| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Llamadance |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 11:06:09
As most of you may know, the four men suspected of the failed suicide bombings in London last week have been arrested. Obviously the authorities will be hoping to get information from them. But what if they don't talk voluntarily?
Is there a moral obligation to get as much information from suspects as is possible - so to better protect people. Or is the moral obligation to follow the letter of the law. (maybe this is all a bit 24)
Also what is torture? Is it just physical - electric shocks maybe; or is mental torture worse - sleep deprivation etc. Do you find one of these more acceptable than the other?
Lots of side issues I guess, so fire away.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Newo |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 14:04:09
Well I'm sure everone in Camp Xray feels like K in The Trial.
--
Develop interest in life as you see it; in people, things, literature, music -- the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself. |
| VoVat |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 13:50:21
quote:
What would Franz Kafka do?
Turn him into a cockroach?
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
| Carl |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 05:34:27
Nice. :( |
| Llamadance |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 02:24:35
There's an article here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/22/civil_libs_ditch/
which quotes a survey as saying "62 per cent of respondents were in favour of deporting foreign radical Islamists, even if that deportation was to a country that used torture. Only 19 per cent directly opposed this idea."
Which is kind of a passive acceptance of torture. Haven't found the quoted survey yet.
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
| Mass Pleeze |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 22:16:39
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
As most of you may know, the four men suspected of the failed suicide bombings in London last week have been arrested. Obviously the authorities will be hoping to get information from them. But what if they don't talk voluntarily?
Is there a moral obligation to get as much information from suspects as is possible - so to better protect people. Or is the moral obligation to follow the letter of the law. (maybe this is all a bit 24)
Also what is torture? Is it just physical - electric shocks maybe; or is mental torture worse - sleep deprivation etc. Do you find one of these more acceptable than the other?
Lots of side issues I guess, so fire away.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
Say you are a CIA field commander and you have Mohammad Atta in custody on 9-01-2001. CID intelligence knows he is a really bad guy and that he knows a little about flying jumbo jets. Where could his megalomaniacal, martyr seeking pals be - under what rock? Ehhh?
What do we do? Hindsight is twenty twenty but what the fuck do we do with this human piece of buffalo dung? Ehhh? Anyone care to ask NYPD or NYFD or Rudy?
Does this clarify our ethical dilemma? What would Franz Kafka do?
Mr. Grieves likes Manchester Utd?
|
| HeywoodJablome |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 12:54:36
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
But is sarcasm ever justifiable?
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied.
If it isn't then pretty everything that comes out of my mouth is unjustified. |
| VoVat |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 11:45:23
Is it ever justifiable to torch her, though?
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
| One Who Hath Swum |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 09:55:42
Torture is justified if she asks for it and pays the correct amount into my man-whore account. |
| Carl |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 09:53:04
Yes, it is, of course, for crying out loud, of course it is!! |
| VoVat |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 08:59:48
But is sarcasm ever justifiable?
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
| Carl |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 07:24:26
You darn liberals like to get all sarcastic, don'tcha? Just remember, this world was'nt built on sarcasm! It was built on war! |
| HeywoodJablome |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:52:13
Sure you can, just get Jeff Gilooly to do it for you. |
| broken part |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:48:47
fuck, yeah, torture is right.
I would dearly love to torture some ppl I know for no information what so ever.
As these stupid left-wing laws stand right now, I'll have to earn some money to pay others to do it secretly.
Fuckin' hippies. You can't even knee-cap someone anymore. |
| HeywoodJablome |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:53:19
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
Did you hear about when Richard Simmons slapped some guy at the airport?
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied.
Um, I'm quite sure he gets a lot of shit for the persona he displays. I'd hate to be the guy who had to admit that he got bitch slapped by Richard! He's actually a funny guy though, I like how he's obsessed with Barbara Streisand and constantly talks about her even though she and her "organization" repeatedly ask him not mention anything Barbara related. |
| VoVat |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 19:36:37
Did you hear about when Richard Simmons slapped some guy at the airport?
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
| Daisy Girl |
Posted - 08/13/2005 : 14:46:19
I think Richard Simmons is cute and peppy...his shorts are a little short tho
"I ain't goin to be what I ain't" |
| HeywoodJablome |
Posted - 08/13/2005 : 14:34:27
Richard Simmons is the only human who deserves to be tortured. |
| VoVat |
Posted - 08/13/2005 : 13:33:49
quote:
There is a move afoot in the US to outlaw solitary confinement as some consider it cruel and unusual punishment.
See, I've always thought that was kind of odd. Isn't the worst part of being in jail having to hang around with the other prisoners? I mean, there's no chance of anal rape in solitary confinement, right?
quote:
So the USA considers (well, maybe) solitary confinement as mental torture, but not being on death row for 18 years. Maybe they should consider outlawing the death penalty first?
I'm not opposed to the death penalty, but I think they should be really damned sure that the person deserves it before carrying out the sentence. If it can proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, I say execute them right away. I've never understood the whole Death Row thing.
quote:
I think at their core... all people want is to be loved and understood.
Maybe most people do, but I don't know about everybody. There are always exceptions.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
| Llamadance |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 14:08:58
It'd be immoral of me to refuse :(
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
| starmekitten |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 13:51:36
no, I'll cancel a hundred torturings so you can have yours
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
| Llamadance |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 13:29:43
torture me?
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
| starmekitten |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 13:26:56
you calling me loose?
why I'll...
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
| Llamadance |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 13:24:36
hmmm, I've been thinking about that (and my apparently fluid morality;) and I think we often make decisions based on the circumstances. eg It may be immoral to tell lies, but we all do it (white lies)- and the degree of lie we tell may be dependent on the person we tell it to, if we'll get caught, is it a half-truth etc
If we had been asked in the morality play quiz "is it right to tell lies", we'd probably have all said "depends".
This is just one example I guess, but I think we all display moral 'looseness' - it may depend on the issue though.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
| kathryn |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 09:36:26
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
My "Moral Parsimony Score" was a shocking 94%. I don't think of myself as moral. Hm.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
It's not about how moral you are (thats a different test) it's about whether you blanket apply your moral principles with little allowance for circumstance, like the cutting a hundred throats and cancelling a hundred operations, the outcome is the same but the way it is arrived at is different.
I'm still thinking about this by the way.
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else
I have been thinking about it, too, this weekend. I have several questions, the first being:
Is it a bad thing to be morally rigid -- to apply the same principle across many situations? I am leaning to no.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
|
| Daisy Girl |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 19:45:13
after stepping away from this topic... i think it ties to this new theme I have in my head... i guess you can call it a fine tuning of my moral compass.
I think at their core... all people want is to be loved and understood. this means all the ugly things they have hiding in their minds and hearts so what I would start with is love and understanding of those individuals...so if we start loving each other for our core essances that all we want to be loved and understood ... in time, it will make the need for torture obsolete. |
| Carl |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 14:29:23
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
I don't think anyone would seriously consider legalising torture in a democracy (heh, maybe I'm wrong)
They'll do it anyway. |
| Llamadance |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 11:01:09
quote:
Originally posted by Newo
quote:
Torture of a suspect kind of presupposes guilt.
This is the core of it for me. When you agree with these moral arithmetic musings like would you kill a hundred to save a thousand it has much bigger implications than just that one case, and if it is legalised you give gubbermint agencies free rein to torture any hundred people on the basis of saving any thousand people whether they be real or fabricated. Even illegally, torture is still widely practiced and sanctified and it would be a thousand times worse if we signed away our right to complain about it. Violence breeds nothing but more violence, okay I've heard people before say Well we live in a real world with airplanes and tall towers I say that's fine you want to continue the physical/mental harm route just don't say it's because you want peace because you don't. I don't judge anyone for making a pronouncement favouring torture in one of these "if this then that" games, all I can say is you won't catch me playing it.
I don't think anyone would seriously consider legalising torture in a democracy (heh, maybe I'm wrong), because as you say it would be abused, but as a 'black art' to extract information for the good of the country it could have some uses. I agree that it may have bigger implications than just one case, but as in all things you have to make decisions based on the information you have at the time.
It's an extreme example, but if you knew for certain that torturing one person would provide information that would save the human race (whatever that is) I can't understand anyone not doing it. Maybe Judas had some foreknowledge ;)
As for the 'games', it's an interesting and useful way to work out how we feel about things. If you have an absolute, unshakeable opinion, then maybe it would serve no purpose, but few of us have that.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
| starmekitten |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 08:01:45
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
My "Moral Parsimony Score" was a shocking 94%. I don't think of myself as moral. Hm.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
It's not about how moral you are (thats a different test) it's about whether you blanket apply your moral principles with little allowance for circumstance, like the cutting a hundred throats and cancelling a hundred operations, the outcome is the same but the way it is arrived at is different.
I'm still thinking about this by the way.
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
| PixieSteve |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 07:46:18
no.
 Oh let it linger |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 07:15:16
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
No, ask anyone who has been in a bad relationship and the head fuckery is the worst bit, mental torture the nice version my eye.
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else
Don't believe the type!
|
| Newo |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 05:55:05
quote:
Torture of a suspect kind of presupposes guilt.
This is the core of it for me. When you agree with these moral arithmetic musings like would you kill a hundred to save a thousand it has much bigger implications than just that one case, and if it is legalised you give gubbermint agencies free rein to torture any hundred people on the basis of saving any thousand people whether they be real or fabricated. Even illegally, torture is still widely practiced and sanctified and it would be a thousand times worse if we signed away our right to complain about it. Violence breeds nothing but more violence, okay I've heard people before say Well we live in a real world with airplanes and tall towers I say that's fine you want to continue the physical/mental harm route just don't say it's because you want peace because you don't. I don't judge anyone for making a pronouncement favouring torture in one of these "if this then that" games, all I can say is you won't catch me playing it.
--
Les cacahuetes c'est le mouvement perpétuel à la portée de l'homme . |
| Llamadance |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 01:03:12
quote:
You cancel a hundred operations but could you as an individual cut the throat of a hundred people just knowing some anonymous thousand will live? I couldn't do it.
In that test I made a distinction between the two, despite the outcome being the same. The difference being in my actions and the effect it would have on me. Not great, I know.
So, to apply this to the topic, could I order someone to torture, say, a terrorist to get information that would save hundreds of lives. Yes, probably. Could I do the torture myself? I really don't know. Probably not. If the lives of my family depended on it? Yes, no question.
quote:
There is a move afoot in the US to outlaw solitary confinement as some consider it cruel and unusual punishment.
So the USA considers (well, maybe) solitary confinement as mental torture, but not being on death row for 18 years. Maybe they should consider outlawing the death penalty first?
Nobody has really mentioned guilt yet (apart from maybe Carl). Torture of a suspect kind of presupposes guilt. Would that undermine an even more fundamental tenet of our society? Or is that an acceptable risk given the gains?
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
| Carl |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 19:11:33
The way the terrorist suspects held in Guantanemo Bay and Afganistan amounts to a serious violation of human rights. They should'nt be treated like that, anyway. |
| floop |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 18:54:15
what about smaller-scale torture? like being a passenger in a car that is playing Wilco |
| kathryn |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 18:43:12
Great topic, Steve.
There is a move afoot in the US to outlaw solitary confinement as some consider it cruel and unusual punishment.
Isolating prisoners 24/7 leads to severe sensory deprivation which, in turn, leads to hallucinations and mental illness.
The US is the only First World nation that legally allows this.
My "Moral Parsimony Score" was a shocking 94%. I don't think of myself as moral. Hm.
Tre, I don't think you are naive and I do agree with you. I will say, however, that with the kid thing, it's not so much love as pure animalistic instinct.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
|
