| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| 1965 |
Posted - 09/10/2006 : 17:49:20
Any thoughts?
I can't believe it is five years ago already. Still resonates as though it was yesterday.
(( I'm a Snake... )) |
| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| HeywoodJablome |
Posted - 12/24/2006 : 08:45:19
As a Christmas gift to everyone I feel it's time to reveal the truth about 9/11.
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"No one cares about your shitty band." |
| PixieSteve |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 14:20:56
happy 9/11!
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
| Little Black Francis |
Posted - 10/26/2006 : 21:45:20
you have to watch the "mystery of the urinal deuce" south park episode. http://www.mrtwig.net/
it just came out 2 weeks ago. It's very fitting
this is your new home |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 23:55:16
Heya..thanks for the quick responses..
re: WMD - i thought the UN had stated there weren't any?
re: AQ - they're definitely there now tho...
re: radical Islam..you should check out a book called End of Faith by Sam Harris..totally dismembers Islam (as well as all other religions, Christian soldiers) - they're all insane, really...
On an off-note, do you watch The Colbert Report? Thoughts? =)
 "Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been |
| Erebus |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 17:43:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Back to my original point, now that lots of time has passed, how do you feel about WMD's and Saddam's 'allegiance' with Al Quaeda being the reason for invading Iraq....? Do you still believe these points? If not, how do you feel about the gov't essentially lying (perhaps some really did *believe* these issues, but others must have known this wasn't true..hell, we plebs have been saying it since day one..) Thoughts?
Hello Dave. Nothing new to offer on these questions but I do want to give brief answers. Back when the decision was made to invade Iraq, the Saddam-WMD connection was being, and had long been, trumpetted by almost everybody, so I think it was reasonable for the Bush administration to act on that. The UN was little more than a series of empty resolutions and enough was enough. In light of what has been reported, it may be that Saddam himself was fooled into believing he had more WMD capability than was actually the case. It may also be that much of his WMD technology was smuggled out during the interminable run-up to the war. The Saddam-AQ connection was always minimal, but not nonexistent. To my mind they’re both reptiles from the same swamp. I don’t think the Bush administration is guilty of lying about WMD to get us into the war. The threat seemed credible and the risk was too great to ignore or address with another decade of diplomacy. Same principle applies today in regard to Iran and North Korea. So, no, I really haven’t changed my position much. I’m deeply discouraged by how the international community has responded to the attempt to eradicate Islamic terrorism, from the UN to the domestic left to, most especially, the press. Sometimes I think the West deserves its fate for being so unrealistic about what our enemies intend. We hold our tongues over paperhangers like Chavez, Castro, and Ahmadinejad, while losing no opportunity to crudely label Bush. Christianity is bashed from every corner but woe unto anybody speaking ill of Islam. It all seems so inverted to me. Radical Islam would be stupid to launch another 9/11 since we’re doing such a good job of destroying ourselves from within. But they probably are that stupid and will do themselves a great disservice by repeating the lesson most in the West failed to learn the first time. They’re serious, they’re dangerous, and they’re growing stronger. Force is what they respect and force is what they’ll get. Maybe we’ll even respond in time to stave off the military and cultural assault, but not in time to save hundreds of thousands of lives needlessly lost through naive hope and blind hatred of the right. In the meantime the left offers little beyond the deeply corrupt and dishonest Kofi Annan and his ilk. Pretty discouraging.
Sorry. Didn’t mean to hold forth, but as you can see I have quite the reservoir of anger and disappointment. Mostly I spare fb.net, and mostly we skirt such topics these days, but I will rise to the bait, bottom-dwelller that I am. Thanks for asking. Old times.
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| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 14:20:40
Erebus! Long time no see. =)
So sad to see you....you....softening! hehehe
I'm with you that it *is* hard to imagine the US Gov't behind 9/11...but it's also not impossible...so there may be some value in investigating, especially with so many questions that seem to pop up, without any explanation.
I agree that critical thought *must* be employed, and not dogmatic thought (ie, i believe this, so i will only look at facts that support this and dismiss the rest), but not every person out there who has an argument that 9/11 wasn't 'as it seems' can be a dogmatist....
Back to my original point, now that lots of time has passed, how do you feel about WMD's and Saddam's 'allegiance' with Al Quaeda being the reason for invading Iraq....? Do you still believe these points? If not, how do you feel about the gov't essentially lying (perhaps some really did *believe* these issues, but others must have known this wasn't true..hell, we plebs have been saying it since day one..) Thoughts?
"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been |
| Newo |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 13:10:41
quote:
Erebus Posted - 09/19/2006 : 17:05:04
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But in the case of 9/11, I just can’t believe the government could have kept secret its own machinations toward riling the American public.
The nature of intelligence operations is that information is so fiercely compartmentalised that most of the operatives don´t even know who they´re working for, let alone what their colleagues are doing. For this reason too, it is possible to consider a nongovernmental scenario for 911 as viable without considering a governmental institution as being peopled by scum from top to bottom, as you put it. If I talk with cyncism about governmental policies, i sure don´t mean to slander the many warm, wellmeaning people working in these institutions - just that a small number of wellplaced tyrants can really make a difference in what you do or don´t hear about in the news. For example, there are plenty police officers in drug units both sides of the Atlantic that complain whenever they reach near the top of a heroin connection, a member of the security services pays them a visit to say thanks and that they´ll take it from there.
quote:
Of course governments across the political spectrum have been guilty of just about everything and then done their damnest to cover their tracks
Such behaviour can resonate for a long time too - even for twenty years after World War II it was considered wingnut territory to suggest Nazis had burned the Reichstag for leverage for stronger and more vague antiterrorist laws.
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Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
| Frog in the Sand |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 11:23:01
I'm afraid someday the same "critical thinking" will lead most of us to think that nazi gas chambers never existed and were actually invented by Americans in 1945 
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Blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français |
| Erebus |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 10:06:06
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
What happens when you view the 'simple explanation' with the same critical eye that you view the non-government-proposed solutions, though? You encounter the same situtation, where you want to be there to debate Bush, Rice, whoever the talking head of the day may be because what they say contradicts with known facts in the most painful way.
I get this feeling watching the documentary videos as well, but I suppose I cut a little more slack because (at least to me) the context of it being speculation and slant are well established, whereas the government tend to pass lies off as fact. Remember the screaming about WMD, Iraq motivations, etc, etc? These are people who are wilfully critical of the government, and in these scenarios, correctly so.
Anyway, this is not to say that either side is truthful, but excluding one side from analysis is sure to leave you with only the doctored story, whether that story is a conspiracy or a document from the "department of international information".
Your points are sound, per usual. As I see you recognize, my comments were mostly a confession of how I operate regarding the divergent. I’m the same when it comes to books and movies: if the pretext seems implausible, I bail. Of course governments across the political spectrum have been guilty of just about everything and then done their damnest to cover their tracks, and that could be the case here. Just seems too complicated to me.
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| danjersey |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 22:42:29
colonies vs babylon
stage and rehearse
united in nation
limousine and the hearse
clean sheets of the latter
bell hop with a curse
days fly in september
then land in reverse |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 19:26:14
What happens when you view the 'simple explanation' with the same critical eye that you view the non-government-proposed solutions, though? You encounter the same situtation, where you want to be there to debate Bush, Rice, whoever the talking head of the day may be because what they say contradicts with known facts in the most painful way.
I get this feeling watching the documentary videos as well, but I suppose I cut a little more slack because (at least to me) the context of it being speculation and slant are well established, whereas the government tend to pass lies off as fact. Remember the screaming about WMD, Iraq motivations, etc, etc? These are people who are wilfully critical of the government, and in these scenarios, correctly so.
Anyway, this is not to say that either side is truthful, but excluding one side from analysis is sure to leave you with only the doctored story, whether that story is a conspiracy or a document from the "department of international information".
 "Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
| Erebus |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 17:05:04
quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
Erebus, you're a smart guy. Watch a few videos, take in as much information you can and try to sort it out for yourself. Suspend disbelief?
Thanks for the compliment. Lots of smart folks in these parts.
Did want to comment further on the disbelief. It's difficult for a dogmatic mind like my own to entertain discursions toward conclusions that contradict fundamental beliefs that I already hold (William James; Howard Margolis). But even when I do manage to wade in, as into one of these conspiracy videos, I find myself wanting to stop the video every minute or so to debate or discuss, but of course we cannot. The film’s narrative plods or races on, for the most part not even bothering to acknowledge the objections. I know that I could research at each point where I have questions, but that soon becomes points ad infinitum. Instead, to watch I must at each turn put aside my objections and sit passively, receptively.
Those here who have studied philosophy to some extent may have encountered the distinction between critical and dogmatic minds. While both employ logic, the dogmatic personality will tenaciously proceed to a conclusion having settled on the relevant premises, whereas the critical mind is better able to put aside allegiances to initial assumptions and thereby remain open to radically novel conclusions. But in the case of 9/11, I just can’t believe the government could have kept secret its own machinations toward riling the American public. So I have difficulty laboring through these conspiracy videos, because not only do I not think it’s possible the government could have pulled it off and then kept it secret but even if I could, about fifty times an hour I wll be watching askance with unanswered questions.
Is it possible? Yes. But it’s also easy to connect dots on an abstract plain, meaning that given that there is so much about that day that we cannot know, within that void of ignorance one can spin an infinity of possiblities and so connect the dots to conform with what one wants to be the case, in this case meeting the expectation/hope that the US goverment is pure scum from top to bottom and hyper-competent to boot.
Go with the simple explanation. There’s no reason to doubt the motivation and ability of Islamic radicals. They hatched a plot, years in advance, and then executed it. A bunch of guys flew planes into buildings.. A shocking testiment to faith and hate, but simple, easy, and believable. Instead minds all over the globe stretch toward explanations that will indict the US government. Go figure. Makes one wonder why anyone, government or person, even tries to behave decently. Damned whether they do or don’t. There are days when I wish the US government were as Machiavellian as their critics credit it. But they’re bunglers, like their critics and their enemies. They couldn’t pull it off, however much the ankle-biters want it to be so.
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| darwin |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 15:08:04
I watched the "9/11 Press for Truth" and found it plausible. Certainly the apparent inability of the US and Pakistan to catch Bin Laden seems odd. The newest agreement between Pakistan and Al Queda only adds to it. |
| Newo |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 13:33:19
quote:
I also don't believe the government would sacrifice so many and so much.
it seems to be paying off pretty handsomely, if having entire populations begging for stricter and more intrusive antiterrorist laws is what you´re into. sorry mister, I just don´t have as much faith in the higher echelons of the world´s governments´ regard for human life as you do.
--
Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
| darwin |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 13:33:03
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
I'm still one of those that thinks a bunch of brown people flew jets into the buildings, unaided by any manifestation of the US government.
Me too, except for the "aid" of the failed foreign policy and economic aid of the US government and oil companies. |
| speedy_m |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 13:27:03
Erebus, you're a smart guy. Watch a few videos, take in as much information you can and try to sort it out for yourself. Suspend disbelief? Anything is possible, and sadly I think the theories surrounding this event and the American government are all too possible.
he's back jack smoking crack find him if you want to get found
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| Erebus |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 13:00:24
quote:
Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey
Yeah where is Erebus?
My computer was in the shop the last eleven days, till about an hour ago.
I'm still one of those that thinks a bunch of brown people flew jets into the buildings, unaided by any manifestation of the US government. But I will admit I have only watched one of the conspiracy videos simply because they tend to make my mind glaze over. If I don't buy into the premises of an argument, I can't suspend my disbelief while continuing to watch or listen. I can't believe a conspiracy of such magnitude could remain hidden, and I also don't believe the government would sacrifice so many and so much. That said, I do believe FDR was looking for a way to get us into WWII and willfully suppressed military intelligence to allow the Pearl Harbor to go down the way it did. But Bush and 9/11? Too complex to keep quiet and insufficient callousness on the part of government.
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| Newo |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 07:53:13
one I like is by a guy called Eric Hufschmidt, Painful Deceptions. It´s a bit more dry and academic than say Loose Change, but devotes more time to examination of the buildings collapses.
caveat: take care navigating around these 911 truth sites, some of them are worthwhile but some of them seem wilful in planting interesting information alongside the most outrageous garbage. Too, this guy Hufschmidt claims to have been cordially barred from quite a few 911 truth seminars.
On the third anniversary of 911 there was a town meeting in NY with speeches by journalists, physicists, environmentalists and one Republican senator talking about the curious financial ties to 911 he found while investigating shell corporations. There´s a DVD made on the night at https://secure.reopen911.org/freedvd.php
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Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 07:31:32
quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
after watching the videos you might want to look at some sites, such as 911review.com (which generally makes points against the official story but also criticises videos such as loose change http://911review.com/disinfo/videos.html)
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th
Yeah, sites like (well, I didn't check out yours, but the one I linked above) that seem to take no sides are my favourite. The videos are useful in that they start people realizing that there is still a lot to question, even though many of the questions aren't really fair or sometimes valid.
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 04:46:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Apl - so nice to see you! =)
I'm curious to how some of the folks who used to totally dismiss these ideas are reacting now..? Where are they?!
"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been
Yeah where is Erebus?
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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| PixieSteve |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 02:49:36
after watching the videos you might want to look at some sites, such as 911review.com (which generally makes points against the official story but also criticises videos such as loose change http://911review.com/disinfo/videos.html)
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
| Little Black Francis |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 20:00:28
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Apl - so nice to see you! =)
I'm curious to how some of the folks who used to totally dismiss these ideas are reacting now..? Where are they?!
"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been
I'm right here, it only took me 5 years.
nice signature you post whore |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 18:58:24
Apl - so nice to see you! =)
Yeah, i'm glad the 'conspiracy' people are getting some validation. I certainly don't believe it all, but there are some really good questions posed...
I'm curious to how some of the folks who used to totally dismiss these ideas are reacting now..? Where are they?!
"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 00:55:14
Well, don't take it as verbatim truth by any stretch, but that you're not certain means you're thinking and that's always a good thing. :) There's a lot of stuff in there that doesn't wash completely or in some cases at all, but also a lot of interesting stuff that does. I don't know of any videos but here's some reading where one critic breaks it down line by line that might be of interest: http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/index.html
The main thing that gets me is the buildings collapsing. Especially bldg. 7. It just doesn't add up.
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
| Little Black Francis |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 23:15:21
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
For that stuff, Andy, check out Loose Change 2: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726
Wow. I'm feeling more and more like an idiot for offering the straight laced case. I would like to see a video presenting the opposing view of these 2, but the fact that there really aren't as many kind of makes the point that there was something very wrong about it. I don't know how I feel/think about it anymore. Sure it's been 5 years, I feel bad, but I haven't taken this much time really learing about it. I have a hard time questioning what I don't want to believe, and it's opening my mind while at the same time making me feel totally insecure about myself. I'm ready for the next video if someone wants to slide one my way.
... |
| danjersey |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 22:33:16
with a right and a left i will brake your neck just as eyes that are bright over looked
stories small from within solved or sold through the din
was the time and the take that it took.
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| apl4eris |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 21:24:49
You're welcome, Dean and Andy. Info is hard to find amid the morass of politics, mis/disinformation, and propaganda (on all sides).
For an in-depth, intriguing look at some interesting facts, with cited media sources:
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html
Here is Paul Thompson's "Complete 911 Timeline"
I was in the middle of a long explanation of my approach to deciphering what's going on, and then realized that there is no better argument in this case than to just point to the above gathering of facts and further research, and to encourage anyone with an itch to understand, to keep digging. I think that it's probably important to keep your mind open as to the possibilities. Conspiracy happens all the time, it's only sometimes that it becomes public, or is an easy sell for an audience. I don't trust any of our administrations (I don't believe in the left/right dichotomy anymore), or our government as a whole, and I believe that is healthy. It's unfortunately our duty to hold them to account and it starts with self-education. A free press has never really existed, but there are bits of useful information that can be pulled.
see "Operation Northwoods" (and other similar plans, successful and scrapped, that I can't remember at the moment, but if you are curious I'll get back to you), as precedent for conspiracies by government or agencies of it, or from outside.
The short of it is, something was and is terribly wrong, and for whatever reason, they aren't telling the full story. That's not acceptable, and there needs to be accountability. Seems to me, this isn't as simple as just oil, or just strategic resources/military bases, international corporations' interests, or keeping the iron triangle happy. And it's not just Right vs. Left. Far from it.
I've had a chronic illness for the last couple years, so I've had a lot of ...time on my hands for research, and it still isn't enough. Bush's advisor may be right, they may be quite capable of writing our history for us, while we're still looking back and wondering, wtf just happened? |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 19:53:43
For that stuff, Andy, check out Loose Change 2: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726
It's an interesting watch the whole way through although I feel it could've been put together better and without some of the more wild and unsubstantiated parts, but if you want to see the bits on the buildings' collapse specifically, start around the 30:15 mark.
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
| Little Black Francis |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 19:12:24
quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
for anyone who hasn't seen it, I highly recommend "911 Press for Truth" - the most level-headed treatment of the unanswered questions, and the struggle to get a thorough investigation and accountability, from the viewpoint of 9/11 victims' families.
I'd never seen it, it was definitely compelling. I wasn't quite sure what is being "covered up," is it that the Bush administration made an ignorant error and they were trying to make it look like it wasn't their fault? Or were they direcetly involved in it for some sort of gain? I still find it unfathomable to think the Bush adminstration would intentionally plot 9/11, more concievable that they dropped the ball, and then refused to admit it. I wish I knew the answers. The documentary did not go into any detail about the actual towers themselves, concerning explosives or anything radical like that. Anyways, thanks Aply.
... |
| hammerhands |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 15:30:32
I've always imagined OJ coming home, hands in a karate posture, pleading, "Not now Kato!" |
| HeywoodJablome |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 12:50:39
_______________________________________________________________________________________
"My name is Doug and I'm outta hhhhheeeere." |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 11:55:12
Thanks!
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
| apl4eris |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 11:18:28
for anyone who hasn't seen it, I highly recommend "911 Press for Truth" - the most level-headed treatment of the unanswered questions, and the struggle to get a thorough investigation and accountability, from the viewpoint of 9/11 victims' families. |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 20:43:12
quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
What the fuck is that shit?
Exactly!!!
Yes, i am applying a little 'reverse-Colbert' one might say. ;)
"Live life like you're gonna die...because you are." - William Shatner, You'll Have Time / Has Been |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 09/15/2006 : 08:24:39
Why you got to post when I am deleting and re-posting??? ;) 
"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you." |
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