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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2004 : 09:53:50
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quote:
Originally posted by whoreatthedoor
Oh, come on guys! Try to be realistic. Nobody's gonna stop that. No one buys an album to hear it these days. It's faster (and cheaper) to download it. I've downloaded movies and records (and you, probably) before they were released in my country. Think about it, the number of computers is increasing every minute as well as bandwidth. New artists have started to share their songs for free. There is no way to stop it.
True fans are the only ones who will pay for this record, so Frank has nothing to be worried about.
"Mmmmm.... Está bien. Normalmente es aquí, pero esta noche..." - Jonathan Richman
In my experience, this is largely true of younger people. Full-grown adults who work for a living -- like me -- tend to not have time to download every scrap of music they hear (or movie they see) and continue to consume music in the traditional way. I've never even looked at Soulseek.
If you want, you could probably scam your way into a movie theater for free, but you don't because it's too much time/trouble. It's easier to just pay. People who buy books could go to a library and xerox or scan all their shit. But they usually don't. Too much time, too much trouble.
My favorite person in the world is my 15 year old sister. She's into The Pixies, Cramps, Nuggets box set, Devo, and other cool stuff she's picked up from me. I rarely hang out with anyone younger than 25 or so, and from reading things on the internet, I sort of assumed that all of the kiddie set were downloading all of their music. So I asked my sister about it. I asked her if she was doing that. And her response was "No! That's for losers! I don't have time for that!". She prefers record stores. I love her. |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 09:57:42
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| i myself (aged 17) generally download snippets of albums, and occasionally whole albums. if i like what i hear, i generally go out and buy the album, because of the artwork etc. and the fact that it'll be slightly better quality than the mp3s. if i don't like it, i won't buy it. the moral of the story is: make good music and people will buy it. wouldn't you agree this is true ANYWAY? downloading is a much better way of reviewing music than reading some lame failed musicians' take on it. |
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Johnny Yen
= Cult of Ray =
USA
408 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 10:07:27
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"Ellis Hooks - Uncomplicated (allmusic excerpt): Produced by Jon Tiven (Wilson Pickett, Don Covay), who also plays lead guitar, organ, and alto saxophone on the date and co-wrote with Hooks, Uncomplicated also boasts the talent of bassist Sally Tiven (also a co-author) as well as a host of drummers who include Billy Block, Anton Fig, Matt Reale, Omar Hakim, and Todd Snare. Vocalist Essra Mohawk and guitarist Duane Jarvis also lend a hand. The sound put forth by Hooks and Tiven is raw, immediate, and greasy; it's thoroughly organic. Its aesthetic is drenched in Southern funk and grit and gospel fervor; it contains no traces of the slick, sheeny neo-soul tropes that have all but ruined the genre."
Amen. This sounds awesome, Jon. I've been diggin' on the newest Holmes Bros. album lately. This sounds like it could one-up the Bros. |
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 10:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
In my experience, this is largely true of younger people.
And people who love music and can't afford 18€ for one record. I have more or less 400 records. Feel free to multiply it.
"Mmmmm.... Está bien. Normalmente es aquí, pero esta noche..." - Jonathan Richman |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 12:47:28
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I only download full lenght albums if they are not already released
The last 3 fb albums were also leaked and I believe those two did alright in sales
 "I joined the Cult of Serge/'Cause he invented indierock before Frank did" |
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leica
- FB Fan -
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 13:30:57
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I'm still catching up in here, there's been a lot of new posts.
Thanks to Jon T. for his comments, contributions, corrections
I am the one who suggested PayPal'g FB some money for the download; I realize that wont help viz a viz Soundscan, but still, it would be some way of our paying him back for his work.
If this album is showing up yet on Amazon - even if it is as "to be released" - I'd be happy to put in a pre-order for it there if that would in any way help to show interest for record companies, etc. I'd buy a copy thru them as well as my local music store the week of release.
I think the problem is not that FB.net fans aren't going to buy a copy. The problem is the album is now out there available for anyone, and not everyone is going to feel compelled to buy Honeycomb when it arrives in stores.
Definitely a dilemma we are all aware of. |
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leica
- FB Fan -
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 13:38:45
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
i wouldn't worry too much people, there's always a percentage of people who will download and not buy a certain album. i know it's a shame for it to be leaked so early - i kind of feel sorry for frank. but then again, i have a feeling only the fans are gonna hear about this leak and download it. these are the fans who are most likely going to buy it when it comes out anyway. it's not like everyone outside of his fanbase is talking about it - don't kid yourselves ;)
Good point. I thought of that myself. Really I think the only potential glitch is the fact that with the Pixies touring right now, there might be a little more interest from newcomers in FB.
But probably you are right, it's mainly us FB.net fans who are going to buy the album eventually anyway. I hope. |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 14:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by leica
I think the problem is not that FB.net fans aren't going to buy a copy. The problem is the album is now out there available for anyone, and not everyone is going to feel compelled to buy Honeycomb when it arrives in stores.
IMHO not everyone is going to download Honeycomb, because not everyone will hear of it and pay enough attention to it before its release. |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 14:29:40
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quote:
Originally posted by whoreatthedoor
Oh, come on guys! Try to be realistic. Nobody's gonna stop that. No one buys an album to hear it these days. It's faster (and cheaper) to download it. I've downloaded movies and records (and you, probably) before they were released in my country. Think about it, the number of computers is increasing every minute as well as bandwidth. New artists have started to share their songs for free. There is no way to stop it.
True fans are the only ones who will pay for this record, so Frank has nothing to be worried about.
"Mmmmm.... Está bien. Normalmente es aquí, pero esta noche..." - Jonathan Richman
Well, after reading Tiven's post it seemed to me that he (maybe they) weren't too happy with the leak. Thus i thought it perhaps was a bit inapropriate for the members of this board, which they participate in from time to time, to actively spread Honeycomb. Not because it would stop all downloads, but because the people who made the album weren't especially happy with the sharing. |
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leica
- FB Fan -
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 14:43:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
IMHO not everyone is going to download Honeycomb, because not everyone will hear of it and pay enough attention to it before its release.
Yes, of course, you're right. |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2010 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 15:51:54
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I just wanna state the obvious : I'll buy Honeycomb the first day of its release, like I did with FB records since Cult Of Ray.
ps: I hope Strange Goodbye will be on the album. It's my favourite so far. |
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Zsolt G.
- FB Fan -
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 17:18:58
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Jeezus...are we all getting bent out of shape or what.
1. Jon Tiven said that Frank paid for this album out of his pocket. That means if money is lost the only one losing it is Frank. No secretary or janitors will lose their jobs because this album didn't sell millions. The musicians were all session players who have already been paid.
2. Frank is cleaning up right now with this Pixies shit. He's ROLLING in it. If he needs even more money the Pixies can record themselves tuning their instruments and sell more records than FB solo ever would. Honeycomb is a vanity project. It was recorded to give the true fans a thrill and satisfy Frank's diverse musical ideas. Give some money to charity instead, OK? Besides, if there are going to be any buyers outside of the core group of maniacs, they won't exist unless this record is properly advertised and reviewed...which would only happen after a proper release.
3. Record companies have been ripping us off for decades now. I thought there was some big lawsuit about overpriced CDs? I'm sure the Lawyers made a ton of money, but the CDs at Borders are still 16.99 and up... CDs by artists that have been dead for decades. Elvis CDs are full price. Buddy Holly CDs are full price. The only people making money off these records are multinational conglomerates who also make everything from CD burners (which you can use to bootleg their own artists) to weapons systems. Then they paste an FBI warning on their packaging and put mandatory previews on their DVDs. Well they can eat poo as far as I'm concerned.
4. People have been bootlegging music since the 60s (not to mention buying used records, which is perfectly legal yet the artist makes no money) I remember my parents had some recordings of songs off the radio that they made with reel to reel machines. Why is radio "promotion" and the internet "theft"? The only reason the companies are making a stink about this now is because they aren't selling as many records. They are still making a shit load of money, but can't possibly sell as many CDs of thier shitty bands for 16.99 as they did back when you could by a Beatles LP for under $5.00.
All this being said I don't download much music and still buy CDs...so make of this what you will. Basically I support the right to steal music I guess. I intend to buy Honeycomb (and have not downloaded it, though I might want a copy now, since this is a collectable "rough mix")...so hopefully this leak will speed up the release of it.
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 18:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Zsolt G.
3. Record companies have been ripping us off for decades now. I thought there was some big lawsuit about overpriced CDs? I'm sure the Lawyers made a ton of money, but the CDs at Borders are still 16.99 and up.
They're $16.99 at Border's because the CDs are a large part of what keep Border's, the large chain with expensive overhead, afloat. CDs can be had for cheaper than that from many smaller businesses (ie. some independent stores) or chains that sell a large variety of other products (ie. Best Buy, Circuit City). Shop around. I rarely pay more than $12.99 for a new domestic CD. Every now & then a $14.99-er shows up, but it's not the norm and when it does show up, hey, that's ALMOST $12.99, but only $2 more.
The last CD I bought was the new Muffs. $11.99 at Best Buy.
I'm a content member of the Will Not Hear Honeycomb 'Til it Comes Out Club. I have a lot of other music to occupy my ears with until The Big Day. |
Edited by - Jason on 10/03/2004 18:08:38 |
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Apesy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 19:23:14
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New CDs at my local record shop (Newbury Comics, a small New England chain [and the best store ever]) usually cost between $9.99 and $12.99. I never feel like I'm being ripped off.
-=Apesy |
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leica
- FB Fan -
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 23:02:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Zsolt G.
Jeezus...are we all getting bent out of shape or what...
Everything you just said is interesting and thought provoking, but in this case it is slightly beside the point. I personally am not worried about reimbursing a record company for my download - I am solely concerned with screwing over an artist I support and respect. |
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Mike Rutherford
- FB Fan -
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 23:04:08
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| Geeez, everyone and their mother was itching to download this record 2 days ago and now that a shitload have the record they're suddenly "changing their minds" and think people should quit sharing? Ummm...well I guess that's fine since you already have your downloaded copy (and therefore have no more use for anyones "sharing")......I think people are getting WAY bent out of shape about this. Ain't a damn person that isn't a FB die-hard that knows jack-shit about this record to begin with, much less anyone outside of the hardcore fan base that gives a rats ass about it. I think it's rather safe to say that the people that have downloaded it will buy a legit store copy like they/I have for the past several releases. Downloading hurts bands like Metallica because everyone knows the name and casual listeners will download it and never buy it because they could care less either which way. Your casual listener is NOT going to be in a queu line waiting with baited breath for a copy of "honeycomb". |
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soundofataris
= Cult of Ray =
USA
715 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 23:24:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rutherford
Geeez, everyone and their mother was itching to download this record 2 days ago and now that a shitload have the record they're suddenly "changing their minds" and think people should quit sharing? Ummm...well I guess that's fine since you already have your downloaded copy (and therefore have no more use for anyones "sharing")......I think people are getting WAY bent out of shape about this. Ain't a damn person that isn't a FB die-hard that knows jack-shit about this record to begin with, much less anyone outside of the hardcore fan base that gives a rats ass about it. I think it's rather safe to say that the people that have downloaded it will buy a legit store copy like they/I have for the past several releases. Downloading hurts bands like Metallica because everyone knows the name and casual listeners will download it and never buy it because they could care less either which way. Your casual listener is NOT going to be in a queu line waiting with baited breath for a copy of "honeycomb".
yeah, exactly! So everyone should start sharing agin so I can get the three tracks I'm missing. After that, do what you want. I'm selfish.
everyone buy this thing. Its frank money, whom we all love. Of all the people to steal from, he is a choice that is less then ideal.
the sound of ataris kills me and my friends
'cause we know that we'll never go back there again
sometimes we play playstation
but it's not the same |
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Mike Rutherford
- FB Fan -
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 00:06:42
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| And just to add, I downloaded the Ellis Hooks album, enjoyed it, bought it. I highly recommend it to everyone that doesn't have it yet. His previous records are good as well. |
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prozacrat
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1186 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 00:11:32
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| I have yet to get a hold of any of them. I don't have the luxury of soulseek, too. Any suggestions? I was off seeing the man himself (& the band) this weekend and didn't catch all this hubbub. I have a great amount of respect for Jon and how gracefully he's handling all of this. So I'd personally like to thank him for being so understanding of us diehards. I think everybody's as eager as I am to nab the album when it hits the shelves. But, as an engineer, I personally really enjoy these rough mixes. It sheds more light on the way others go about getting to the finished product. No matter how minute the differences. So yes, Mr. Tiven, I'll keep an eye out for Uncomplicated. I'm not above a little back scratching. Not when damn fine music is involved. Cheers! |
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prozacrat
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1186 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 01:27:18
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| Never mind, kids. Got it. And now I have another reason to say "nice job" to Jon. Yeah, can't wait to put this album on my shelf. Loving it! |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 09:25:10
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I dl'ed it and am enjoying. I buy everything the guy has to offer so I have no ethical issue here at all.
Nice to see the Holmes Bros mentioned on this forum, they are great. I'll have to check out Ellis Hooks... |
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stymie
= Cult of Ray =
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 09:37:22
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| I know that I should wait to buy the record, which I will, but for now is there anyone willing to help me get a copy of honeycomb? Please. I need new music, too. |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 10:00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
with jean now confirmed as the female vocalist on strange goodbye, it is indeed the ultimate divorce song
 - "I joined the Cult of Frank / And they tried to cut off my nuts and make me put on a blue jumpsuit"
That and a song called "Violet", that says "flower of fertility"...
***********************************************
So you have no point of reference, Donny.
You're like a child that wanders INTO THE MIDDLE OF A MOVIE! |
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 10:04:23
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| bye |
Edited by - Jontiven on 10/19/2004 15:20:32 |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 10:27:05
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Hi Jon, thanks for all the infos. I (we) appreciate so much your commitment in Frank's work and that you take time to poste here.
I love the sound of this album. Terrible work.
The keyboards are great, I have to check out now on allmusic.com where to find some more Oldham's work!
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So you have no point of reference, Donny.
You're like a child that wanders INTO THE MIDDLE OF A MOVIE! |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 12:00:29
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Heh heh, I imagine he means terrific as opposed to terrible...
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 12:03:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jontiven
I will hold to my promise to keep you informed of the prospects of a 2-CD set as long as you scratch my back.
I'd buy the last Britney Spears' album if you wanted me to.
Er... I'd try anyway. I swear. :) |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 12:28:20
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| hey, remember when frank posted with a tracklist for a b-sides/rarities album? maybe this is the second CD? |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 14:06:24
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I don't go for that
as an artist I would never do a b-sides/rarities album as a second disc
I mean this honeycomb thing (I don't have it) sounds like something
that is really important to frank, why put some b-sides with it when this is supposed
to be a big album.
"I joined the Cult of Serge/'Cause he invented indierock before Frank did" |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 14:14:53
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I can safely say that "Oddballs 2" is an entirely separate entity.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 14:21:12
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| do you know if it's actually going to be released? or if it was just something he was thinking of and suggesting to others.... |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 14:26:16
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Hey Jon, thanks for the insider info! I was just wondering; if I buy Honeycomb from my local cool record store, does the purchase get "Soundscan'd"? Do I have to buy it from HMV or some other conglomerate? I'd really rather support a local indie store, but at the same time I'd like Frank to sit on a throne high up on a hill guarded by dogs paid for my Soundscan related promo numbers. Cheers!
 Wokka Wokka!! |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 14:30:37
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Frank Black posted the proposed tracklists for two b-sides/rarities albums.
Not knowing any more about this than anyone here not named Jon Tiven, my shot in the dark guess is that the possible second disc of HONEYCOMB could be a bonus ala the second CD of that UK edition of CULT OF RAY. Just some album outtakes. Because of the timing and what seems to be a move toward working with a new label, a (possibly limited) bonus disc with a few extra tracks, priced as a single CD, makes sense as an effort to draw a few more ears to a new and different Frank Black solo release.
Or maybe not. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 14:50:22
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quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
Hey Jon, thanks for the insider info! I was just wondering; if I buy Honeycomb from my local cool record store, does the purchase get "Soundscan'd"? Do I have to buy it from HMV or some other conglomerate? I'd really rather support a local indie store, but at the same time I'd like Frank to sit on a throne high up on a hill guarded by dogs paid for my Soundscan related promo numbers. Cheers!
Wokka Wokka!!
Probably it gets soundscan'd (or whatever the equivalent is in Canada) when the local store buys it from their supplier, at least that'd be my guess...
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 15:04:33
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I don't know if Soundscan is even in Canada, but in the US, Soundscan numbers are taken directly from sales to consumers. Previous to Soundscan, I think sales numbers/rankings did come from how many copies were shipped out to dealers. I remember reading that it wasn't until the Soundscan era that record labels really knew how popular country and rap music were. For the first time, they were getting reliable numbers on how many copies were being bought by consumers.
If you go to Best Buy and buy a Frank Black album, once they run the laser across the bar code on the CD, that's one more sale for the album on the Soundscan report. |
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