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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2005 : 20:40:27
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Ok, so i'm in a bit of a dilema.
My cousin/surrogate big brother is a writer in his spare time. He gave me his manuscript of his latest novel to read and to give him my thoughts on it. Well...
To start, its cliche city. Second of all, its a thinly veiled autobiography. Third of all, it is so based on his interests that unless you like Star Wars, you won't get half the book. Seriously. I am on page 75, and i really think that if i had to guess, there are 2.5 Star Wars references per page, if not more. I know he's trying to show the main character to be a big fan but i feel that if someone (ie. my girlfriend, who is supposed to read it next) is not a Star Wars fan, they wouldn't get through the first 5 pages.
So, this begs the question: do i say i love it (because it will probably never get published) and save his feelings/our friendship, or am i brutally honest and crush his feelings? Or do i compromise and give some criticism but hold back some?
Which leads to the bigger question - why do i always agree to read/listen to/watch friends' projects, when i know that i will not like them? Why can't i just let them do their thing and not get involved? I mean, sure, i have talented friends whose work i love - but then there are those friends that you know you just won't enjoy what they do. I don't know, i'm rambling.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 20:44:46
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try to find something positive but also voice your problems with it. that's what i do.
i constantly have friends asking me to read their bad screenplays .. i think being honest is the best thing. but sometimes it's hard to be completely honest
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 20:45:51
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Kevin Smith is your cousin?
"Our Love is Rice and Beans and Horses Lard"  |
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WolfManMikeLonely
= Cult of Ray =
USA
936 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 20:45:59
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Don't sugar coat. Just be honest. They will respect you for it. Well probably not at first, not at all, but in the end they will appreciate the honesty, it's the only way they'll develop.
"Hey fuck you if you don't like it."
-Johnny Thunders
www.transposed.net |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 20:51:29
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When I was getting ready to do comedy (Open mike, no big deal), I tape recorded all of my jokes and would run them by people. I had confidence in my material but I wanted some honest input. It definately helped me before I ever went on stage. Maybe instead of saying "this is good" or "this sucks" you can make some suggestions. Is the book in general truly horrid? If he cut back on the Star Wars referances would it help? I say, be honest but point out what's good about it and see how that goes. If he can't handle the criticism he needs to look for another profession.
Good luck. Keep us updated.
----------------------
My motto in life: "If you looked like a sasquatch, and you lived like a sasquatch, and you knew from some frightening experiences that your appearance scared the daylights out of humans ... but you still wanted to interact with some humans, any humans at all, in circumstances posing the least threat to your naked backside ... what would you do?" |
Edited by - The King Of Karaoke on 01/19/2005 20:53:33 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 20:56:48
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To be honest, this sounds like my kind of script. Send it to me and I'll critique it for you. :)
Seriously though, I'd definitely go honest. He trusts you enough to give it to you hoping for an honest reply and that's what I'd give him (giving him a "oh, it's great" when it's not is hopefully not why he asked you). Brutual honesty is something that those who know me are aware I'm famous for, but I'd not go that route if you can avoid it. Better to do as Floop says and find nice ways of voicing your criticisms (not necessarily sugar coating, but certainly not saying, "This is the biggest piece of shit ever") and couch it with praise for any parts you did like. Softens the blow.
Unfortunately, this is also my policy with women. I don't recommend it but can't seem to stop. :)
 "Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 21:09:59
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Well, maybe you could be like... it seems like your audience is a hard core starwars fan.
Since I am not as hardcore as you, it went a little over my head.
But to a hardcore fan-- this would probably be right up his alley.
This way you get the point across like-- this isn't going to be a mass market hit, but a very specific audience might really apricate it.
Good luck... just listen to your heart and it will guide you in this discussion!!! |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 21:13:04
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No. Take my advice and all of your wildest dreams will come true!
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My motto in life: "If you looked like a sasquatch, and you lived like a sasquatch, and you knew from some frightening experiences that your appearance scared the daylights out of humans ... but you still wanted to interact with some humans, any humans at all, in circumstances posing the least threat to your naked backside ... what would you do?" |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 21:42:57
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i definetely am going to recommend cutting down the star wars stuff - and i'm going to use books he likes as guides, like high fidelity - a book completely about music obsession, but it never gets so detailed that if you AREN'T record obsessed you won't get it. also i'm going to suggest that the girl he falls for is NOT the captain of the cheerleading squad (seriously) and that it doesn't beging with the breakup of his not understanding girlfriend, but to mention that it just happened (again, similar to high fidelity). if you're going to cop something's style, cop a GOOD book's style is what i always say (well, i've never said it before, but i should).
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 21:43:44
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I agree with floop. Be honest but not brutal and to soften the blows try to find some parts that you like.
I have to read scientific papers for friends and colleagues before they get submitted for journals and sometimes they're terrible. I'm usually just honest and the papers come back to them covered in comments. My wife does the same to me to the point that I now hesitate to ask her to read my papers because I know I'll end up either pissed or thinking my paper is terrible. |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 22:13:01
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yeah, my cousin is really sensitive and i'm practically the only one who really encourages him to write, so i feel like i have to be supportive in some way - so i'm trying really hard (i'm writing the first of a few emails now) to be honest but positive.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 00:16:39
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Hornby's fever is even more obsessive than High Fidelity, but that's still a good book. That's what he might answer.
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cindy lou
- FB Fan -
141 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 02:41:06
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| none of it matters |
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cindy lou
- FB Fan -
141 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 02:48:30
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don't tell him anything... pretend you never read it... if he askes you, just ignore him. change the subject. vomit or sneeze you can even throw in a little fart if you like. ask him to play a game of dodgeball. that should smooth things out.
he knows better then you how good his book is.
Verse 1:
Fm Db Fm
What does it matter, a dream of love
Db
Or a dream of lies
Eb Ab
We're all gonna be the same place
C7
When we die
Fm Db
Your spirit don't leave knowing
Fm Db
Your face or your name
Eb
And the wind through your bones
Ab C7
Is all that remains
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 03:29:27
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I agree with what most people here have said. You have got to be honest (easier said than done) but to soften it with some positive aspects would be good. IF there are no positive aspects then it will have to be the brutal honesty. Good luck.
http://www.thefutureheads.co.uk/ |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 03:33:55
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If I were him, I'd want you to tell me the whole truth and nothing but. It's more helpful in the end, especially if he wants to go anywhere with that book. If he can't take it, then he shouldn't be a writer. Just make sure you ask questions to perhaps understand it more, and make suggestions as to how you think he could better it.
I guess I just wasn't made for these times. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 05:54:42
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It's tricky getting critiscm, it's somehow harder to take from loved ones. I used to get my ex to look over all of the work I was submitting and he was brutal and sometimes I couldn't help but resent that.
However... it's vital, without it people won't ever progress. If I'd have listened to Carolynanna I'd have got a 1st instead of a 2:1 for that essay... What actually pleased me most when I got the essay back were the lecturers remarks on it. She wrote
very good work, clearly written and well structured, the major points covered, could be more detailed in NHEJ and HR also the link between the DNA detection pathway and DNA repair mechanism could enhance the essay
Which absolutely thrilled me because I knew what I'd missed out (1500 word limit bites) and I now have a solid guidance for my next piece of work, instead of a mark and flailing around in the dark on the next one.
Your cousin will be sensitive because it's his baby but you have to be honest because if he takes his writing seriously he'll want to get somewhere with it. If you tell him it's great and he continues to get rejected and write the same way he never will.
Be brave, I know you can!
you
me
we used to be on fire |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 06:56:42
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The other thing to remember is that he may not agree with you, which is okay. Your job is just to make your feelings known, not to prove you're right. This sounds obvious, but it's easy for discussion about a potential problem to turn into an argument over who's right.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 10:22:33
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I feel for you Brian.
I have had to do that a lot lately, the most difficult being reviewing and helping to edit my cousin's book of poetry. Through multiple random revisions. Over the last year.
I feel pretty weird mentioning it, but it would not be quite so difficult if she were stable (for lack of a better discrete description). As it is I am scared to death of saying something the wrong way and hurting her, and I was the main impetus for her putting a book together in the first place. I am of the brutally honest variety, and it takes a lot of effort to put things diplomatically but not appear to be hiding anything (she's very bright). She's actually a great poetry writer, but she kind of switches back and forth between wonderful poetry and then stuff that's way too cliche and self-referential to be good. One buffer might be to ask who else is helping to review the work. I asked my cousin to ask some people she knows, both in her family and maybe some people she knows in the profession. She told me she's sent the manuscript to her old poetry professor, but hasn't gotten a response. The she tells me that she's not sure she should try to publish now because there are things about her old prof in it. So I don't know what to believe.
I agree with most of the rest here in thinking it's best to be honest but it will take a lot of effort to put it in a constructive way. You have to kind of speak from a point of your good feelings for them, if that makes any sense.
Lon the Fisherman has wooden legs, but real feet. |
Edited by - apl4eris on 01/20/2005 10:30:18 |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 11:16:36
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thanks everyone - i sent off my review of the first 75 pages this morning, and i think i put it diplomatically enough to not get him angry/upset. he's super sensetitve and i am brutally honest, so i was trying to marry those two ideas together in my email - to be honest but respect his feelings and put it all in a constructive manner. we'll see how he takes it...
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 11:47:40
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A bit late here, wanting to echo the general sentiment here
(be honest and point out both positives and negatives) and to ask what the hell is NHEJ and HR also the link between the DNA detection pathway and DNA repair mechanism? That Frank Black has got some smart fans. And I am not one of them.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 12:18:34
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(none homologous end joining and homologous recombination, the two methods for repairing double strand breaks in DNA, the detection pathway and repair mechanisms thing is just that I should have added a paragraph about how breaks/mutations are detected and relayed to the repair machinery - obvioulsy not that smart if I forgot them!)
you
me
we used to be on fire |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 12:38:13
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Which is why I am not going for a Ph.D. in...in...see I don't even know
what your fucking degree is in!
Some people don't just have great taste in music and good boobs,
they've also got smarts.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Perk
- FB Fan -
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 20:24:24
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Whats his email addy ?
I'll send him a link to this thread.
Problem solved.
Don't sweat the petty things
and don't pet the sweaty things |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 20:31:39
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Perk, you funny thing!!
You know I wish I could remember, but I think at one point I remember hearing you should say X positive things for every negative/constructive thing.
Another thing thats coming back to me, don't use the word weakness. Use the word opportunity instead.
Good luck Brian!!!!  |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 21:02:33
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well, the first batch of comments was taken well - i could tell that he didn't totally agree, but hell, thats not my problem. so i can be a bit more, ahem, honest next time i guess. thanks guys!
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 00:59:57
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good job well done that man!
constructive criticism is a great thing!
(Kathryn - MSc. Biomedical basis of disease (BSc. Biomolecular Sciences)
you
me
we used to be on fire |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 03:05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Another thing thats coming back to me, don't use the word weakness. Use the word opportunity instead.
Good luck Brian!!!!
Bloody management speak!
http://www.thefutureheads.co.uk/ |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 07:40:15
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I was thinking about this thread today so I went to see the lecturer (lovely mental polish woman) who marked my essay and thanked her for her remarks on the paper and told her it was really nice to get such constructive criticism.
She looked quite pleased, but she also looked at me like I might need to get out more.
Ho hum...
you
me
we used to be on fire |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 10:24:03
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Brian, when someone gives me stuff to read I don´t find all that exciting (happens less and less these days, I expect people to give me high quality and hey! now they do), I find if I´m anything other than frank without couching it in pleasantries, they just end up giving me more garbage to read. Singlespaced garbage at that.
--
If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 10:47:56
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Miss Kittie, maybe your should have gone to see one of the
invigilators instead? Ha ha ... I am so funny.
Cough cough...
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Friendly Criticism
