. I also don't know whether the study quoted up top is the largest most comprehensive study done. You would hope so given the amount of publicity it's had ;)
Other info that may be interesting, that hasn't been mentioned (whether it holds for this study, I don't know) is that men account for the largest portion of people at the bottom end of the IQ scale.
The study up top also found there was no difference betweeen males and females up to the age of 14. It was after that that difference became apparent. Again whether that's cultural/environmental or possibly related to puberty and hormonal changes is up for debate.
There is evidence that hormonal fluctuations in both men and women affect their IQ score.
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 13:30:08
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quote:
examining all the information at hand and forming a between the lines balance?
I realise it must sound like coming off halfcocked sometimes but I like to follow similar methods: I listen to what people say to me and I look for patterns instead of trying to shoehorn what I already know into some prefabricated theory. I brought in the photo because it was the latest hole I found in an official story, I'm concerned because Arabs are having an awful time of it around the world and one of the reasons is a photo (part of it above, whole of it below) released by the Metropolitan police on newswires showed four Arab boys getting on a train in London, ostensibly to kill 50 Londoners. I suggest you take the photo yourself, put it into paint or photoshop and enlarge it you will see the pixels of one of the boys heads mingles with those of a railing supposedly a few feet behind him and the bottom bar of the same railing is in front of his arm. The photo has since been yanked from Yahoo because enough researchers pointed out the shoddiness of the edit, but that never made the evening news.
About the BBC, to say the sanitised coverage of the massacre in the Gulf didn't exactly endear them to me nor their vilification of one of their reporters actually worth the name who pointed out that Iraqi intelligence dossiers had been reworked to sell the war to the public. And if photos like this had been shown on the evening broadcasts http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/mirror/mar2003/1/6/000B23D1-57E5-1E7E-881A80C328EC0000.jpg , what public support there was for the war might have dimmed enough to save a lot of Iraqi lives. And then there was the statue of Saddam being pulled down. The BBC showed this,
said it was a 'highly symbolic moment' witnessed by a 'crowd of cheering Iraqis', giving the impression that the invading forces were being welcomed as saviours.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_iraq_timeline/html/buildup_second_war.stm
What they did not show was the long view of the scene:
An almost deserted square, more journalists and soldiers there than Iraqis, the statue being pulled down not by Iraqis but by an American armoured vehicle. I wonder what kept this photo off the front page of every daily around the world. Trust governmental news networks all you like, I'll respect your wish to do so. For me they have lost their right to inform me on how the world is in any way.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 13:43:45
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quote:
Also, historically men have had a longer time of being able to flex their inellectual muscles than women, for a long time and as recently as the Watson and Crick days women in academics was considered a bit rum really. It is only really very recently we've been permitted to reach the same levels as our male counterparts, and even now there is some differences.
Inequality in academia between men and women still exist so the difference could also lie in history and relatability. There are fewer women role models in most fields than men and this can be a suppressive force I think.
I do think there is something in the expectations of people being different for men and women, and that then having an impact on the achievement.
As there are less women in these positions and maybe because of a male suppressive force, is it possible that women use their brains less in a problem solving fashion. For instance, similar to a muscle, the more you use your brain, the more toned it becomes. Maybe women through force of culture and environment use their brains less/differently and consequently do less well at IQ tests. (Assuming the quoted study is correct in its findings)
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 14:16:45
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I think to an extent we have been pigeonholed, there's no denying that there's a difference in the way men and women are, they way they think is different and if you give a man and a woman a problem to solve they will probably attack the problem differently, but I don't think the end result would be all that much different. For so long now women have been the stay at home carers and employed in the gentile vocations wheras men have been the 'real world providers' and done the nasty work. It's changing, but still slowly I think. Maybe we have (women I mean) as a sex been not used to using our heads in straight academic and measurable ways. As an undergrad I had one female lecturer to an excess of male lecturers. When I went to switch degrees from biology to something with more emphasis on the biochemical and molecular subjects my male tutor told me I wanted biomolecular sciences, so I went with that. When I went to my new lectures I found we were two degrees lumped together, biomolecular and biochemistry, the molecular was all girls the chemistry all boys, we did the exact same modules, sat the exact same exams but had different degree titles at the end of it. I wanted to do molecular genetics and tried to get a reference from this supervisor and he suggested I apply to the bloody plant place instead as that might suit me better. I hate plant biology. I think the traditional roles have a lot to answer for in general, when I worked in operating theatres, male nurses are unusual as are female doctors. Those that were there worked as well as their counterparts but it's all down to where we've been pigeonholed. I think when you have a male dominated industry which academia (despite it trying to shift that now) is, I think it can be tough. It was unbearably embarassing going to talk to a male lecturer about a problem I was having or something I didn't understand because he would oft times repeat the thing but louder. I had to get really militant with them to get anywhere, adopt almost male agressiveness which they could understand. I think some of these old guys don't know how to deal with female students because they don't understand them so we miss out a bit. I know a lot of disciplines now have gender quotas they have to fill, and I guess this works in my favour as sciences are trying desperatly to not seem to be sexist I'm more likely to get a job now heh, but I do like to think the job I do would be as good as any similarly qualified male. I think maybe at the extreme end, where there is 5.5 genius men to 1 genius woman it's probably a case of not being let to be moreso than not being able. I know I feel a lot smarter and think a lot better when my brain is being stimulated efficiently.
I might just be refusing to admit to being dumb though hehe.
[EDIT] Owen, the "long view" is far too small to show whats happening in the square or even if the picture was taken at the same time as the other one, if assuming the small one shows the statue being pulled down crowdless why is it not possible that too could have been photoshopped. Assuming that is, that your one has. I see a stripe on the sleeve of his jacket the same as the stripe on the jacket of the guy standing in front of him and I see the light on the side of his face same as I see the light on the side of the face as the guy in front of him. I don't like the way the this has been portrayed in the media, I don't like it at all. But just because you don't like it doesn't mean that one or two of them aren't twisted enough to have done it. There's ruthless bastards on all sides and it doesn't pay just to suspect your own ruthless bastards.
Also, dicking about in photoshop a bit for these image manipulation threads I cannot see why, if you wanted to put these boys in the picture, you would only half impose and arm or a face and mix it with a bar? It's be harder doing that than it would be just dumping an image in there... |
Edited by - starmekitten on 08/27/2005 14:35:48 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 14:42:18
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Perhaps we just let men think they're more intelligent...(totally just kidding.)
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 14:57:27
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I don't think there's any doubt that there is institutionalised sexism. I'm pretty certain that my wife has been a victim of it. Maybe not consciously, but just in the way that she's perceived. Like you said Tre, she's been pigeon-holed, and the boss is happy with her in that position.
There was another instance I'm aware of where two scientists who are married to each other were affected by a re-jigging of job titles. Despite the female scientist having a better publication record and a better record in terms of getting grants, she had just had a baby. Now obviously the bloke had just had a baby too, but people don't see that.
The male was given a Principle Investigator position (or lead scientist) and the female was reduced (if you like) to a support scientist role. Now whether it was because she was female or had just had a baby I don't know, but it just reeks of sexism.
The woman, whilst initially furious (obviously) reconciled it by telling herself that ultimately it didn't matter, as she had her family and that was what mattered. She'd just had a baby, was on maternity leave, the last thing you need is a fight over your job as well. So it seems she's accepted it. And with that, probably, much of the original thought and problem-solving that she was doing so well at.
Tragic.
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 16:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
said it was a 'highly symbolic moment' witnessed by a 'crowd of cheering Iraqis', giving the impression that the invading forces were being welcomed as saviours.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_iraq_timeline/html/buildup_second_war.stm
What they did not show was the long view of the scene:
An almost deserted square, more journalists and soldiers there than Iraqis, the statue being pulled down not by Iraqis but by an American armoured vehicle. I wonder what kept this photo off the front page of every daily around the world. Trust governmental news networks all you like, I'll respect your wish to do so. For me they have lost their right to inform me on how the world is in any way.
I don't know what you were watching Owen. I turned on the TV that afternoon as all this was unfolding. I watched on the BBC: the long shots were very much there, there was plenty of pictures of the statue hooked up to, and being pulled down by, the American tank, just as there was pictures of the American soldier climbing up to put a US flag over the statues face until being told to take it down.
On topic, I don't have a scientific addition to make to this, simply that most people I know that I would consider 'cleverer' than me (of which there are plenty) are women. That's my judgement of intelligence though, just like an IQ test is someone else's judgement of intelligence.
Note on spatial awareness: you'll remember there were no female challengers in the great shineoftheever vs. floop Parallel Park-off.
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 16:32:53
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This thread reminds me of the lingerie thread.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 16:37:23
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Here's a large version of the one that Reuters released. I feel it is genuine because if doctored photos had been circulated in an attempt to deceive the public that there were fewer people at the statue ceremony than there actually were, we would have heard about such a grevious attempt to sabotage the Iraqi liberation and the reports would show the undoctored version with the jubilant crowds they said were there included. Since a longshot of Paradise Square filled with cheering Iraqis has not surfaced after two years, I'm taking a stab at there never was one.
Remember this photo? This guy was a posterboy for the grateful civilians at the same occasion:
He looks kindof like this Ahmed Chalabi militia man (guy in light shirt) in this AP shot:
About the London CCTV photo, I'd always thought it weird that if you were going to release one photo of evidence it would be one not so clumsily altered as that one but it hadn't occurred to me that it is more difficult to smudge the head and railing pixels than it is to simply paste the fellow on, you make a fascinating point.
quote:
But just because you don't like it doesn't mean that one or two of them aren't twisted enough to have done it.
I've only got one source for what I'm about to say so I'm not claiming it as gospel - the other night I saw an interview with a former LAPD officer called Michael C Ruppert who's done some fine journalism about the CIA and the curious tendency for the heroin industry to blossom in whatever country they have an operation, and he gave his reason for on Sep 11 the four aircraft being allowed to fly around for an entire hour after their transponders were shut off while all the airforce bases they flew over with pilots on standby waiting for that exact purpose (they take about 3 minutes to scramble into the air) kept their planes grounded: there were crisis management firms with wargames scheduled for the same scenario as was played out, about 15 passengerplanes in the air and the bases had no idea which planes were actually a threat. Here's what I'm getting at, an interview Peter Power, managing director of crisis management firm Visor Consultants gave on the evening of the seventh of July this year:
POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.
HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?
POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they'd met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision that this is the real one and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from slow time to quick time thinking and so on.
It's just some of a pattern I saw parts of in the Madrid bombing last year too. The cover story was here torn apart pretty quickly: the man who supplied the explosives was arrested with the private phonenumber of Juan Jesus Sanchez Manzano, the Guardia Civil bombsquad chief in his pocket and what's more, two of the suspects (the police killed seven of them in an apartment) were discovered to have been police informants, one to the UCO (elite division of the military police) even. I've seen this before somewhere, the accused and the accuser have the most incestous links yet the attack was a complete surprise. But of course on the airwaves it's still Arab terrorist all the way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not subscribing to this starryeyed An Arab could never have done this schtick, just that the stories we're fed look to me like jigsaws with illfitting pieces and the cowardly attacks that they don't even begin to explain seem like work on a scale far broader than that of simply the one ethnic group who are getting the blame at the moment.
P.S. this is something I found while looking for the photo. It's an interview Rumsfeld gave two weeks after Sep 11. Apropos of nothing, I just think it's worth quoting.
Reporter: Will there be any circumstances, as you prosecute this campaign, in which anyone in the Department of Defense will be authorized to lie to the news media in order to increase the chances of success of a military operation or gain some other advantage over your adversaries?
Rumsfeld: Of course, this conjures up Winston Churchill’s famous phrase when he said—don’t quote me on this, OK. I don’t want to be quoted on this, so don’t quote me—he said, sometimes the truth is so precious it must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies, talking about the invasion date and the invasion location, and indeed, they engaged not just in not talking about the date of the Normandy invasion or the location, whether it was to be Normandy Beach or just north off of Belgium, they actually engaged in a plan to confuse the Germans as to where it would happen. And they had a fake army under General Patton, and one thing and another.
That is a piece of history. And I bring it up just for the sake of background.
The answer to your question is no. I cannot imagine a situation. I don’t recall that I’ve ever lied to the press. I don’t intend to. And it seems to me that there will not be reason for it. There are dozens of ways to avoid having to put yourself in a position where you’re lying. And I don’t do it. And [Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs Victoria Clarke] won’t do it. And [her deputy] Admiral Quigley won’t do it.
Reporter: That goes for everybody in the Department of Defense?
Rumsfeld: You’ve got to be kidding.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 16:46:03
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quote:
I don't know what you were watching Owen.
I only read a news report Simon, they showed one photo of the statue up so close and the impression it left me with was that the square was filled with celebrating Iraqis. I would imagine a proper journalist would mention that of the millions in Baghdad only about 75 showed up. Shit I've had more than that in my apartment.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 16:54:42
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The lasting impression I got was that probably more people would have liked to have turn up, but were scared to even come out of their homes. Anyway, it shows you can't dismiss all major news sources like that, I think - the coverage was fair and balanced on this occasion.
Out of interest, what other news sources do you use (as opposed to the major ones we've been discussing?). I'm guessing t'interweb, and I can always use more websites to browse in my constant battle against actually doing my work.
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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therewererumours
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1240 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 17:00:08
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Ummm, my only addition to this debate is that my parents are both nurses?
Join the Cult of  |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 17:11:55
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Not so much websites as particular writers: Robert Fisk who writes for the Independent is great (his stories on the Saddam statue are worth looking at), Greg Palast, Mickey Z, Michael C Ruppert (the guy who pretty much lost CIA Director John Deutsch his job and promised post in the White House after publicly confronting him with evidence of CIA heroin operations), Howard Zinn, William Blum, Michael Parenti, David Icke (I realise he's Englands' laughingstock but he has a book on Sep 11 called Alice In Wonderland is an amazing piece of journalism), Carissa Conti, Stuart Wilde, Alfred McCoy and Laura Knight-Jadczyk, a quantumphysicist who exposes controlsystems in her spare time.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 19:17:26
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(Newo, thank you for that list. And thank you Cheesypants for asking.)
It's very recently been determined that this is a stoopid paper. It scored -1 bajillionmcsquiggety points on the Research Paper IQ Test. |
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therewererumours
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1240 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 19:47:40
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Owen should get the title of "David Vincent" on this forum.
Join the Cult of |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 12:51:42
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I think a title of "quantumphysicist who exposes controlsystems in his spare time" would be good.
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 06:11:44
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P.S. John Pilger is another fine journalist.
Llamadance, sorry for hijacking your thread for so long. My feelings on ways that men and women think differently or are more or less intelligent than each other is I don't put them in separate boxes like that, there are enough divisions in the world already - I'd prefer to concentrate on what we have in common, especially with things as fluid as states of mind.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 12:48:22
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What constitutes intelligence anyway?
Its not recollection, I think Dean once told me its the capacity to understand.
I like that.
If it comes to efficiency its women hands down.
I can do 6 things at once and my husband can't remember to pick up a loaf of bread...
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Don't believe the hype. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 13:08:49
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Well personally I think you're wrong dead C. Let me finish these crisps and I'll explain why.
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 13:11:07
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Smart people don't get in bar fights but stupid people don't build hydrogen bombs.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Intelligence - Men vs. Women
