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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
 Posted - 01/16/2005 : 07:02:18
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Monsieur said he is thinking about starting a concentration camp thread. I am not sure if he is serious and I don't wish to steal his idea. However, this reminded me of a (fun and polite) argument I had yesterday about Prince Harry, who dressed up as a Nazi at a costume party. Usually, I don't care about the
shenanigans of the Brit. Royals, or other royals, but I find this
interesting. My friend strongly disagreed with my assertion that
Harry ought to be taken to see a concentration camp or two.
My friend said I was being politically correct. I think that this is a case where education and sensitivity might help.
What do you think?
I am editing this to add: Do you think what Prince Harry did was bad? Or has it been blown out of proportion?
 I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
Edited by - kathryn on 01/16/2005 07:05:58 |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 07:43:51
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Well Prince Philip was educated in a school in Schloss Salem run by the Hitler Youth so Harryboy´s just keeping up the family tradition.
http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/naziroot.htm
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 07:56:48
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Also Kathryn, next time someone tells you you´re being politically correct place your thumb on your nose, waggle your fingers and stick your tongue out at them. The notion of political-correctness is there for no other reason than to trim controversial ideas from the thoughtstream, it´s a form of mutual hypnotism when we agree with someone who accuses us of it, or of the lack of it. There´s enough thoughtpolice in the world without friends acting as them to each other.
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 08:07:19
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Good points, Newo. I agree, esp. with what you said about the thought police.
I am interested in whether people think Prince Harry did something bad or
was just having harmless fun.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 08:19:26
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well, this is a classic case of the person being the problem, not the issue.
if i dressed up as a Nazi (or when Eric Cartman did it on South Park), it would raise a few eyebrows, and i'd probably be called an asshole BUT i wouldn't be forced into a tour of a camp. but becuase harry is a prince, he has to understand that every single thing he does will be poked, proded and torn apart by the press. should he be held to higher standards than i am? no! is he? yes!
i don't know if the kid was just trying to be funny (in a very unfunny way) or whether he really is an anti-semite asshole. i think its probably the former.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 08:31:27
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I don´t think it is possible for putting on a Nazi uniform to fall under the definition of harmless fun, especially when it´s a public figure with lots of kids his age who might think highly of him, (by the way, the Windsors were only called the Windsors from 1917 onwards, before that it was Saxe-Coburg. They´re about as English as sauerkraut.), so especiallyespecially when it´s a publicrelations exercise by a family with an immense Nazi background saying This is who we are right in front of your noses and you don´t even see it.
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 08:50:02
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I don't see how a person can don a swastika without cringing.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 10:07:49
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He is trying to draw attention because he is the second.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 10:15:05
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Perhaps that's it! Perhaps it's a cry for help!
Many issues come to play here: the undue attention that celebrities get;
the different standars to which different people are held; the question of
whether the Royals serve any useful function in modernity; the very idea
of political correctness; etc.
Yeah, Brian, you're right, he's getting more attention and negative press than a less visible, regular person would. I am not one for "re-education" but it strikes me as yucky that anybody would not find it creepy to wear a swastika.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 06:10:57
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I would guess that he did it 'cos he was being an ass. He seems like one at times, but then it's hard to judge when the only perception of him we can form is from what our terrible British media choose to report on him.
He's still young and hopefully he will learn, like all kids really. It was a very stupid thing to do though.
http://www.thefutureheads.co.uk/ |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 06:22:13
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I've gotta say I never really saw the harm in dressing up as a nazi. People dress as villains (real and fictional) for Halloween all the time, why is this particular villain off limits? Too soon? Too many people?
I mean, I know I wouldn't dress up as a KKK member, or probably a nazi for that matter, ever, but just trying to provoke thought.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 06:28:02
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Didn´t Roosevelt say that nothing happens in politics by accident? A member of royalty doesn´t go to a society bash dressed as a Nazi without a lot of other people knowing about it beforehand. Wakeywakey, people.
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 09:36:52
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 09:44:00
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Sorry about the half post, wrong button. Anyway, Harry isn't a Nazi, just an idiot.
I would never wear a Nazi uniform or a KKK uniform for that matter. I don't think its the same as wearing a uniform of any other "villian".
Prince Harry is in a privileged position and should have known better. If another 20 year old dressed up as a Nazi there was by eyebrows raised and no media coverage but the average 20 year old isn't 3rd in line to the throne.
It might be unfair that he has a higher threshold of behaviour to meet but there are alot of perks to being a prince. On balance i'm sure he wouldn't change places for someone who has to work for a living, even if he could wear a Nazi uniform without comment. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 10:04:14
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When it´s someone third in line for a throne of a family with a large Nazi past, I don´t know about you but my hackles go up. Harry should know better? Harry does know better. Here´s the article that I posted the link to above:
The Nazi Roots of the House of Windsor
by Scott Thompson
Printed in The American Almanac, August 25, 1997.
One of the biggest public relations hoaxes ever perpetrated by the British Crown, is that King Edward VIII, who abdicated the throne in 1938, due to his support for the Nazis, was a ``black sheep,'' an aberration in an otherwise unblemished Windsor line. Nothing could be further from the truth. The British monarchy, and the City of London's leading Crown bankers, enthusiastically backed Hitler and the Nazis, bankrolled the Führer's election, and did everything possible to build the Nazi war machine, for Britain's planned geopolitical war between Germany and Russia.
Support for Nazi-style genocide has always been at the heart of House of Windsor policy, and long after the abdication of Edward VIII, the Merry Windsors maintained their direct Nazi links.
So, when Prince Philip, co-founder with Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands of the World Wildlife Fund (WWF), tells an interviewer that he hopes to be ``reincarnated as a deadly virus'' to help solve the ``population problem,'' he is just ``doin' what comes naturally'' for any scion of the Anglo-Dutch oligarchy (see page 8 for more quotes from Prince Philip).
To get beyond the soap opera stuff and truly understand the Windsors today, it is useful to start with Prince Philip. Not only was he trained in the Hitler Youth curriculum, but his German brothers-in-law, with whom he lived, all became high-ranking figures in the Nazi Party.
Before his family was forced into exile, Prince Philip had been in line of succession to the Greek throne, established after a British-run coup against the son of King Ludwig of Bavaria, who became King Otto I of the Hellenes. Having dispatched King Otto in 1862, London ran a talent search for a successor, which resulted in the selection of Prince William, the son of the designated heir and nephew to the Danish king, Crown Prince Christian. In 1862, Prince William of the Danes was installed as King George I of Greece, and married a granddaughter of Czar Nicholas I in 1866. Prince Philip is a grandson of Queen Victoria, and he is related to most of the current and former crowned heads of Europe, including seven czars.
The marriages of Prince Philip's sisters definitely strengthened the German aristocratic ties. During 1931-1932, Philip's four older sisters married as follows: Margarita to a Czech-Austrian prince named Gottfried von Hohenlohe-Langenburg, a great-grandson of England's Queen Victoria; Theodora to Berthold, the margrave of Baden; Cecilia to Georg Donatus, grand duke of Hesse-by-Rhine, also a great-grandson of Queen Victoria; and, Sophie to Prince Christoph of Hesse.
Three of Philip's brothers-in-law were part of a group of German aristocrats who were Anglophile and pro-Nazi at the same time, and who remain a subversive force in Germany to this day.
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Enter Prince Bernhard
His Royal Highness Prince Bernhard, royal consort to Queen Juliana of the Netherlands and father of the current Queen Beatrix, co-founded and became the first head of the World Wildlife Fund (now the World Wide Fund for Nature) in October 1961. When the Lockheed scandal forced Prince Bernhard to resign from his most important public functions in 1971, he was replaced by Prince Philip. Prince Bernhard, like Prince Philip, whom he recruited to the eco-fascist cause, had strong roots in the Nazi movement.
In fact, the whole House of Orange did: Queen Wilhelmina, mother of the future Queen Juliana, married a right-wing playboy who begged for money for Hitler; Juliana married an SS man (Prince Bernhard); and, Queen Juliana's daughter Beatrix married a former member of Hitler Youth.
Prince Bernhard first became interested in the Nazis in 1934, during his last year of study at the University of Berlin. He was recruited by a member of the Nazi intelligence services, but first worked openly in the motorized SS. Bernhard went to Paris to work for the firm IG Farben, which pioneered Nazi Economics Minister Hjalmar Schacht's slave labor camp system by building concentration camps to convert coal into synthetic gasoline and rubber. Bernhard's role was to conduct espionage on behalf of the SS. According to the April 5, 1976 issue of Newsweek, this role, as part of a special SS intelligence unit in IG Farbenindustrie, had been revealed in testimony at the Nuremberg trials.
When Bernhard left the SS to marry the future Queen Juliana, he signed his letter of resignation to Adolf Hitler, ``Heil Hitler!'' William Hoffman writes in his book Queen Juliana:
``Tensions [over the marriage] were not cooled when ... Adolf Hitler forwarded his own congratulatory message. The newspaper Het Volk editorialized that `it would be better if the future Queen had found a consort in some democratic country rather than in the Third Reich.'|''
This is the man who recruited Prince Philip to eco-facism, but Prince Philip's Nazi roots had been laid much earlier.
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Hitler Youth and Universal Fascism
Through the influence of his sister Theodora, young Philip was sent to the German school near Lake Constantine that had been founded by Berthold's father, Max von Baden, working through his longtime personal secretary, Kurt Hahn. During World War I, Prince Max von Baden had been chancellor, while the Oxford-trained Hahn first served as head of the Berlin Foreign Ministry's intelligence desk, then as special adviser to Prince Max in the Versailles Treaty negotiations. Von Baden and Hahn set up a school in a wing of Schloss Salem, employing a combination of monasticism and the Nazis' ``strength-through-joy'' system. At first a supporter of the Nazis, Hahn, who was part Jewish, soon got into trouble with the SS, and came to support the more centrist elements of the Nazi Party. What Hahn really had become is what Henry Kissinger's friend, Michael Ledeen has termed a ``universal fascist,'' in the sense of Vladimir Jabotinsky, Count Coudenhove-Kalergi, the Strasser brothers, and other fascists whom the hard-core Nazis would have no dealings with.
Although Hahn's powerful connections permitted him to escape the concentration camps, he was forced to leave the school he founded in Germany before Philip's arrival there, and established a new school in Scotland, called Gordonstoun. It would play a major role in rearing all the male children of Queen Elizabeth II and Philip. When Philip arrived at Hahn's school in Schloss Salem, it was in control of the Hitler Youth and the Nazi Party, and the curriculum had become Nazi ``race science.'' Hahn became an adviser to the Foreign Office in London, urging policies of appeasement based upon appeals to the ``centrist'' Nazis.
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Philip's Relatives Work for the SS
The husband of Philip's sister Sophie, Prince Christoph, was embraced by the Nazis, who saw him as a channel to the appeasement faction in Britain epitomized by King Edward VIII. Joining the Nazi Party in 1933, by 1935 Prince Christoph was chief of the Forschungsamt (directorate of scientific research), a special intelligence operation run by Hermann Göring, and he was also Standartenführer (colonel) of the SS on Heinrich Himmler's personal staff. The Forschungsamt used electronic intelligence-gathering methods to police the Nazi Party, while working with the Gestapo against the Catholic Church, the Jews, and labor organizations. When rumors of homosexuality spread against Capt. Ernst Roehm of the Stormtroopers, Himmler turned to the Forschungsamt's eavesdroppers, and ordered the ``Night of the Long Knives'' as a result. The eldest of Prince Christoph and Sophie's children was named Karl Adolf, after Hitler. Later, Prince Philip would promote his education.
Prince Christoph's brother, Philip of Hesse, married a daughter of the King of Italy, and became the official liaison between the Nazi and Fascist regimes.
Four years after Prince Philip left Schloss Salem to attend Gordonstoun Academy in Scotland, on Nov. 16, 1937, Philip learned that his sister Cecilia and her husband Georg Donatus, hereditary grand duke of Hesse-by-Rhine, had crashed in one of Göring's Junker aircraft on a trip to London for Georg's brother's wedding. According to the British magazine Private Eye, the funeral became a gathering point for leading Nazis and their appeasers. Prince Philip himself developed secretive ties with King Edward VIII, continuing after Edward was deposed in 1938.
In fact, one of the central figures in the 1930s Nazi-British back-channel was Philip's uncle and sponsor, Lord Louis Mountbatten (originally, Battenberg, a branch of the House of Hesse). Until he was forced to abdicate, King Edward VIII enjoyed the full backing of ``Dickie'' Mountbatten. Through much of World War II, secret channels of communication were maintained between the British royal family and their pro-Hitler cousins in Germany, by Lord Mountbatten, through his sister Louise, who was crown princess of pro-Nazi Sweden. Louise was Prince Philip's aunt.
Although Buckingham Palace's rumor mill has tried to depict this wartime collaboration with the enemy as mere family correspondence, the channel apparently included messages from Prince Philip's secret ally, the Duke of Windsor (the former Edward VIII). On Nov. 20, 1995, the Washington Times reported, based on recently discovered Portuguese Secret Service files first published in the London Observer, that the Duke of Windsor had been in close collaboration with the Nazis in Spain and Portugal to foment a revolution in wartime Britain, that would topple the Churchill government, depose his brother King George VI, and allow him to regain the throne, with Queen Wallis [Simpson, the American divorcée, for whom he abdicated the throne] at his side. Portuguese surveillance revealed that Walter Schellenberg, head of Gestapo counterintelligence, was one point of contact in this plot. After Schellenberg met with the Spanish ambassador to Portugal, Nicolás Franco, brother of fascist Gen. Francisco Franco, Ambassador Franco told a Portuguese diplomat: ``The Duke of Windsor, free from the responsibilities of the war, in disagreement with English politicians, could be the man to put at the head of the Empire.''
Whatever correspondence was hidden in Sophie and Prince Christoph's Kronberg Castle, King George VI, in June 1945, felt compelled to dispatch the former MI-5 officer turned ``Surveyor of the King's Pictures,'' Anthony Blunt, to gather up the correspondence. Queen Elizabeth II reportedly insisted that there be no interrogation of Blunt about his secret trip to the castle. Otherwise, it is notable that starting with an exchange between King George VI and President Eisenhower, the House of Windsor has been desperate to keep classified those documents from Kronberg Castle that fell into American Army hands, long beyond the normal length of time. Clearly, Prince Philip's patron Lord Dickie Mountbatten, Mountbatten's sister Crown Princess Louise, and Philip's brother-in-law Prince Christoph of Hesse were not just exchanging Christmas greetings.
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 10:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
I've gotta say I never really saw the harm in dressing up as a nazi. People dress as villains (real and fictional) for Halloween all the time, why is this particular villain off limits? Too soon? Too many people?
I mean, I know I wouldn't dress up as a KKK member, or probably a nazi for that matter, ever, but just trying to provoke thought.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)"
It is thought provoking, like you never really think about it, you just know its wrong. I'd like to hear more debate on this subject.
Along those lines I didn't know what to think about that movie Three Kings that was set in Iraq during desert storm.
Here's one I have a hard time swallowing too and its more disappointing because its on A&E. Its that reality show Growing Up Gotti. I mean really look at where they live and their lifestyle. Where did all that come from and should we really be celebrating it or embracing it with a tv show?
__________
Godfather of nothing, ancesters of none.
Black glasses and feedback took my sense of fun.
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 11:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
I've gotta say I never really saw the harm in dressing up as a nazi. People dress as villains (real and fictional) for Halloween all the time, why is this particular villain off limits? Too soon? Too many people?
Call me PC but I think the harm lies in the fact that some people, thankfully not many, believe the Holocaust was a hoax. I had the misfortune of dealing professionally with the head of such an organization. The man was a lunatic and a bully who put me on the spot for saying that, yes, the Nazis killed several million people. He was screaming at me to "prove it!" It was surreal and somewhat scary -- he was literally in my face shouting while, corporate me, I stayed calm. My unpleasant experience aside, I am amazed that some people cannot accept that the Holocaust or something that evil would be perpretrated by humans.
Thoughts?
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 12:06:12
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I obviously can't imagine anyone could deny something so obvious, and I've even gotten into arguments with Dallas before. That's, as you put it, lunacy.
Would you say your objection comes from the concern that this sort of costume creates deniability?
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 12:14:43
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Good question, Cultie. I am still trying to understand what I base my
objection on. One matter, I suppose, is that triviality may lead to
deniability?
Or maybe it's as simple and as subjective as, Prince Harry should have
known it would c ause him nothing but trouble.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 12:30:33
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I think you nailed it before Dean;
- its not a fictional character
- for sure not enough time has gone by
- there is nothing humorous about what the nazis did or what they represent
Time is a big factor now though, like I object to all these serial killer type movies that come out and glorify the killings. If someone dressed up as Dahmer that would be gross, but it seems not so bad to dress up as Jack the Ripper or to make a movie about him.
__________
Godfather of nothing, ancesters of none.
Black glasses and feedback took my sense of fun.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 12:45:53
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Yeah, even though he was one of the worst serial killers ever. That's what I was thinking when I wrote my initial post. We dress as some weird things, no doubts, why some are off limits. There's nothing humorous about Jack the Ripper, or many of the villains and evil people we dress as. So I can discount that. Fictional characters are obviously excusable although by the same token, if the whole of the holocaust were a movie instead of reality (say for example there was a movie about some nut who did things like Hitler), would it be acceptable because it didn't happen, or are you not still promoting hatred, etc?
It just seems sort of arbitrary where we draw the lines so that's why while I personally wouldn't dress as hitler or the kkk or whatever, I can't really hold it against someone who did. Unless they are actually a documented neo-nazi or something, in which case, I have no respect for them even if they dress as little bo-peep.
I'm not sure I made a point. But there's some ramblings...
Someone dressed up as a guy with a bomb strapped to his chest (I guess that by definition that would be a suicide bomber) using paper towel rolls and an old alarm clock this year. Some people were completely disgusted and I never even considered that some might see it as unacceptable when I saw the costume (I didn't really even notice the costume until it was pointed out to me, in fact).
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 14:57:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Yeah, even though he was one of the worst serial killers ever.
Depends how you look at it, he only (I say only...) killed six people, but in a particularly gruesome manner. We had a guy here in the last couple of years (he hanged himself in jail) called Dr Harold Shipman, he could be responsible for the murder of anything up to and above 200 people - he was a doctor and just finished people off before their time. So who was worse? Who are we to say?
Of course, I just can't understand anyone desiring to dress up as a Nazi though. It just doesn't make any sort of sense to me. Apparently, those uniforms are some of the most popular though, go figure.
And if a double-decker bus
Crashes into us
To die by your side
Well, the pleasure and the privilege is mine. |
Edited by - Cheeseman1000 on 01/17/2005 15:01:12 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 15:12:58
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I had that stastistic shown to me after my post, I thought he'd killed tonnes of people.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 16:05:14
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Bad costumes are a topic unto themselves. The Halloween
after OJ killed his wife and Ron Goldman, one of my husband's
employees showed up at a company costume party dressed
like Nicole, you know, with a slashed neck and her date
dressed like OJ (cap, gloves, Bruno Magli shoes, knife).
I just didn't think it was funny. She was a real person, not to
me but certainly to her kids and parents.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 16:45:53
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Yeah, but when you think about it like that, nothing's ever funny. :)
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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Avid-Fan
- FB Fan -
100 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 17:46:15
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Prince Harry's outfit was a cry for help. That's all I've got to say... Goodbye.
(( I talk plain talk )) |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 18:00:12
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Personally, I think he should be shown the concentation camps and gassed. (just kidding) 
I guess, what to you expect of the result of imbreeding?
But seriously, I think he lives way to sheltered of a life-- I thought his apology was half assed. And I think sadly, his behavior is a reflection of the out of touch attitudes of most of the ruling elite regardless of country of origin.
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Perk
- FB Fan -
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 19:21:54
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He should have gone trick or treating door to door. i'm sure that in some areas of town, he would not get any candy. maybe lead pop rock candy.
Don't sweat the petty things
and don't pet the sweaty things |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 02:48:49
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quote:
Homers_pet_monkey Posted - 01/17/2005 : 10:45:04
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So I assume you feel that those roots are very much alive Newo?
That they are entirely absent from the official history means they are, Mike. Also, the popular view that they´re just a bunch of fabulously wealthy but essentially impotent cranks we just indulge in letting them keep their outmoded customs I don´t swallow for a second. On the SE coast of Spain I lived with a guy from Leicester and he said a few times Yeah but the Queen, she ain´t got no power, and there was a certain reflexive hollowness to his words made me feel he was just quoting something instilled in him instead of giving a considered response. Here´s an article by the same fellow, of particular interest to those from the US:
The Crown Jewels: The Queen Is The Ultimate Insider Trader
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is the wealthiest crone in the world, who gives new meaning to the phrase, "stinking rich." Her total wealth is divided into two parts. One is a Venetian-style fondo (trust), that is, it is inalienable and must be passed on to her heir, free from inheritance tax. The second part of her wealth consists of her private collection of castles, jewelry, and art, and a portfolio of blue chip stocks and bonds and real estate investments around the world. Her investment portfolio is estimated to be worth £3 billion. One of the secrets to her disposable wealth is that she amassed it tax free until 1992- the Annus Horribilis, which started with the separation of Charles and Diana and ended with the fire at Windsor Castle - when she entered a memorandum of understanding to pay taxes on income, capital gains, and inheritance on this portfolio; although, the Queen can break this agreement at any time she desires.
A second, most important secret is that the Queen is the world's ultimate "insider trader." She not only gets tips from British financiers, but also has access to all the state secrets, through the "boxes." Thus, if the Queen learns from among all public and private British Empire intelligence and economic warfare entities reporting to her, for example, that Nigeria is about to be destabilized, she can immediately call her broker. Under the secrecy laws of the British Empire, it would be unthinkable for anyone to consider pressing charges of insider trading and conflict of interest against the sovereign: In fact, only a handful of trusted advisers would ever know.
The Queen thus follows the Venetian system of being Doge of a financier-oligarchy. One key point in this shift of the sovereign as the largest landholder, to the sovereign as a financier, took place under George III, who turned over most of the Crown Lands to Parliament in exchange for a Civil List of payments to fund the monarchy and its retainers, which has expanded ever since (when all the perquisites are taken into account). The Civil List, especially since the reign of Queen Victoria's heir, Edward VII, represented a vast pool for financial speculation.
Incestuous Relationship
Since at least King Edward VII (1901-10), there has been an incestuous relationship between the monarch of the British Empire and the financier oligarchy, especially with Barings Bank, dating from before the Opium Wars, and with Morgan Grenfell. Edward had a geopolitical vision in the Venetian tradition, and it was one of brutal simplicity: the encirclement of Germany with a hostile coalition, and the destruction of the nation-states of Europe. With this ambition driving him, Edward VII set up the Anglo-Franco-Russian alliance that became known as the Triple Entente. His policies led directly to explosion of world war in 1914.
One of Edward VII's leading financial advisers was Hungarian Jewish banker Baron Hirsch, who purchased an introduction to Edward in 1890 from Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria. When Baron Hirsch died in 1896, his position as leading adviser passed on to his executor, another Jewish banker, Ernest Cassel, whose daughter and heiress, Edwina, would ultimately marry Lord Louis Mountbatten, a chief influence on Prince Philip and Prince Charles.
The Rothschilds and the Sassoons, also Jewish bankers, were friendly with Edward VII, as were the American financiers J.P. Morgan and E.H. Harriman.
Within a span of less than ten years, Edward VII amassed a fortune of £100 million (at 1991 prices), which would place him among the world's wealthiest. This was the start of the modern-era financial wealth of the British monarchy. Edward VII's heir, George V (1910-36), tended to be more plodding in his investments. Nonetheless, he continued the "philo-bankerism" of his father. George V's private financial adviser from 1929 onward was a Canadian, Sir Edward Peacock, of Barings merchant bank and a director of the Bank of England. Sir Edward had been prepared for this position by his predecessor, Lord Revelstoke, who had also been with Barings. In 1934, for services rendered the Crown, Peacock was knighted a Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, which is part of the "Sovereign's Gift" that does not require advice of the prime minister. George V liked the incestuous relationship with "the City"; for example, he selected Lord Cromer as his Lord Chamberlain (which is the highest household rank), who was briefly managing director of Barings and a director of several other companies.
When George V died in 1936 - the year of the three kings - he left £100 million (at 1991 prices). George VI (1936-52), who ascended the throne when his brother Edward VIII abdicated in 1936, inherited about half their father's fortune. He also inherited the advice of Barings' head, Sir Edward Peacock, who would continue to advise the monarch until his death, well into Queen Elizabeth II's reign. Queen Elizabeth II is believed to have inherited the bulk of George VI's fortune, some £50 million, to invest and reinvest tax free from 1952, when she became Queen. Conservative estimates are that her portfolio grew to £3 billion (present value).
Apart from Barings, which, going back 300 years, had worked with the British East India Company and which, after its bankruptcy last year, was taken over by the "hot-money-laundering" Dutch firm ING, the Queen had relied upon Morgan Grenfell, which was taken over by Deutsche Bank, transforming that German bank into part of the British Empire's financial network in the process. Morgan Grenfell senior executive William Hill-Wood, financial adviser to King George VI, continued his services to George's daughter Elizabeth, who gave him a knighthood of the Royal Victorian Order. Undoubtedly, the Queen was not pleased by ING's takeover of Barings and by Deutsche Bank's takeover of Morgan Grenfell.
The Queen's "Fondo" and Her Private Property
The Queen has some 310 residences. Almost all are part of the inalienable fondo to be passed on to her heir, and most are "grace and favor" houses for family members and retainers, ranging from the humble to the magnificent. Included in the fondo are five castles: Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle, Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh, Kensington Palace (occupied by Princess Diana), and St. James Palace (occupied by Prince Charles). Two other castles, Balmoral and Sandringham, are private property, originally purchases of Queen Victoria. All these properties are maintained by the Department of the Environment (presumably because they are the habitat of an endangered species).
Queen Elizabeth recently created the Royal Collection Trust - which she heads, as will her heir - to which were transferred all the 7,000 paintings, 20,000 Old Master drawings, and various antiques acquired before Queen Victoria's reign, all part of the fondo. At the instigation of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, a chapel owned by the royal family was converted to a museum for the display of this art, a fraction at a time. As part of her private fortune, the Queen has a large collection of art works ranging from Renaissance masterpieces, such as Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks, to the craziest of modern art.
The Duchy of Lancaster is also part of her fondo: The duchy is comprised of properties stolen in the 13th Century from the rebel Simon de Monfort, who tried to create a powerful Parliament and failed in 1265, only to have his land and life taken by Edmund Crouchback, youngest son of Henry III. In 1987, the Duchy of Lancaster was 36,456 acres, mainly agricultural land; within the duchy, the freehold of 2.25 acres in the Strand area of London (lying between the Savoy Hotel and Somerset House) is so valuable, that the Queen had The Duchy of Lancaster Act of 1988 steered through Parliament allowing her to develop and sell this area.
The Prince of Wales, the Heir Presumptive, Charles, came into the income of the second royal family duchy, the Duchy of Cornwall, which has 44,000 acres, including another posh section of London. Prince Charles agreed to return 50% of Cornwall's earnings to the state, which was reduced to 25% upon his marriage to Lady Diana. As for the Queen, she uses part of the income from the Duchy of Lancaster to supplement the Civil List in giving an income to her close relatives.
The famous Crown Jewels, which are kept in the Tower of London, except for major events such as coronations, are part of the fondo. Apart from those, the Queen has inherited or bought the largest private collections of jewels in the world. At auction, it might bring £350 million (1991 currency). There is no complete listing of the Queen's private collection, but the monarchist Leslie Field estimates that it includes: 14 tiaras, 34 pairs of earrings, 98 brooches, 46 necklaces, 37 bracelets, 5 pendants, 14 watches, and 15 rings.
The history of the collection again shows the incestuous relationship between the Crown and the City of London. When the British East India Company defeated the Maharajah of the Punjab, in 1851, the Company presented to Queen Victoria what was then the world's largest diamond, the Koh-in-noor diamond. Queen Victoria took sadistic pleasure in displaying the Koh-in-noor to the defeated Maharajah on his visit to Buckingham Palace, and he left muttering, "Mrs. Fagin." At the conclusion of the Boer War, the peace offering to the sovereign, included the largest uncut diamond in the world, the Cullinen Diamond, weighing 3,106 carats. Two cut stones from the Cullinen Diamond went to adorn the Crown Jewels, and the Queen today possesses a brooch that consists of the third and fourth largest stones (94.4 and 63.6 carats) cut from the Cullinen Diamond. The British sovereigns were regularly showered with jewels by propitiatory princes of India, and, as that largesse ran out, they received special treasures from Anglo-American diamond finds in South Africa. For example, shortly after World War II, Mary Oppenheimer presented Princess Elizabeth with a 6-carat, blue-white diamond for helping advertise Anglo-American's diamond monopoly at a time when diamond prices were depressed. Later, Princess Anne, the Queen's oldest daughter, on her 21st birthday, received a necklace of colored diamonds. Today, an adulatory group of oil-rich sheikhs and emirs adds to the Queen's private collection.
Her Majesty's Portfolio
It is forbidden for Parliament to discuss the fact that the Queen has kept her private wealth a secret. But, in 1977, it was discovered through a Parliamentary question, that the Bank of England had established a special nominee company, the Bank of England Nominees Ltd. (BOEN), to hide investments of the Queen's portfolio, as well as those of others whom she recommends, such as King Fahd of Saudi Arabia, the Sultan of Brunei, King Bhumibhol Adulayadej of Thailand, and the Kuwaiti Investment Office. But, BOEN is only one of the means apparently employed by the Queen's royal insider trader to hide her wealth.
Philip Beresford, author of The Book of the British Rich, written in conjunction with the Sunday Times of London, has said that the Queen tends to invest in "blue chip" stocks, including Rio Tinto Zinc, General Electric Company of Great Britain, Imperial Chemical Industries, Royal Dutch Shell, and British Petroleum. Among the firms through which she has invested are Barings, S.G. Warburg's subsidiary Rowe & Pitman, and Cazanove. The Queen's holding in Rio Tinto Zinc (RTZ) was first discovered through a leak from a source at the Bank of England to Andrew Morton, who wrote the authorized biography of Diana, Princess of Wales.
According to Charles Higham, co-author of Elizabeth and Philip, the Queen is a major stockholder in RTZ, which, with her old friends at Anglo-American, controls 12% of the world's precious, strategic, and base metals and minerals (see corporate profiles). Forbes magazine also reported that she was a major RTZ shareholder, as was the Bank of England. Higham quotes Sir Mark Turner, then chairman of RTZ: "You're running into problems of what the government is going to say about the Queen's involvement. RTZ is one of the great assets of the country."
RTZ was in on developing North Sea oil from the beginning. Writes Higham: "The Queen undoubtedly approved the heavy investment, which would enrich her in the immediate future." Starting in June 1975, RTZ and Texaco were spearheading shipments from the North Sea Argyll Field, to the refineries of British Petroleum, in which firm Queen Elizabeth is also believed to hold an interest.
In 1976, the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee, in hearings chaired by Frank Church (D-Idaho), and attended by Attorney General Edward H. Levi, found that an international cartel, of which RTZ was a major partner, had been formed in 1971 to fix the world's uranium prices. A federal grand jury found corroborating evidence of RTZ's role. Also discovered to be part of the cartel was Mary Kathleen Uranium of Australia, which has been encouraging indigenous, aborigine agitation to occupy large uranium-bearing lands, taking them out of production.
When, in May 1976, power companies brought charges against the U.S. Westinghouse Electric Corp., claiming that it failed to supply uranium according to contract, Westinghouse responded with the allegation that RTZ and other corporations had formed a cartel that was forcing up world prices, preventing Westinghouse from meeting its contracts. Lord Denning and the Law Lords quashed Westinghouse's ability to take depositions in the United Kingdom, even under grant of immunity from self-incrimination, in order to protect RTZ's directors and their shareholder, the Queen, from exposure. But, on June 16, 1976, in hearings in the U.S. House Interstate and Foreign Commerce Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, Jerry McAfee, chairman of the Gulf Oil Corp., admitted that the cartel in which RTZ was his partner had, in fact, increased the world price of uranium.
When the Tennesee Valley Authority tried to sue RTZ, Gulf released new documents inculpating RTZ and its Rio Algom subsidiary in Canada, at which point, the U.S. Attorney General demanded immunized testimony. However, the directors of RTZ and the Queen were once again protected by the Law Lords, who claimed that the RTZ directors did not have to appear before an American court, as this was "an unacceptable invasion of British sovereignty." So, despite the fact that a cartel involving HM Queen Elizabeth II was hampering nuclear energy development in the United States, the "free-trader" Queen was protected by her appointees among the Law Lords.
The Queen's Dixie Plantation
According to the statements of Sen. Thomas J. McIntyre (D-N.H.) and Rep. Silvio O. Conte (R-Mass.) in 1971, Queen Elizabeth held a major share in Courtaulds Textile. Courtaulds came to their attention when the Queen had used it to hide her ownership in the largest plantation in Mississippi. The Queen apparently has used Courtaulds as a nominee for the purchase of other stocks, but what bothered the congressmen was that the wealthiest woman in the world was getting agricultural subsidies to run a plantation in the United States. In 1968, these two congressmen had described in the Congressional Record how the Queen obtained one of the world's largest plantations from Courtaulds, complete with sharecroppers, in Scott, Mississippi, situated on the banks of the Mississippi River near the border with Arkansas. It was known as the Delta and Pine Land Company, or "the Queen's Farm," and it consisted of 38,000 acres with rich soil, a factory, and a mill. At the time, it was worth $44.5 million. It employed hundreds of African-American laborers at minimal wages. Since 1968, it had been subsidized by the U.S. Department of Agriculture to the tune of $1.5 million. On April 16, 1970, Senator McIntyre, while introducing a bill relating to limitations on farm payments, said: "We paid the Queen $120,000 for not planting cotton on the farmland she owns in Mississippi." Following the publicity, the Queen seems to have sold the plantation back to Courtaulds, but some believe Courtaulds merely exerted nominee ownership.
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 06:08:42
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What did he say for his apology?
And when he went to go get this outfit for this party or when he was wearing it to go to the party, didn't anyone say hmmmmm errr ya know Harry maybe this isn't a good idea...
__________
Godfather of nothing, ancesters of none.
Black glasses and feedback took my sense of fun.
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 09:18:22
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He's a bit of an embarassment is poor Harry, he's a lot like his grand-daddy. I'm not sure if either of them are intentionaly offensive more like completely clueless.
Yes he should be taken round the camps because (as much as I don't like it) he is a public figure and one of the representatives of our country. He needs a sense of responsibility for his actions, as we all are. We may not get dragged round a camp for dressing up as a nazi but if I went to a works do dressed as a nazi I'm sure my boss would have something to say about it.
And it's not the first time he's made a fuck up either is it really?
Kathryn, I think the reason people claim there was no holocaust was because of an alleged numbers discrepancy, millions of Jews killed but there were not that many millions around at the time? I think it's another case of twisting the facts by the wilfully ignorant, I don't see how they can deny it but deny it they do.
you
me
we used to be on fire |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 09:26:39
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Also, just popped into my head, a strange thing in Britland that disturbs me no end is the increase of the BNP (British national (nazi) party) they seem to be getting more and more votes, there was a television program on a while back when an undercover reporter joined up and filmed discussion with prominent members who talked about how they'd like to bomb mosques, beat up blacks and asians and other such atrocities. With the tabloids making the asylum issue bigger than it need be and whipping up people into a frenzy, racism is a big deal here in some places.
When I lived in Birmingham I went to catch my bus into work and on the bus stop someone had stapled a BNP leaflet holder packed full of racist leaflets. I tore this down and stomped round all the other bus stops to make sure there were no more, I was late to work but my boss understood.
Nazism is equated with racism and with things as delicate as they are, Harry dressed as a nazi just makes it worse.
Do you think it would have been less offensive if he had left off the swastika?
you
me
we used to be on fire |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 11:14:19
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If he'd left off the swastika then it wouldn't be a Nazi costume, right?
I dunno. His apology was lame, at best.
My Friend Who Is More Clever Than Everyone claims that she made up the nickname "Harry Pothead" for Prince Harry. Sounds to me like a Fleet Street moniker, or at least something that was not created by this friend of mine.
Anybody hear that little nickname or is my friend as clever as she thinks she is?
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 13:38:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
And when he went to go get this outfit for this party or when he was wearing it to go to the party, didn't anyone say hmmmmm errr ya know Harry maybe this isn't a good idea...
__________
Godfather of nothing, ancesters of none.
Black glasses and feedback took my sense of fun.
To quote Owen, "Didn´t Roosevelt say that nothing happens in politics by accident? A member of royalty doesn´t go to a society bash dressed as a Nazi without a lot of other people knowing about it beforehand. Wakeywakey, people."
The only thing I ask in light of this is would they really want the ensuing embarrassment? And perhaps the 'truth', as Owen is reporting, to be spread around further?
What would they have to gain that would be worth this? |
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Prince Harry
