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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

USA
9168 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2005 : 14:51:44

I haven't had a chance to read the forum much in the past week, and when I do read it, I always try to go in order, so I've only recently gotten up to speed on this. I didn't see the requests for little girls in the thread in question, nor did I know the whole thing had been deleted until some time after the fact. I don't particularly care one way or the other about that thread, but there are larger issues here, and I thought I'd offer my opinions, even though I'm sure pretty much everyone else is sick of discussing this by now.

I have noticed somewhat of an undercurrent of objectification around here. Certainly not from everybody, but it's there. And a fair amount of the Beautiful Women thread WAS made up of pictures of people with the Generally Unattainable Model Body Type, often with no indication as to who the women actually were.

That said, another undercurrent, and perhaps a more disturbing one, is the men vs. women thing. It's just something that I don't recall having seen much on other forums. How many threads have there been in the recent past about the differences between men and women? Then there was that trend about a month ago of starting "men only" and "women only" threads, which I'm sure wasn't meant to be taken entirely seriously, but it still kind of bugged me. In an early post on this thread, Tre mentioned something about "a difference in the two threads and that is as simple as the difference between men and women." Now, there ARE differences between men and women, and we should feel free to discuss them, but I don't think it's reasonable to dictate forum policy based on them. Regardless of why the Beautiful Men thread was started, it seemed to work out to pretty much the same thing as the Women one. Mind you, I'm not calling for the Men thread to be deleted, just suggesting that the decision of what to delete might not have been entirely fair. I can kind of understand it, though, since I'm coming at it from the perspective of a man who doesn't want to be associated with the unenlightened attitudes of my fellows. I think people with this perspective are sometimes inclined to overcompensate in the opposite direction.

As for whether porn warps people's minds, I think it depends on the person. I'm not into porn, personally, but I'm not opposed to it, as long as it doesn't involve really messed-up stuff (rape, bestiality, pedophilia, etc.). I'm sure it has adverse effects on some people, and not on others. I suppose that, as usual, moderation is the key. But I guess I'm really not all that qualified to speak on this issue. Taking it to the broader issue of objectification in general, it's definitely a real problem, but I certainly don't think everyone who looks at naked pictures of women they don't know is a chauvinist pig, either.

EDIT: Regarding Floop's banning, I think it's pretty much inevitable that, after a moderator makes an arbitrary rule, someone is going to respond by intentionally breaking that rule. I've seen it several times, and the thing is, the actual rule-breaking is rarely offensive. As far as I can tell, it's done primarily to rile up the moderator (or whoever). And as long as it's in good fun and isn't hurting anybody, who cares? Have we, as a forum, really declined to the point where we need to abandon common sense in favor of the Rule of Law?

And finally:

quote:
Rights are always curtailed in times of war, and this is a time of war

And isn't it incredibly convenient that the same politicians who decided we're at war are the ones who are working to limit people's rights?

I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied.

Edited by - VoVat on 07/08/2005 14:58:12

Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos

Canada
4496 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2005 : 22:44:05

Wish you were here a few days ago...well said.

"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been

Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~

Belize
5305 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2005 : 08:28:19

well this is definatately an interesting discussion and definately interesting because everyone has their own unique perspective.

To clear things up I don't think there was actual child pono... just some possible teen pics.. of which of course the could be of age too.

(to digress...teen porn is in a way child porn because although the women physically look like women...they often times are taken advantage of in that situation and are not fully making that decision as an adult).

And like OMIACC I really don't have time to get into the details of this... it's way too much time.

My perspecitve... the focus of this forum is Frank... and all things Frank. It's a time when fans should be rallying to support Honeycomb... a metaphor would be a bride on her wedding day should be the center of attention.

I really could care less what people post unless it's what vovat says... it involves kids, animimals or non consentual violence. It's nice to be polite to people in this enviroment not to post more than PG13 pics unless they are warned b/c a lot of us look at this at work.

I am really not sure why this became a issue of feminist debate. It's great that people are taking up a feminist cause. I am a feminist myself. Actually a part of feminism does support pornography, women as stripppers and prostitutes. They say that these empower women and as long as women choose this option and are given other career options to choose from that's their choice and it can be empowering...so in my opinion this is not a black and white issue... this is not a genter issue... this is just a persoanal perspective. So one take on this situation would be ... it is inherently sexist to assume that any picture objectifies women other than the woman in the picture herself.

Another interesting thing to consider... was the pictures of beautiful men thread objectifying men... usually this is a more subtle and accepted form of sexism...recently men have been facing increased social pressure to attain a certain physique or what not... leading to eating disorders and what not. I too well know this one guy friend I knew since grade school killed himself after years of batteling eating disorder issues and self esteem issues about five years ago.

I don't bring these up to judge these threads... I posted in both... so it's not a big deal. I'm just posting these things to illustrate how complex gender issues are.

So what I am trying to say... we all view this world in terms of our ...gender... sexual orientation...culture...racial...spiritual...economic and socio economic lenses... each perscription is unique... that's what makes us beautiful and so let's cherish the fact that in all our diversity... it's Frank that brings us together.

I would have gotten into this earlier... but I am trying to avoid getting into a big debate on feminism and freedom of speech because it would go on forever and really right now the reason why I come here is because of Frank. Normally I would welcome this free speech and feminist debate... but right now I just want to have fun and focus on Honeycomb and this special time.

That said... I support Dave and his decisions... he's the leader...he probably knows more than we do about the situation.

I do see how people's feelings were hurt too. I hope people can see beyond this and come back and particiapte in the form to focus on Honeycomb Frank Black and his music... man if we could still have commeraterie after the 2004 election... this shouldn't stop us now.

I hope people refocus on Frank right now... we should be out there requesting his songs and chatting about Honeycomb.

Edited by - Daisy Girl on 07/09/2005 09:09:11

VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

USA
9168 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2005 : 09:08:56

quote:
It's nice to be polite to people in this enviroment not to post more than PG13 pics unless they are warned b/c a lot of us look at this at work.

Yeah, exactly. This is one of many areas where I feel differently in principle than I do on a more practical level. In principle, I don't care if people post naked pictures, as long as there's nothing illegal about them. In practice, though, I've looked at this forum in public places, so I think it's better to keep nudity off the forum. In other words, I don't think people necessarily SHOULD get worked up about naked pictures, but it's obviously true that people DO. I'm inclined to think the uptight nature of society actually makes a lot of the problems we've been discussing here worse, but that's really another topic altogether.

I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied.

Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~

Belize
5305 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2005 : 09:58:16

very true... :)

lol....

that and we do have younger members here so we want to keep things cool so they feel comfortable coming on here and hopefully their parents wouldn't ban them from coming on here...but that's another issue too.

Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos

Canada
4496 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2005 : 10:21:24

re: beautiful men thread

All you gotta do is compare the two threads to see the difference.

With the women one, there's a lot of skin, and particularly narrow perspective of body shapes that are 'appreciated'. Discussion was almost entirely focused on their physical aspects.

With the men's thread, there wasn't much attempt to mimic or display nudity, all body shapes were represented, and there's a significant amount of discussion about the *person*.

I simply cannot compare the two threads. Other than the title, they are completely dissimilar.

As mentioned, it was started 'in jest', and in response to the overt sexism and huge gender bias represented in the 'women' thread.

"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been

Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =

United Kingdom
17125 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2005 : 11:09:33

I'm surprised any of the women here want that sexist pig floop back then ; )

Or maybe they don't. The plot thickens.

[strokes chin]

Don't believe the type!

new_floop
- FB Fan -

14 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 : 17:37:47

quote:
Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey

I'm surprised any of the women here want that sexist pig floop back then ; )

that was the old floop homers. it's true, i was a sexist. i used to take pleasure in looking at the female form, both in pictures online and even in real life. if i saw an "attractive" woman walk down the street, the old me might have thought to himself, "wow, she is attractive" or "i think i'd enjoy having sexual intercourse with her, because i find her to be physically appealing" ..

but not anymore.. with the help of my support group (and doctors) and this advanced self-electric-shock-therapy system, i've made substantial progression. it can only get better from here

danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
2792 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 : 19:53:12

not so fast old floop you have a long road ahead of you, pig.

scruvs
= Cult of Ray =