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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2005 : 07:25:58
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downloading a comercially available album of a not so mainstream artist isn't that much of a rebellion is it? people that compulsively download hundreds of albums that will never listen to, ruin the party for the others that want to exchange stuff that actually like (like we used to pass audio cassetes between friends 10-15 years ago) not to mention stuff that cannot be found in other places like bootlegs or videos. and then you have the riaa that shuts down ezt and stg because they see in p2p the archnemesis of music industry. how do you expect that they act in a different way if the fans post at official forums that they download an album, not a rare one, not even a leaked one but one that can be found easily for 15$ new or for much less in ebay if you have to save money at all costs. that's why winMX sucks nowadays and it's full of crap, viruses and with many servers shut down or monitored. eventually p2p will be outlawed and it will return to be the funland of the geek afficionados, the rest will be ituned. way to go rebel
 i bash newbies for a living |
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MMD
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
233 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2005 : 10:37:36
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Without downloading albums I would have not become a Pixies fan, I now own all of their released CD's (except best ofs), I've seen them live and bought a DiscLive CD. Without downloading albums I would never have become a Frank Black and the Catholics fan who's CD's I own all of and I have also seen live. Today I downloaded the final mix of the new FB album which I will probably buy on the release day. This is just another example of how downloading is killing the record industry.
It is very unrealistic to think that I could own as many albums as I download (over a thousand) in my current financial situaion (student). By not downloading music I'm not magically able to afford more albums, the only person who would lose out is me.
I say go out there and download as much music as you can get your hands on, then buy things that you are able to and that you especially enjoy.
“Not since Orson Welles had one man so many fingers in so many pies, and been the chef as well. And then looked like he went and ate them all. The guy was out of control.” |
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scobes
- FB Fan -
3 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 05:15:33
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| remember when the record industry said home taping would kill it? and then when cd burners came out they were going to kill it? anyone see a pattern here? |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 17:10:18
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Yeah. The record industry makes more comebacks than Rocky and Jesus combined!
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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ScottP
= Cult of Ray =
USA
618 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 17:30:33
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Very interesting topic that I didn't know existed.
But, something that keeps coming up is the statement, "I wouldn't have nearly as many recordings if not for illegal DLing because..... I can't afford it". This just doesn't make any fucking sense to me. Am I missing something? How many thieves could go free from prison right now if this defense was legit? Maybe my old age (39) has me missing some new way of thinking.
Ohhhh, my hair is getting good in the back. |
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spunXtain
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 17:31:02
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Soulseek FTW
--
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 19:04:09
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To play devil's advocate, again, I have to say the the record industry as a whole has to accept that the internet has permanently changed the rules, whether they like it or not. You cannot sue every kid and their mom to get your obsolete way. File sharing is here to stay, no arguments allowed! That's not a justification for stealing though. I think that the new services like Yahoo Music Unlimited and Rhapsody, and to a lesser extent, iTunes and eMusic is a step in the right direction. Eventually, everyone will probably stop buying licenses, (that's right, your CD is a license), and start paying for a subscription to music...after a decade or two, the dinosaur artists who are not willing to adapt will eventually die off, and the the artists that "get" the internet, (err..mammals?), are the ones who will survive.
P.S. Stop stealing music. Even if you're poor. |
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ScottP
= Cult of Ray =
USA
618 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2006 : 17:23:07
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Don't nobody steal nothing. Even if your poor. Bad Ju-Ju.
Ohhhh, my hair is getting good in the back. |
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Suicide_Samurai
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
431 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 12:38:02
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Oh no, not this thread again..
Since I made this, I came to the realisation that Winmx was rubbish
and Limewire had infact ALL of Frank's albums on it. By then I had
already bought all his albums so no need to worry. I did however, "steal"
Honeycomb off bittorrent. Sorry.
"stealing" in reference to pirating is the biggest misuse of a word
I've ever seen. It's not taking money away from someone, it's
just preventing someone from getting what they might have got if
you bought their product.
Hollywood and other companies only associated the
word "pirating" with "stealing" to bleed every cent from their
products as they possibly can. It's all to do with greed. You
shouldn't let them manipulate you so easily and you should
come up with your own views instead of suscribing to the ones
the media has already layed out for you.
People who download stuff, then buy it if they like it must have a
conscious of a sickenly pure saint. What reward do they think is
in it for them?
Come on guys, lets stop the pretense, we all do it. It's only bad
because the media told you it's bad.
I thought about myspace and I really got me down  |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 13:36:02
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| I was thinking about responding to this intelligently but you're sounding like a troll. |
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Suicide_Samurai
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
431 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 13:44:38
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| I didn't expect anyone to agree with me, but just because you have a difference view doesn't make my own any less valid. The fact that you don't have any points to make, only to dish out childish insults, makes you sound like a troll. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 13:50:39
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You're expecting consensus even as you belittle those who disagree by essentially accusing them of being unable to think for themselves?
No, it's not theft in the traditional sense. I agree and probably shouldn't have used the word. It's piracy. And no, if you were never going to buy it anyway then it doesn't cost anyone anything for you to do so. But, my self-righteous friend:
If you're not interested in it, why download it? Obviously because you're interested in it. I have no problem downloading/sharing because I think it generates more interest in the album and also the artists. This is based on the presumption that people who enjoy it will purchase it, since, yes, it costs the artists time and money to produce that work of art. So while you're not taking that money from FB's pocket, you are still not giving him what he deserves for your enjoyment of the art he has invested time and money to produce. How long do you suppose he could continue to finance and publish this art if everyone did as you do?
People who download stuff to try and then buy are people who think that the artist deserves to earn a living making art and want to support him. People who don't want to see people like FB working in a warehouse stacking crates again.
Yes, it's not black and white. I have downloaded stuff and not bought. I didn't like it, why would I buy it? I've downloaded stuff where I liked a couple tracks but not the album in general. I didn't buy it. Definite gray area. And yes, I've downloaded stuff I liked but didn't love and haven't bought. But I also stopped listening to it after a few spins because it wasn't great. Still, gray area again. As for downloading stuff I really liked/loved and not buying it, no, haven't done it. There's stuff I have recently downloaded that I haven't gone to buy yet, but will next time I'm at the record store. For reasons outlined above.
I (and others like me) are not saints and do not purport to be. If I was, I suppose I'd follow the letter of the law and never download, even to sample. Or speed. Or fold kitties. I do what I feel is right.
If you don't feel it's right to support artists when they make something you get a lot of enjoyment out of, fine - perhaps you think all art should be free (in which case I say, great, but how and how old are you?). If you think that in some way, you just listening to them helps them, then we're no longer talking a moral issue, just an issue of yes/no, and the answer is no - you're not helping.
Does it hurt them? Only if you were ever going to buy the CDs, which, given you're already a fan, is arguably yes - you would if you couldn't pirate them. So, back to the question, are you hurting them? Yes. You're taking money that WOULD'VE been in their pocket and keeping it in yours. Just because you were the one that was going to give it to them in exchange for goods doesn't make it right.
There's a farmer, who has a cow, and some guy who would like milk. The farmer offers to sell him the cow, and the guy says he'd like to taste it first. Great. Milk is good, he buys. Milk isn't, he doesn't. Now take the scenario where the guy tries the milk, likes it, and says no to the farmer. That's fine too. But NOW, suppose this man, who would like milk, decides to say no because he can sneak in and get it instead. He sneaks into the farmer's field every night and takes milk from the cow instead of buying it. Is that fair? After all, the farmer has to put in money to feed the cow, keep it healthy, and so on. AND the farmer didn't get money he would've gotten if the guy had bought the cow.
Perhaps you'd say that's fair (it is, after all, what you're insisting), but what if everyone did that? Not only does it mean that the farmer's not making any money from the cow he's paying to keep healthy and fed (and taking the time to ensure these things), but he is losing money as a result. Eventually, the farmer gives up the cow.
Now, I agree that the MPAA, RIAA, and, it seems, every 'IA' out there is missing the boat and really pissing on what could be the best means of promoting music since radio came along. Well, perhaps moreso for music than movies, since music is more likely to be viewed/listened to more than once. Their greed is blinding them - that and they still want to sell the same garbage when clearly, more open access to music means a demand for higher quality.
But guess who feeds their greed? Users who do exactly what the RIAA is talking about. Download INSTEAD of buying.
I'm not advocating buying albums you don't like. But if you're listening to it quite a bit and therefore probably liking it quite a bit too, how can you justify not buying it to yourself? If you milk the cow dry, then thirsty or not, someday you won't be able to get a drink.
 "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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Suicide_Samurai
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
431 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 14:11:54
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Let’s keep things in context. No thieves in prison, no cows.
Lets go back to the "I pirate because I have no money" argument. It's a perfectly valid point in my opinion. If a person has little money to spend on nice things like music, why, why, why do you propose they punish themselves and starve themselves of such things as Mr. Black's music? I'm not saying it's the same thing as stealing a tv out of someone’s house. Once again, keep it in context.
Aswell as music, I have also downloaded a handful of films, all of which I have enjoyed. After having watched them, do you propose I go and buy these films? No, we can't buy every DVD of every film we like, we'd have hundreds. Do you propose I go and rent the film? Of course not, I've just watched the bloody thing. What to do? Go and rent it and force myself to watch it? No. Why? Because no one is looking.
Of course no one is looking. But people do do these things, maybe to settle their conscious. It's the only reason I can think of. They can't sleep until they've paid off what they've stolen. I'm sorry I don't have this conscious. Ugly things happen in the world and pirating isn't one of them, so my conscious is clear because I don't contribute to any of them.
I could stem off onto a rant about vegetarianism, but I won't. But it's all the same thing. Some people think they are just too pure for this world. They may not say it--or even consciously think it--but that's the reason. |
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MMD
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
233 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2006 : 18:27:15
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Consider a situation where there is no piracy and a person has little money, say they can't afford a specific release from an artist and so don't buy it or get to listen to it. Now introduce piracy into the situation, the person downloads and listens to and enjoys the release. The direct effect on the artist is nothing, positive or negative however the direct effect on the person is a positive one. Actually indirectly the person may get into the artist and if they do have some expendable income they might buy the next release or a previous one or go see the artist live if they come to town, maybe buy some merchandise or get some of their friends into the artist and they in turn might buy stuff so potentially the artist has a lot to gain from piracy. Obviously this effect will help smaller unknown artists more than pop mega stars we are already saturated with (which I feel is a good thing since then music gains exposure through quality rather than who has the biggest marketing budget).
Now I'm certainly not saying that if you can afford to buy some CD's now and then but you don't that it's ok and I'm not saying people should illegally download all their music. People who have the kind of mentality that they would have bought something but if they can just get it for free then why bother are pretty bad people but at the other extreme anyone who only listens to music they have legally obtained and purposely goes without for some arbitrary moral reason that makes no sense is pretty stupid.
The middle ground however morally I have no problem whatsoever occupying. I buy CD's, a lot more than the average person (and I would say this is down to me being exposed to more music, through downloading it) but being a student it's just not possible for me to buy as much music as I want. A quick check shows me I have about 1200 albums on my computer which if I had obtained all of it legally would have cost me around £12,000 ($24,000) or more which is the amount of money I lived on for three years, of course I could easily live without a large amount of that music and I just keep it around for completeness but then I certainly wouldn't have bought those albums on CD either.
Personally there are 2 main reasons I will buy a CD of something over downloading it. Firstly the moral obligation or the selfless reason, I try to buy mainly music that is from smaller bands that really need it, bands like 65daysofstatic that work full time jobs along side their music careers. Secondly the greedy reason, albums that I really enjoy from bands that I feel it wont make a difference to whether I buy it or not for example Pink Floyd, it’s going to make practically no difference at all if I buy Dark Side Of The Moon or not but it’s nice to have it on my shelf, to own a physical product with liner notes and also for the tiny improvement in sound quality over a decent mp3. I feel like most of my Frank Black purchases are closer to the greedy reason, especially since the Pixies reunion (although maybe the Catholics deserve to be thrown a bone). For the record I own every non live album the Pixies and FB have released except for BLD and DW (which I intend to buy someday) and HC (which I just didn’t like as much as his other stuff, although I’ll probably end up buying it some day anyway) and I had all of this and a lot more downloaded before I bought them.
When you're talking about information or intellectual property where the cost of one more person having the product is nothing you cannot use words like theft, the artist has not been deprived of anything and that is the distinction between theft and piracy, organisations like the RIAA and MPAA deliberately use incorrect words like theft or steal in their propaganda to try and hype up the 'evil' of piracy but it's just spin. Another deliberate mistake they use to try and sway opinion to their cause is claiming that every time an album is pirated a sale us lost, which is bullshit. Like in my example, not everyone who downloads something would have bought it, clearly that would only be the case if the only form of piracy was pirates selling copies or albums for the same as retail price. I could take any old shitty CD and put it in the shops at full price and it might not sell a single copy but I could go get a huge stack and hand them out free on the street and I could get rid of every single copy easily, somehow the RIAA wouldn’t be able to tell you why that is, apparently it’s a mystery to them.
Anyway in closing, holy crap how did I manage to type so much crap.
“Not since Orson Welles had one man so many fingers in so many pies, and been the chef as well. And then looked like he went and ate them all. The guy was out of control.” |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 00:42:03
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| i'm just happy to give Frank my £16.99 if it means he can go to Starbucks and buy a coffee en route to recording his next new batch of songs. Heck! Maybe that cash I gave him in return for his music put fuel in his car or bought a bag of dog food. |
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jtanner
- FB Fan -
89 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 09:08:02
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| Wish we could download Starbucks for free. |
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ScottP
= Cult of Ray =
USA
618 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 10:21:59
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I have carefully read each of Suicide's postings and still don't understand how its OK to take something you can't afford. It's missing me. Guess I'll just go back to my too pure, sickenly saintly, life, devoted to treating others how I wish to be treated.
Ohhhh, my hair is getting good in the back. |
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Suicide_Samurai
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
431 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 10:53:51
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If you're searching my posts looking for my justification then you probably won't find it. That's not what I'm trying to do. What you should be seeing is that I realise it's taking something you're not paying for, of course I do, but just what reward is in it for you by refusing to take it? There is no reward. There is nobody watching you. No one will ever know but you.
How’s this for an analogy that works?
Once upon a time there was a farmer with a cow. The cow was free too keep, for it was a magical cow and it required no food. The farmer came to realise that there was an endless supply of milk coming out of the cow. It didn't even require milking. All that was required was for the townspeople to log on and get their milk.
Seeing as the farmer was already stinking rich, he was not blinded by his greed and decided he would give the poor townspeople--who could not afford milk of their own--milk for free. Besides, he already had a more than steady income from all the milk he sold with sleeve notes and case.
Thus, the world was a happier place that wasn't ruled by the dollar. |
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jtanner
- FB Fan -
89 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:15:15
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Good analogy, Suicide Samurai.
ScottP, you stole "Ohhhh, my hair is getting good in the back" from Frank Zappa. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:21:38
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and lo smaller less established farmers became bankrupt or their farms never had chance to get hold because everyone got their milk from the magic cow and the new exciting flavours of milk these other farmers had developed were never known to the townspeople. Many farmers became corporate bankers tired of working for nothing and when the magic cow died and there was no more milk for there were no farmers left to provide for the people.
I'm still not sure of the point though. I download music as a screen, I buy the good stuff I don't buy the bad stuff. Not so much ruled by the pound (or dollar if you so choose) but resourcing it better. |
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jtanner
- FB Fan -
89 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:23:17
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| Magic cows can't die. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:25:03
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the magic cow was killed by pirates
pick holes in my analogy why don't you, maybe the magic cow is U2? you wouldn't like that, if the magic cow was U2 and all other cows couldn't give you milk because of U2 |
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jtanner
- FB Fan -
89 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:27:15
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| Let them eat cake. |
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Suicide_Samurai
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
431 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:28:46
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| The magic cow will only become stronger over time, and over time it will become accepted. The magic cow shall bellow through the wintry midnight fog "ye should have listened to Sa-moo-rai..." |
Edited by - Suicide_Samurai on 03/05/2006 11:29:45 |
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ScottP
= Cult of Ray =
USA
618 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by jtanner
Good analogy, Suicide Samurai.
ScottP, you stole "Ohhhh, my hair is getting good in the back" from Frank Zappa.
Yes, but I also bought Frank Zappa a bowl of delicious Cheerios for his trouble by paying for that wonderful record.
Ohhhh, my hair is getting good in the back. |
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Suicide_Samurai
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
431 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:45:12
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| And just remember where the milk on that cereal came from. |
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pixiestu
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2564 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:48:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Suicide_Samurai
What you should be seeing is that I realise it's taking something you're not paying for, of course I do, but just what reward is in it for you by refusing to take it? There is no reward. There is nobody watching you. No one will ever know but you.
...unless you start a thread about it on the artist's fansite.
"The arc of triumph" |
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jtanner
- FB Fan -
89 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 12:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by ScottP
quote:
Originally posted by jtanner
Good analogy, Suicide Samurai.
ScottP, you stole "Ohhhh, my hair is getting good in the back" from Frank Zappa.
Yes, but I also bought Frank Zappa a bowl of delicious Cheerios for his trouble by paying for that wonderful record.
Ohhhh, my hair is getting good in the back.
Credit Zappa with the quote and reference the CD so others might buy it...
"Ohhhh, my hair is getting good in the back." -Frank Zappa
(quoted from the purchased Rykodisc CD, Frank Zappa/The Mothers Of Invention
"We're Only In It For The Money" [RCD 10503]) |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 12:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by MMD
When you're talking about information or intellectual property where the cost of one more person having the product is nothing you cannot use words like theft, the artist has not been deprived of anything and that is the distinction between theft and piracy, organisations like the RIAA and MPAA deliberately use incorrect words like theft or steal in their propaganda to try and hype up the 'evil' of piracy but it's just spin.
So which one are you, a thief or a pirate? Just because the product isn't tangible doesn't mean it can't be stolen. (How much is your time worth? If your job didn't pay you for your time, assuming you don't work in a factory, it will not deprive anyone of anything, just ask Suicide_Samurai.) And how is it that YOU can decide if an artist deserves your gracious money or not? Who made you the artist's GOD? If you listen to their "product", pay for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Suicide_Samurai
I realise it's taking something you're not paying for, of course I do, but just what reward is in it for you by refusing to take it? There is no reward. There is nobody watching you. No one will ever know but you.
Call it whatever you want, it's still illegal to steal. The second half to your argument is left up to your god; (or what's left of your morals if you're atheist...) |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 13:07:05
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Is this magic cow like the one owned by the King of Mo, which produces ice cream instead of milk?
"If you doze much longer, then life turns to dreaming. If you doze much longer, then dreams turn to nightmares." |
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Doog
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1220 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 13:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
and lo smaller less established farmers became bankrupt or their farms never had chance to get hold because everyone got their milk from the magic cow and the new exciting flavours of milk these other farmers had developed were never known to the townspeople. Many farmers became corporate bankers tired of working for nothing and when the magic cow died and there was no more milk for there were no farmers left to provide for the people.
Brilliant.
Face it, music ISN'T a neccessity of life. You're not gonna die without it. It is, essentially a luxury. Don't try and justify it with this "oh but I'm too poor" bullshit. If you want something bad enough, you can afford it, just like every other luxury.
That isn't so much aimed at Suicide Samurai as much as at those cunts who just que up a record shop's worth of music on Soulseek, get it all, enjoy it immensly and don't pay a penny back to the people who gave them that pleasure. One of those people happens to be one of my best buds ever and it can cause a bit of unwanted friction..
www.myspace.com/doog = music
www.myspace.com/doogdoogdoog = emo |
Edited by - Doog on 03/05/2006 13:15:02 |
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Suicide_Samurai
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
431 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 13:22:34
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Yes, yes we know this. It's a luxury. My point? Why deny yourself of this luxury? Why punish yourself?
Imagine you could download food. Would you seriously go out and buy it from the supermarket still? If you would, you probably cry when you step on a worm. Ok food is a necessity, but that doesn't affect the point I'm making. I could use anything as an example.
By the way I TAKE IT WE ALL CREDIT OUR PORN ARTISTS AND BUY ALL THE PORN WE ENJOYED?!
Don't even try to deny it. |
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Doog
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1220 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 13:28:05
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I just download all the free trailers on the sites, que 'em up and imagine my own segues to make it a sexy whole.
And denying yourself something because it is illegal and losing people money? It's called being moral. Maybe you're just one of these jerks who does everything for personal gain, I dunno.
www.myspace.com/doog = music
www.myspace.com/doogdoogdoog = emo |
Edited by - Doog on 03/05/2006 13:31:16 |
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jtanner
- FB Fan -
89 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 13:29:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Suicide_Samurai
Yes, yes we know this. It's a luxury. My point? Why deny yourself of this luxury? Why punish yourself?
Imagine you could download food. Would you seriously go out and buy it from the supermarket still? If you would, you probably cry when you step on a worm. Ok food is a necessity, but that doesn't affect the point I'm making. I could use anything as an example.
By the way I TAKE IT WE ALL CREDIT OUR PORN ARTISTS AND BUY ALL THE PORN WE ENJOYED?!
Don't even try to deny it.
Excellent. |
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Suicide_Samurai
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
431 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 16:04:08
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I think if a musician would choose to have an extra tenner in his pocket than to share his music with one more fan, then that is one musician who shouldn't be in this business. That's what seperates Frank from Metallica. Probably.
I mean I know they could and should have both, but again it all comes back to money. People download much more albums than they could possible buy, but the musician should still prefer to share his music and not get payed than for no one to hear his music at all. |
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Devils Workshop On Winmx
