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moonruler
- FB Fan -
USA
209 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2007 : 18:17:31
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i do realize that the cd comes with lyrics and had thought i had read them, but i have always heard that lyric as "you don't have much taste for decay"
whoops! it rhymes anyway.
for overated i say "here comes your man" for pixies and......."i heard ramona sing" for frank. |
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JaredGL
- FB Fan -
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 18:53:41
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| monkey gone to heaven w/out a doubt. |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2010 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 20:01:33
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quote:
Originally posted by JaredGL
monkey gone to heaven w/out a doubt.
agreed. |
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pixiestu
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2564 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 03:05:01
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Pixies: Monkey Gone To Heaven
FB: Speedy Marie
"The arc of triumph" |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 04:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by pixiestu
FB: Speedy Marie
Scandalous! The real answer is "Los Angeles."
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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pixiestu
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2564 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 08:46:02
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Los Angeles!? Are you crazy!? We'll just have to agree to disagree. Or you agree with me. Either is fine.
"The arc of triumph" |
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Valhalla
- FB Fan -
Germany
80 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 22:36:05
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Tight Black Rubber and Captain Pasty.
FB has written much better songs (e.g. Raider Man) which are totally
underrated. |
Edited by - Valhalla on 06/21/2007 22:36:24 |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 02:07:32
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Raider Man is in that old tradition of songs sung in the first person that just sound fake. Lines are attributed to the person that the person would never sing. I'm a this or I'm a that... They are just kitsch songs. RM is very sing-along though. Captain Pasty is like this too. I love its energy though.
So by definition Raider Man cannot be a better song than say Tight Black Rubber. A kitsch song cannot be better than another type of song. Confessionals can only be rated if they are auto-biographical authentic. Thank you langdonboom for the correction
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
Edited by - trobrianders on 06/23/2007 03:20:19 |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 03:33:30
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then there are those who look at more than just lyrics..
"Idiot" is just her sig. |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 03:43:50
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What are you saying? That a kitsch song can be better than another type of song? Or Raider Man isn't kitsch? Funny that you think the music means nothing to me.
Raider Man has value, it's just kitsch value.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
Edited by - trobrianders on 06/22/2007 03:54:36 |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 04:01:31
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sorry, i didn't mean to suggest music means nothing to you. i guess i meant lyrics don't mean much to some people, nor does your comparison of songs using lyrics only.
"Idiot" is just her sig. |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/22/2007 04:05:29 |
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Blank_Frackis
- FB Fan -
55 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 05:45:50
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quote:
Originally posted by coastline
quote:
Originally posted by pixiestu
FB: Speedy Marie
Scandalous! The real answer is "Los Angeles."
I agree, I don't understand why people love Los Angeles so much, I mean it's a good song but to me it doesn't hold up to much of what he did later. It's not like the songs from TOTY (Speedy Marie among them) which still sound fresh after all these years.
If time's a drug then Big Ben's a giant needle injecting it into the sky. |
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mr.biscuitdoughhead
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1729 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 10:50:35
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I never understood what was so great about Billy Radcliffe.
It's a good song and everything, but not that good.
"Give me two days, and woman I will make you a girl." |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 14:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
sorry, i didn't mean to suggest music means nothing to you. i guess i meant lyrics don't mean much to some people, nor does your comparison of songs using lyrics only.
"Idiot" is just her sig.
It's a fair point. It's only academic to suggest that one type of song could be better than another. But seeing as we all seem to be comparing...I thought it was fair to challenge Valhalla's post, that's all.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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langdonboom
= Cult of Ray =
USA
260 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 16:01:56
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quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
Raider Man is in that old tradition of songs sung in the first person that just sound fake. Lines are attributed to the person that the person would never sing. I'm a this or I'm a that... They are just kitsch songs. RM is very sing-along though. Captain Pasty is like this too. I love its energy though.
So by definition Raider Man cannot be a better song than say Tight Black Rubber. A kitsch song cannot be better than another type of song. Confessionals can only be rated if they are auto-biographical.
I don't understand -- a song in which the songwriter portrays a character is automatically kitsch? I think we have a different understanding of "kitsch". Please explain, if you don't mind. |
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moonruler
- FB Fan -
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 16:25:42
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Kitsch: is a term of German origin that has been used to categorize art that is considered an inferior copy of an existing style. The term is also used more loosely in referring to any art that is pretentious to the point of being in bad taste, and also commercially produced items that are considered trite or crass.
this just in from wikipedia.
most overated solo Black Francis: Threshold Apprehension. i have not heard the whole album, though. |
Edited by - moonruler on 06/22/2007 16:28:57 |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 16:41:25
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Please check out Kundera's The Unbearable Lightness of Being, chapter 6 The Grand March, for an eye-opening definition of kitsch.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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langdonboom
= Cult of Ray =
USA
260 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 17:03:15
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Yes, I am familiar with the definition of kitsch, I just don't see how a song written that assumes a character's point of view qualifies!
That would make every book that is not explicit autobiography kitsch, wouldn't it?
I mean, you could make an argument that all of popular art, all rock n roll music is kitsch - feeding you back emotions you already had, telling you what you want to hear, etc. So what makes Raiderman more kitsch than Speedy Marie? Neither are Bach or Mozart, after all. |
Edited by - langdonboom on 06/22/2007 17:06:34 |
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moonruler
- FB Fan -
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 17:25:37
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| sorry, langdonboom. it may not have seemed obvious, but i was agreeing with you. there was a lot more on wikipedia, including the Milan Kundera quote, but none of it mentioned assuming a character's point of view. |
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langdonboom
= Cult of Ray =
USA
260 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 19:49:00
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thanks, moonruler, I was pretty much responding to trobrianders - I'm intrigued by his assertion.
Maybe he means that Frank's attempts to discuss the life of someone so far afield from his own experience has simply failed to seem authentic to him, and therefore feels like a copy of a copy of an original sentiment. That I could see, but that would be based more on a failure on FB's imagination/insight than the simple formal device of first-person characterization.
Anyway, the topic of kitsch would make for its own cool thread. I hesitate to mention, though, that any artist with an internet webboard dedicated to him is *probably* not engaged in the high arts - but that's cool with me! I like my arts high and low, and in between (apologies to Townes... Hey, is he kitsch?). |
Edited by - langdonboom on 06/22/2007 19:49:23 |
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yingguoguizi
- FB Fan -
China
62 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 20:51:17
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| I think bullet is a bit overated. I agree that live it's awesome but I think generally there are a lot better songs on Dog in the Sand. |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 02:47:48
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Kundera's kitsch has no real bad connotation (we're only human after all) but the more familiar definition of kitsch as bad art does (a critic uses the term when he wants to feel superior we think to ourselves). I wasn't slating FB to feel superior, I'm just not a fan of the brand of songwriting employed in Raider Man.
To me it's kitsch because it aims to quickly sentimentalise its subject rather than honestly portray it. Tom Waits' songwriting currency deals in the sentimental but there's never been one moment of kitsch in any of his portrayals. It's a matter of trust in the end.
Has this singer seen some aspect of life that he's able to illuminate OR
Is this fucker trying to sell me something
When FB sings St Francis Dam Disaster I trust him completely. Dam Disaster is FB's kind of song. Raider Man is somebody else's type of song. But Raider Man still manages to work for me because I don't really mind him experimenting with that song form. I sing it in the shower for crying out loud 
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
Edited by - trobrianders on 06/23/2007 06:35:54 |
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langdonboom
= Cult of Ray =
USA
260 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 06:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
Kundera's kitsch has no real bad connotation (we're only human after all) but the more familiar definition of kitsch as bad art does (a critic uses it when he wants to feel superior we think to ourselves). I wasn't slating FB to feel superior, I'm just not a fan of the brand of songwriting employed in Raider Man.
To me it's kitsch because it aims to quickly sentimentalise its subject rather than honestly portray it. Tom Waits' songwriting currency deals in the sentimental but there's never been one moment of kitsch in any of his portrayals. It's a matter of trust in the end.
Has this singer seen some aspect of life that he's able to illuminate OR
Is this fucker trying to sell me something
When FB sings St Francis Dam Disaster I trust him completely. Dam Disaster is FB's kind of song. Raider Man is somebody else's type of song. But Raider Man still manages to work for me because I don't really mind him experimenting with that song form. I sing it in the shower for crying out loud
Cool, thanks for the explanation. And I've been meaning to read that book since like forever, maybe this little conversation will push me over the edge into actually doing it!
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moonruler
- FB Fan -
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 06:37:12
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that is a great explanation, tobrianders, i and will admit that i have sometimes wondered the "point" of the song. you know," what was his intent, what was he saying and why".
that being said, for some reason i love this song, even though his "selling" of it was not perfect. it is frank in the song, regardless of who he says it is, unlike, say, hermaprodites.
anyway, to keep in the vain of the thread. most overrated fb&c tune is: jane the queen of love. only the album version, i love it live. |
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moonruler
- FB Fan -
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 06:40:12
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you beat me to the punch, langdonboom!
and the book is great, the movie is fairly boring.
most overrated "nashville" song: dark end of the street. i realize it is a cover, but whateva! |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 07:16:18
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To dismiss "Raider Man" for its point of view and for the story is tells is to dismiss all of folk music. To tell these stories is to keep whole classes of people alive, years after they're gone. I don't know about kitsch or anything, but I do know that the song works for me in the same way that every Woody Guthrie song ever did.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 09:18:36
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I really dont like Dig For Fire. The drum sound and the chorus are gross. Maybe it's supose to be a funny song but it breaks my listenings of Bossanova, just like Silver with Doolittle.
Captain Pasty was very popular in the early Bluefinger thread, I think the song structure is fine but the vocals are not a good take at all, he seems exausted and that's no way to begin an (excellent) album. At least they could double the chorus vocals or put something (a sound or whatever) in that flat rock mix, it would be listenable. |
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mikaelp75
- FB Fan -
131 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 12:20:09
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Dig For Fire for me as well.
Also, I get tired of the tune to I Burn Today before the song ends, which is a shame on such good lyrics. Well enough played and sung though. |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 20:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
I really dont like Dig For Fire. The drum sound and the chorus are gross. Maybe it's supose to be a funny song but it breaks my listenings of Bossanova, just like Silver with Doolittle.
i never understood the "silver" hate. i love that song! i think of vampires in the desert when i hear it, like it's the song the vampires from "i bleed" sing at night.
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they were the heroes of old, men of renown. |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 04:13:08
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silver's always gonna be a song that listeners won't like at first. it's completely unlike anything on that album. but it surprises me that many long time pixies fans still cannot stand it. it's probably my least favourite track on the album, but when the album is doolittle, that doesn't say much.
"Idiot" is just her sig. |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/24/2007 04:15:01 |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 05:24:30
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true. i think it's fun. Dave on bass, Kim on guitar. there's a first. and last. i don't think this one's suppose to be compared or considered equal to any other.
i'd like to hear the Breeders version. |
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velvety
= Cult of Ray =
Portugal
536 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 06:54:09
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All my ghosts. Never loved that one. Almost all the songs that people seem to love in FB&C and Pistolero (All my ghosts, Western Star, etc) never did much for me, the hooks are there, it sounds good, but they just seem to miss something I can't put my finger on. I don't know, not a big fan of those two albums, i guess.
And Massif Central, kind of. I really like the the "madams at nine" part, but the song always seems too long, one verse too long. |
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langdonboom
= Cult of Ray =
USA
260 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 06:56:51
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quote:
Originally posted by velvety
All my ghosts. Never loved that one. Almost all the songs that people seem to love in FB&C and Pistolero (All my ghosts, Western Star, etc) never did much for me, the hooks are there, it sounds good, but they just seem to miss something I can't put my finger on. I don't know, not a big fan of those two albums, i guess.
And Massif Central, kind of. I really like the the "madams at nine" part, but the song always seems too long, one verse too long.
Wow! To each his own, of course -- but I don't think Frank Black gets much better than the "OOO-WOAH-OH-OHHH!" of All my Ghosts or the riff from Massif Central, or the entire song of Massif Central!
Though I will agree that Silver has taken DECADES to grow on me, and finally I appreciate it, even more so after hearing the Breeders version and understanding its origins.
PS anyone who wants to hear the breeders version can email me with their email. |
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Ford Prefect
- FB Fan -
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 20:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by pixiestu
Pixies: Monkey Gone To Heaven
FB: Speedy Marie
"The arc of triumph"
I agree. Especially with MGtH. That's always been one my least favorite Pixies songs of all-time.
Do you like worms? |
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langdonboom
= Cult of Ray =
USA
260 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 20:26:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Antoinette
No matter how much attention gets paid to any Pixies song, it's never enough to merit overrating, 'cause they just don't get enough recognition, ultimately. And, w/out saying, so it goes for Frank Black, too.
Yeah, I guess its hard for me to really concieve of ANY frank black song being "overrated" since in general its a rarety in my 'real life' ie out side of this webboard to really find anybody willing to RATE him in the first place! Of course, he rates highly with me, and I guess the question is " amongst those who highly rate frank black songs, which is the most over-rated"
So I guess Speedy Marie kinda wins by default, as its probably the single most beloved and universally praised song in his canon. But its still one of my all-time most-listenable songs ever. So I'm going to have to go with something more like "the water" or "captain pasty" since I didn't really dig those songs right away (not that I always dig FB music on one or two listens.... it does reveal itself) and did hear a lot of hyperbole on these boards around them. I guess all of Bluefinger entirely seems 'over-rated' even though I am loving it, based on some of the comments in the Bluefinger thread.
By the way - here's a link to those breeders pod demos, I hope this is kosher. Or maybe I should post in another thread?
http://download.yousendit.com/376477953CD9873A
01 Rave On.mp3
02 Only in Threes.mp3
03 Glorious.mp3
04 Fortunately Gone.mp3
05 Doe.mp3
06 Driving on Nine.mp3
07 Silver.mp3
08 When I Was a Painter.mp3
09 Stop Whispering.mp3
10 Unititled.mp3
11 Limehouse.mp3
I myself got it off a bittorrent, so its out there already. I have no real idea what the origin of these are, besides was I can intuit - Kim Deal's attempts to add some songs to the Pixies yielded just one 'break through' and the rest she either chose or was forced to use for her own band, The Breeders. |
Edited by - langdonboom on 06/24/2007 20:31:16 |
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