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FranknWeezer
= Cult of Ray =
USA
356 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2003 : 12:58:21
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Am I alone in this? Lately, I've pulled SMYT out of my cd changer rotation altogether...I just can't make myself try to like it any more. I think it has grown to be a more and more disappointing follow up to the double release last year by each listen.
Gone are the heavy slide steel of End of Miles and the catchy guitar changes in Valentine and Garuda, and we got in exchange what feels like it's hastily-put-together and chock full of whiny piano and the sound is altogether poor.
Now I have even more appreciation for the 'undervalued' (at least by me) tracks off of BLD aside from California Bound, Valentine, Miles, etc. BLD is snug back in my changer, and I've put SMYT to bed, Cult of Ray style.
Thoughts?
FranknWeezer |
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velvety
= Cult of Ray =
Portugal
536 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 15:14:15
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BLD starts to get a little boring after end of miles. Iīm always wondering how long will I have to wait until Jane the queen of love starts. Thereīs the 7 minutes of 1826 and those boring ballads. Except maybe for true blue, thatīs a cool little song. But even after Jane and Jet black river, the album doesnīt end in very strong note, 21 reasons and that version of black rider are not my favourite FB tracks.
SMYT, on the other hand, is great all the way through, i love every track. Still havenīt grown tired of it.
I donīt know, people seem to like those ballads in the middle of BLD, i think they take a bit of momentum from the album. The record starts out great, though. |
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Cookie
- FB Fan -
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 15:26:52
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| I have had a hard time growing to love SMYT. Perhaps I'll try again some time, but right now I've moved on. Frank's may be going somewhere I ain't gonna follow. |
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Cookie
- FB Fan -
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 15:44:16
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| In addition to containing a grammatical error, I think the tone of my last post was a bit strident. I like Nadine, Massif Centrale, and Everything is New quite a lot, but the country orchestration and the lyrical content of the other songs does not appeal to me nearly as much. Worse, some tunes ("Goodbye Lorraine" particularly) already feel like I've heard them a thousand times before. (That may be due to the fact that country and country rock are inherently conservative musical genres that don't allow much deviation from The Formula). Unlike past FB albums that would get my ears start to finish, only isolated songs on the album get my recurrent attention. I agree with the initial poster. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 16:22:05
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I haven't been listening to SMYT much lately. If I were to go put on a Frank CD now, I'd probably chose something other than that. Not that I don't like it.
Here is a trend in my experience with Frank Black and the Catholic CDs:
FB and the C's:
took a while to get into, couldn't stop playing it after I did
Pistolero:
took a while to get into, couldn't stop playing it after I did
DiTS:
took a while to get into, couldn't stop playing it after I did
Devil's Workshop:
took a while to get into, couldn't stop playing it after I did
BLD:
took a while to get into, couldn't stop playing it after I did
SMYT:
took me no time at all to get into, and I grew out of it just as fast as I got into it
So the trend stops at SMYT. I love the album, don't get me wrong
 "Join the Cult of Gunn / And you'll get an eighties Monster Ballad CD just for joining" |
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Cookie
- FB Fan -
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 17:44:04
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| I have had the same experience with many of Franks's albums, particularly the first FB&TC's--took awhile to get into, then I loved it. But SMYT has seemed to follow a different trajectory, as Proverbial mentioned--it's like I've heard those tunes too many times before. Well, maybe it will grow on me yet. |
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In her mirror
- FB Fan -
Spain
20 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 03:49:57
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I got really fast into SMYT and I discovered it was much better record than DW and BLD. I prefer a record that I can listen one time and another, again and again. And SMYT is this for me.
Can you say the same about BLD? or DW?
I don't think "massif centrale", "the snake", "manitoba" or "nadine" are "more of the same".
just for your fingers |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 05:22:19
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This might be a little harsh, but seeing as I've not included my thoughts of SMYT before now. I consider it one of my disappointing albums of the year. Yes I do have personal fav's on the disc, but as a whole I don't dig it.
I do like how people are re-discovering him again, but I just don't understand how SMYT's is the album to do it. Dog In The Sand should have been that album. I'm just glad he puts out an album a year.
Thomas
"Our love is rice and beans and horses lard" |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 06:08:27
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| Loved SMYT. Grew tired of it very quickly. There's just not as much depth to it as the others, which is probably why its so easy for everyone to initially get into... |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 06:35:31
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It's all about accessibility, as Bartholomew says... the songs that are I guess simple (for lack of a better word) enough to be catchy/enjoyed on the first listen are the songs that really only have one or two things going on consistently. So people are going to like the stuff with one big hook that gets in their ear nice and quick.
But Frank's other music has millions of tiny hooks. They get into your skin and you don't even know it, you listen a few times and they keep being added. Without realizing it, you're suddenly completly wrapped up with hooks and in love with the song. And because of the inherent depth of these songs (meaning non-repetition and all that sort of stuff), these songs last longer. After all, it's easier to pull out one big hook than millions of tiny ones.
Headache on TOTY is a great example of this. Good song, very enjoyable, every loves it right away, but in the end it's probably one of the most boring and easily tired songs on the CD.
It's all about anticipating that next hook; good music is about anticipation, bad music is about gratification.
 "Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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andyn
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
169 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 07:18:46
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| That's the reason I come back to Frank's albums again and again - for every "Nadine" (ordinary 12-bar blues with back-of-an-envelope lyrics) you get things as gorgeous as "Coastline" or "Everything Is New". It IS infuriating at times, but the great stuff far outweighs it. |
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Cookie
- FB Fan -
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:44:06
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| I like the hook analogy--it works on a number of levels. |
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Onion
- FB Fan -
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 03:38:18
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Yep, I like the hook analogy as well.
And I never really liked Headache either. Back in the old days it's the only FB's single one could hear on the radio (at least that I can remember), and I found it quite boring. So I didn't properly discover FB until 4 or 5 years after 
I wish it would have been Abstract Plain or something like that.
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 04:24:57
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Hey, Cult of Frank, you said almost exactly what I was going to say when I was reading the first few posts. I did consider what you said when I was listening to SMYT for the first time just recently. I thought, Wow, these songs are instantly catchy, I don't have to sit down and REALLY listen to this album closely and repeatedly to understand it... but that's not normal... usually I have a hard time understanding where Frank's coming from and where he is going when I hear his songs for the first time. Something amiss! It all goes back to when I first bought Bossanova and Surfer Rosa the first time and at first was flabbergasted at how much the Pixies were hailed as influential and revolutionary. I thought that both albums were very sparse on stellar material, there just weren't enough catchy hooks in the music, esepcially on Surfer Rosa. At first, I liked select songs like Allison, Velouria, All Over the World, and Dig For Fire from Bossanova, but then the strangeness of Is She Weird? really struck me, and I started to notice how what initially sounded jarring on these records started to sound structured and catchy with each repeated listen, and not because my ears were adjusting to it so much as there were so many odd little things going on in the songs and I was also beginning to hear the music in the entire context of the bands sound rather than just: here's track 1 without any idea what the next 13 tracks sound like and how this song, track 1, relates to those songs in the flow of things. Once I was able to wrap my head all the way around that sound, more and more hooks came out in the songs and the soon enough, the damn things sounded like genius works of songcraft and performance.
Turned everything black by spitting on the sun |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 06:29:39
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Yeah, it's funny how it just sort of sneaks up on you. You'd think after so many albums I'd be used to it, but it's always a surprise... "Oh wow, how did I not realize how great this song is?!" These revelations usually start around rotation 3.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 07:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Cookie
In addition to containing a grammatical error, I think the tone of my last post was a bit strident. I like Nadine, Massif Centrale, and Everything is New quite a lot, but the country orchestration and the lyrical content of the other songs does not appeal to me nearly as much. Worse, some tunes ("Goodbye Lorraine" particularly) already feel like I've heard them a thousand times before. (That may be due to the fact that country and country rock are inherently conservative musical genres that don't allow much deviation from The Formula). Unlike past FB albums that would get my ears start to finish, only isolated songs on the album get my recurrent attention. I agree with the initial poster.
I have pretty much the exact same thoughts on this album (and choices of stand out tracks). I have nothing else in my music collection that has a country influence (other than maybe Neil Young). Maybe it's something to do with my age, in that I started with the Pixies in 1987ish, then bought each successive album by FB and then FB&C. The 7 albums from Come On Pilgrim through to TOTY could be argued, in my opinion, to be the strongest ever single body of work by a singer/songwriter (i.e. no weak albums to 'spoil' the run). Up there with Neil Young (1969-1975), David Bowie (1971-1980), Bob Dylan (1963-1969). I'm sure there are others but I can't think of them now.
After such a strong body of work your expectations are obviously extremely high. FB's albums from COR onwards are very good but I wouldn't necessarily put them in the very great category (DITS possibly the exception). I'll continue to buy and enjoy his albums but I am hoping that he will move away from the country influences in the future.
 "I have been enslaved by the Cult of Ming / He is ever so merciless...unlike that nice Mr Black." |
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jackelope
- FB Fan -
22 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 02:23:53
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SMYT is some of his best work to date. "This Old Heartache" has yet to stop astounding me with its depth, in the combination of lyrics and chord changes; the lyrics repeat, but the key keeps dropping and dropping and dropping. It's a brilliant song, and indicative of the quality of the whole album.
IMHO, this is his best album yet. (OK, maybe tied with BLD.) |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 07:43:42
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I admit I haven't been listening to it much lately even though I think it's a great album, but with Pistolero for example: I thought it was great at first then stopped listening to it for a while and then all of the suddenone day I put it in and just like that it became one of my favorite albums ever. Maybe the same thing will happen with SMYT
Join the Cult Of Gunn / and you'll never need a hair stylist again" |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 09:03:42
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SMYT is pretty timeless. I love it.
I liked it when I first heard it and I like it now. I like it so much I even blew $35 on ordering the vinyl as a Christmas gift for myself. |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 10:19:53
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I think that SMYT is good, but I agree...not as good as the last two. Nadine and When will happiness find me again are really the only stand outs for me. I for one want to see the guy grow and do different things, cause I think it's unfair when fans continuously want Frank to be in his twenties for the rest of his life, however, I do want him to be a happy guy again. That's what it all boils down to me...I think he's just in a different mindset, perhaps just plain bummed out. Even the early Catholic records were pretty feisty, and the pre-Catholics records downright fun, playful, hilarious, and oozing of personality. My girlfriend had brackish boy on in the car yesterday, and it flat out made me giggle. Oh well, I'll be on top of anything he puts out immediately no matter what.
True cynics are nothing more than dissapointed idealists. |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 11:26:45
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| I totally agree with the whole issue that a lot of songs can be pretty hard to get into at first listen. That's completely understandable. You'd expect a riff that you've never heard before (i.e. "HIs Kingly Cave") to take a little longer to sink in than a riff that sounds a little familiar (i.e. "Horrible Day") And I think SMYT is characterized by the latter a bit more than Devil's Workshop or Black Letter Days. SMYT is much more a 'classic rock' album, a lot of simple, unsophisticated riffs and melodies that don't respresent the abstract and eerie qualities of Frank. But this isn't to say those qualities are non-existent in SMYT. "This Old Heartache"? Totally Frank. That song is one that takes a while to get into. When I first heard it, I thought "this isn't really a catchy tune that I can sing to myself when I'm alone". But now I think, "Wow. What an excellent song." And I have sung it to myself many times. And what's really great about SMYT is the way it feels. Now this may not be something I can describe, but "New House of the Pope" seems really dark and mysty and a bit mysterious. You know, I don't get that from an album like Dog in the Sand. Dog in the Sand seems, more or less, a bit brighter and happy. Songs like "Blast Off" and "Llano Del Rio" are very fun and cheerful. SMYT feels different. I think that "Out of State" is better than "My Favorite Kiss", because OOS has that cool meter during the chorus and the awesome 8-chord verse that corresponds so beautifully with a vocal melody that I can easily say I never heard in any other song. (It does kinda sound like "Motorway"; maybe that wasn't the best example, but you get the point) But comprable is "If it Takes All Night" and "The Snake": two very rootsy, classic rock numbers. But you know what one I think is better? "The Snake". So I can easily appreciate SMYT for what it is. |
Edited by - IceCream on 12/28/2003 14:37:43 |
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Stevio10
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1118 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 20:29:11
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| Hmmm, i think it's a bit of a strange one the whole topic. While I respect others opinions and if someone prefers something to something else then thats their choice i wont try and change it. However, while we're on the subject of big hooks and catchiness it made me think and try to place into context with other bands and "genres". For example, if anyone listens to the Pogues a lot of their songs can be described as "catchy" and a lot of the time when im listening to the Pogues and singing their songs, im usually drinking. A song such as Sally Maclennan is the perfect drinking song and I see a big big similarity between that particular song and Horrible Day. Maybe not musically, but the whole catchiness, longing for times gone, drinking your worries away and just generally reminiscing about something/someone etc...in my experience people or friends generally do that when theyre together drinking. You know, even Frank says, get the wine...then get the whisky! But fair enough, I understand where the points are coming from. I just think it's a good thing to have the variation, I like as much as anyone "getting to know" a Frank Black album, it's one of the best periods, the whole "making friends" with a Frank Black album and sure, each one has a different personality. Some friends stay in touch forever, some come and go. Such is life, such are people - look at Robert Onion; layers and layers. Personally, Im glad Frank has been drinking at the new house of the pope, just wish i could have bought him beer and whisky cos hes going far away. Singing Pogues songs. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 21:31:05
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i like the hook analogy too, though i don't completely agree with it. i don't think it's always easier to take out one big hook than a bunch of small hooks; more complicated doesn't necessarily equal better.
nor does "immediately accessible" always lead to a shorter shelf life.. some of the most classic, timeless songs are just one simple hook but you don't get sick of them because they're perfect. like, "Dancing The Manta Ray" for instance.. can't get much more simple.. or "Louie Louie," or "Beat On The Brat" or "Teenage Kicks"..
i think it comes down to whether or not it's a good hook. which is simply defined by, whether or not you feel it. like Stevio says (essentially), good is subjective.. what one person finds catchy, someone else might find lame. music criticism is fickle at best.. but it's still fun to talk about.
i have to agree about "Headache".. i grew tired of that, and usually skip it.. but i don't think it's just because it was instantly likable.. it's just... that's how it is with that song. all i'm saying is, however complicated or simple, i think each song has an equal chance of becoming boring, or becoming my favorite song for life. |
Edited by - floop on 12/28/2003 21:43:02 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 21:45:52
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On a completely unrelated note, a guest at our house brought a bottle of the Chateauneuf du Pape. I took a glass and sat in my darkened room listening wilst drinkin' at the New House of the Pope.
It's actually quite a tasty wine.
</sidetrack>
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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