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Pete Egress
- FB Fan -
USA
49 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2003 : 12:06:37
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It seems like over the years Frank has slowly abandonned the wide eyed yearning for the mysterious, which was present in the Pixies music as well as the earlier FB albums. I guess its just maturity and focusing more on songwriting as well as looking back at the traditions of other singer songwriters for inspiration.
I have always been touched by the subjects and references in FBs songs:
Fascination for the planet Mars and the lore that goes with it (the aleged "face on Mars", ie Marsist, Olympus Mons, Planet of Sound, Kicked in the Taco)
The UFO phenomenon (FB had actually said that he believed he was abducted by aliens (?))
(Men in Black, just about every other Pixies song)
Love affairs with bizarre creatures and aliens (Velvety, Velouria)
Time Travel and the future (Pong--ie: HG Wells, Punk Rock City, Space is gonna do me good)
Finding beauty in the morbid (the Swimmer, St. Francis Dam Disatser, Hermaphroditos)
The Cosmos (Places Named after Numbers: ie, M31 and other galaxies, Into the White)
Alternative film references (Eraserhead, Un Chien Andalou)
In a sense, I've found FB to be the philosopher poet, visonary of pop/punk for a long time.
His foray into the last few albums with the Catholics have a different set of references, more Tom Waits, Leonard Cohen Roxy Music and PAtty Smith influenced. He's focusing more on the raw musical forms and less on using music to ponder the meaning of life the universe and everything. Not a bad thing at all, just different.
Anyone like to discuss?
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 12:22:51
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| I know people are going to flame me on this - but to me his more recent music seems more grownup, more adult, in a way. Like now he is writing about love and life and feeling his age and the way the world is, etc. Less fantasy and imagination and UFO's more, well, real stuff in his life - if you know what I mean. I think there were definetly earlier songs where he dealt with that stuff as well, and I think he is still interested in the 'out there' things - but to me it just seems the music is more internal these days. Even the title SHOW ME YOUR TEARS, is the most emotional he's done, I think. |
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Pete Egress
- FB Fan -
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 12:28:24
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I agree Ramona.
I think that wide-eyed tendency he had has been replaced by a focus on what life is all about. Love and relationships, loss, deeper stuff in a mundane sense rather than a cosmic sense. I can relate just as well to the current stuff as I am in a different place then I was in 1987 in terms of depth and maturity--I hope anyway. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 12:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete Egress
Finding beauty in the morbid (the Swimmer, St. Francis Dam Disatser, Hermaphroditos)
Sorry, I'm going to leave the rest of topic out and focus only on this category. I don't interpret any of these songs as "finding beauty in the morbid". I particular, I like SFDD because it takes the perspective of the water and while not ignoring the devastation that it caused explains the story as the "yearning" of the water to "run to the sea" (downhill). A fresh perspective.
I'm a biologist (thus the silly username) and my work concentrates on understanding why animals do what they do. Not passing judegements on the behaviors, but understanding what motivates or to use an older term drives individuals them to use different behaviors. I do this because I am interested in how the world works and what forces are important in determining how individuals behave. The song appeals to me because it is doing the same thing with the water.
Why is the Swimmer morbid? I guess the interpretation of the song isn't particularly clear to me, but I have thought the subject is a species evolving back into the ocean, like whales. Nothing particularly morbid about that, but I may be missing some the meanings/interpretations.
I haven't thought much about Hermaphroditos, but the world is full of hermaphrodites (many flowers, fish, worms, and ect). So, I don't think of them as morbid, but I guess I might if I assumed the subject is a human. I probably should.
That's my take. |
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Pete Egress
- FB Fan -
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 13:46:57
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I love the song SFDD. Its definitely a fresh perspective, to say the least. My point is that a subject that would usually be seen as morbid (thousands of drowned victims of a flood for instance) is expressed in a way thats quite beautiful. The focus of the song is on the flood itself, as you say. Most songwriters might focus on the human disaster, but Frank includes the human tragedy almost as an aside--focusing instead on the floods desire to find the sea--and its a triumph when it does. I dont refer to the song as morbid as passing judgement in any way. I find it that much more intersting that FB chooses to see the world the way he does.
Maybe morbid is too harsh a word. My take on the swimmer is someone attempting to swim to his or her death.
"It was so incredible, finding all the edible...prize of the sea"
My take on this is that this person has given his life and in doing so is providing a feast for the sharks, so to speak. One might see this as morbid and horrific as a passive observer, but Black changes he perspective to that of the fish, and the joy they recieve in devouring the swimmer---and the song still has a sense of beauty and sadness. Its a celebration of the act of drowning. Again, thats not a judgement at all.
Hermaphroditos has the line "How do I love you, deeply with my scalpel." Scalpel and love used together creates a feeling of uneasiness--disfigurement and pleasure. Reminds me of the line "slicing up eyeballs" from Debaser--which is about a french film. Those lines are screamed with joy.
The sense of what might be seen as morbid or dangerous or disturbing to most, is often expressed in a unique way through FBs lyrics. |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 13:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete Egress
The UFO phenomenon (FB had actually said that he believed he was abducted by aliens (?))
(Men in Black, just about every other Pixies song)
Anyone like to discuss?
Not to sound like a complete FB/BF nerd but I think he said he was exposed to a UFO when he was 3 months old. He sings about it in Manta Ray.
"since I am told, month number 3, he has no memory, of flyers in the night, police they say, my mother too, a fish from ocean flew above my head that night"
Or it could be a bad trip to Sea World with and a Manta Ray jumped over his head.
Thomas
"Our love is rice and beans and horses lard" |
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Pete Egress
- FB Fan -
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 13:57:56
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I hadnt looked too deeply at Manta Ray--but that could be.
I've read interviews with him where he had mentioned a UFO abduction--perhaps this was it.
Another example of the UFO phenomenon was Parry the Wind. Its about his trip to a UFO convention. I remeber reading an interview a while back where he described the trip. I think it was Mondo World right avter the first FB album came out.
Then theres The Happenning from the Pixies days--all about a UFO landing. I also think Trompe LeMonde (the song) is partly about winess ing a landing. ("out on the free-freeway, theres only you and the they represented by the light") |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 14:13:39
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I've always looked at Parry the Wind as a two part song like 'A Day In The Life". The first few lines someone is really getting abducted. Then all of a sudden it shifts into this UFO convention with all these strange people who probably wish they were being abducted. The song ends with that poor sucker from the beginning who is really getting abducted.
Thomas
"Our love is rice and beans and horses lard" |
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Pete Egress
- FB Fan -
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 14:18:53
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| Thats great--hadnt thought of that. The theremin comes in at the end of the song--and Frank has always used the theremin to invoke the 50's SciFi UFO reference. The tension of the song as it ends would support what your saying--the abductee in a state of panic and fear. |
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 14:22:43
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I agree with you as well Ramona. You're spot on.
This actually seems like the kind of topic I expected to read on this sight.
Very Intelligent comments all around. |
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Itchload
= Cult of Ray =
USA
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 20:23:34
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| Interesting point, which I agree with. Of course, it comes in spades. The first Frank Black and the Catholics album--at the time I remember thinking "wow, this is a total lyrical departure". I guess you do have All My Ghosts being about giants and mythical things like that, and I'm sure there's some other otherwordliness happening, but for the most part it was about more emotional things, with nary a UFO in sight. Pistolero had Billy Radcliff and Skeleton Man, so it came back a little bit more, and Dog in the Sand was kind of a return to form with Bullet/Blast Off/Dog in the Sand/The Swimmer/Hermaphroditos/Robert Onion being full of the otherworldly mystical lyricism of early Frank. Now these new releases are more grounded in human emotions, BLD particularly in sort of a cross country Americana and Show Me Your Tears, though I haven't heard it, is probably going to be his most human/emotional album yet. He's exploring his range, and doing a good job at it. You can tell by the press kit page he writes about each new album, that recently he's definitely going for a world-weary singer song writer persona as opposed to the sci-fi weirdo persona that typified his first 3 albums. But, I'm still willing to bet that he'll continuously return to the earlier lyrical areas, as they seem to be his calling card, but I'll continue to welcome any newfound maturity in his recent albums. |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2003 : 23:46:10
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i somewhat disagree itch - i think DITS has very "human" songs - they just tell stories. hermaphroditos is echoing a mythical tale, bullet is somewhat based on real life (his dad's gun collection), the swimmer isn't exactly mystical either. i think DITS has some of his most imaginative lyrics, because they somewhat bridge the gap between his more otherworldy lyrics of the orange album and the americana of BLD and SMYT.
-brian |
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Pete Egress
- FB Fan -
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2003 : 22:49:04
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Bullet does seem to have some references to the mystical. Valhalla is the Paradise/Heaven of Norse mythology. There is mention of his "friends from outer space" as well. When I first heard Bullet, I thought it was sort of a "Signs" scenario. A family holed up in a cabin awaiting the imminent invasion and hoping to keep the revolution alive---or maybe I've watched too many X-Files episodes.
I like the term "Americana" in describing FBs recent transition. It describes his sound very well.
I am enjoiying the last few albums very much, and but glad there's a track like Massif Centrale on the new album. I prefer the raw energy/chord changes/storytelling of the earlier days. if I had a choice between Americana and "Frank-punk" I guess I'd choose the latter.
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2003 : 00:58:35
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| Well, I think Frank has hardly left the mystical completely. Yeah, there are more personal songs, but 'Manitoba' seems to be about God and being abandoned in the dark, 'Jane, the Queen of Love' is about a wierd cult which believes in free love. His Kingly Cave is about a visit to Graceland and thinking about death. Modern Age and Velvety and both older songs but obviously Frank is still very much interested in them, ergo they are on Devil's Workshop, and 'Marigold' is also a mythologic reference. |
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Jettison
- FB Fan -
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2003 : 05:46:08
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"It's hard to sing about pronouns, about he or she or I, without sounding really boring or vague. If you can get away with singing about space or the weather or the ocean it comes off grander, more mystical..."
-Black Francis |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2003 : 06:53:24
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Egress
Finding beauty in the morbid (the Swimmer, St. Francis Dam Disatser, Hermaphroditos)
Sorry, I'm going to leave the rest of topic out and focus only on this category. I don't interpret any of these songs as "finding beauty in the morbid". I particular, I like SFDD because it takes the perspective of the water and while not ignoring the devastation that it caused explains the story as the "yearning" of the water to "run to the sea" (downhill). A fresh perspective.
I haven't thought much about Hermaphroditos, but the world is full of hermaphrodites (many flowers, fish, worms, and ect). So, I don't think of them as morbid, but I guess I might if I assumed the subject is a human. I probably should.
That's my take.
I'm actually torn on this as well, whether its finding beauty in the morbid, vs. defining morbid to begin with. As a photographer, I am fascinated with the work of people like Diane Arbus, probably more so than your Richard Avedons, et al -- it's something that Annie Liebovitz is finally getting around to doing as well (her portraiture of Women is finally getting away from that glamorization). At first, ARbus is quite disturbing, but I can't take my eyes off her work because I find it more interesting, beautiful if you will, in those things that are more everyday -- but since they don't normally have the lens on them, we see them as uncommon -- a woman with droopy breasts, a pair of identical twins, a person with physical "abnormalities".
And I do agree with many here that Frank's work hasn't lost the magical, its just woven in more with some maturity. Its not like he's lost his fascination with it, but in his growth, he's come to understand his place in it. It's a part of my life I feel as well coming on (he's only five or so years younger than I chronologically, and I won't venture to say whose younger or older in other respects), which is probably why I enjoy his recent work more than his old band.
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PsychicTwin
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1772 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2003 : 07:03:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete Egress
I prefer the raw energy/chord changes/storytelling of the earlier days. if I had a choice between Americana and "Frank-punk" I guess I'd choose the latter.
I would choose "Frank-punk" as well. His Americana stuff is still very good and I've managed to get into this new phase in his song writing, but his best stuff is by far what you term "Frank-punk." |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2003 : 07:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by PsychicTwin
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Egress
I prefer the raw energy/chord changes/storytelling of the earlier days. if I had a choice between Americana and "Frank-punk" I guess I'd choose the latter.
I would choose "Frank-punk" as well. His Americana stuff is still very good and I've managed to get into this new phase in his song writing, but his best stuff is by far what you term "Frank-punk."
You know though, its not like hes not playing the "frank-punk" -- witness his last tour. He's just not WRITING it now. When writing, creating, whatever, you get into modes, into periods, you're not all over the map, and if you were, you'd find it hard to shift gears all the time, in (as we say in the software business) the "development" stage. You concentrate on one mode and you do it well. But he still has his entire portfolio to lean on. I've said it in other threads, the thing that I like about Frank in general is that he's constantly growing and maturing, and he's nowhere near finished yet. Its an entire body of work that continues to evolve. |
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2003 : 07:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by PsychicTwin
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Egress
I prefer the raw energy/chord changes/storytelling of the earlier days. if I had a choice between Americana and "Frank-punk" I guess I'd choose the latter.
I would choose "Frank-punk" as well. His Americana stuff is still very good and I've managed to get into this new phase in his song writing, but his best stuff is by far what you term "Frank-punk."
Sorry, though I love that part of Frank, thank god he doesn't stagnate.
These new songs are the most mature, well crafted of his career. They may not be "goofy, rocking, fun FB" but ANY artist would be proud to accomplish the depth of his recent material.
He's a great story teller.
"Winter blows through my coat"
the what four http://www.mp3.com/phelan |
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Pete Egress
- FB Fan -
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2003 : 08:14:20
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As I said, I am enjoying the sensitivity and maturity of the last few albums. Its actually a pretty remarkable evolution looking back at all he's done. Thers a lot of introspection there and a very genuine style he's developed. Though there are obvious influences in the current work, he's not trying to emulate one style or artist. he is just following his "bliss" so to speak.
I saw him recently in Philly and after he performed one of the more "subtler" recent songs (i'm embarrassed to say I cant remember which it was!!) there was a luke warm response from the audience. He joked and said--"I guess that song sucks. My problem is I cant tell the differnece between which one ssuck and which ones are good" to which we all laughed.
He's just doing what he loves to do.
I am glad he is changing and evolving his craft. We all need to be sure we are growing and changing and learning. My favorite songs off of BLD are 21 reasons and Cold Heart of Stone. Cold Heart really evokes a feeling of winter time melancholy for me. But every now and then I just need the energy of Teeneager of the Year. "That is the Sauce of Chaos and thats an Order"--and i'm off to Mars, smiling at the brilliance of the lyrics and reference.... |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2003 : 09:56:01
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| I think the boarder album is Pistolero, Frank has very rarely rocked as hard on record since ('Black Rider I' and 'Velvety' are the only exceptions, although parts of 'Blast Off' may qualify). I wish Frank would combine the newer sensibility with some hard rock. |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2003 : 10:10:42
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| Omer my friend, have you heard Nadine? Massif Centrale? Frank still rocks. Hard. Especially live, those songs really kick your ass. I mean, Jane is a great song, but it takes you out back and manhandles you like you're a Girl Guide live. Frank knows how to rock, no question. |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2003 : 00:41:16
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yeah, the live versions of songs like 'Jane' and 'Hemaphroditos' are often as hard rocking as anything FB/BF has ever done. But on record, both are tame. I hope the recorded version of 'Nadine' rocks as hard as it sometimes does in concert, but I guess I'll only find out in Septmeber :-)
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Chip Away Boy
= Cult of Ray =
914 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2003 : 05:38:05
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| i don't really consider nadine a rocking song, yeah he screams at the end of it...but it's much different than say " i want rock n roll " |
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