| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| El Barto |
Posted - 01/12/2005 : 22:20:37
Because you probably won't read it in the paper or hear it on the news
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050113/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq_weapons
Duh. And the right wing called us crazy when we said they weren't there. Luckily Bush had at least seven other reasons in his pocket, just in case most of them fell through.
My favorite part is when Scott McClellan says it's about "protecting the American people." Yes, protecting us by getting well over a thousand of us (and counting) killed. Protecting us from WHAT? Remember, you're announcing the LACK of WMD.
It's this constant circus of "oh my god, I can't believe it." It's a brilliant tactic, because it just numbs the senses to a point where more and more shit like this happens and we'll stop caring. They'll just keep pushing the envelope and getting away with more and more insane bullshit.
I don't know which is scarier: that he stole the first election without consequence, or that he was reelected.
God bless America: proving once again that you can succeed with faulty intelligence.
I guess I just wasn't made for these times. |
| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 09:41:18
It's a real shame this topic has turned into a good example of why perhaps we should not have serious discussion on this forum. Basically because some people are too stupid to have them without resorting to name calling.
One thing that can be said for the "pointless" topics, they are free from such nastyness. In fact they are usually full of quite the opposite, as "pointless" as that may seem to some.
http://www.thefutureheads.co.uk/ |
| Broken Face |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 07:05:25
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by Scarla O
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
For those perhaps less familiar with American politics, most of the names you happen not to recognize would be US Senators and Reps.
And your point is? I don't think anyone should be even slightly surprised by this as the Bush administration are only following on the policies of the previous Democrat adminstration - US politics is in a permanent cycle of self-denial.
I just wanted to make sure that anyone singling out Bush on the WMD issue also realized how pervasive the belief in Iraq WMD was, across the political spectrum.
Erebus, i will agree that many people on both sides were convinced of Iraq's WMDs. I have a problem w/ 2 pieces of this debate (not brought up by you) - a) that Bush and his staff are NOT accountable because everyone else thought there were WMDs as well and b) that NO ONE denied the WMDs.
First of all, the issue of accountablity. If i were super convincing and told everyone i know that as of feb. 1 the stockmarket would collapse and all US banking, stocks, bonds, etc would fall that day, and suddenly all x-ammount of people i know take all their savings out in cash and hide it in their homes, effectively preparing for this day, and that day never came, i am STILL held to be accountable for the problems that i have caused. In fact, i am MORE responsible than i would be if not a person believed me. Do i blame Bush for being fooled? Not really - i never really bought it, but so many did, that what the hell, i'll give him the benefit of the doubt for once. However, you have a responsibility to your nation and to the world community to speak up now and say "We made a mistake - we started a war on false pretenses." But that will never happen, because somewhere along the line this war became about a regime change and a liberation mentality.
Secondly, there clearly were people who didn't believe the WMD piece from the beginning, and that is never ackowledged. To ignore them is to let the gov't off the hook even more, and there is no reason for that. Our gov't fucked up - let's agree on that and move on.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
|
| Erebus |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 06:48:12
quote:
Originally posted by Scarla O
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
For those perhaps less familiar with American politics, most of the names you happen not to recognize would be US Senators and Reps.
And your point is? I don't think anyone should be even slightly surprised by this as the Bush administration are only following on the policies of the previous Democrat adminstration - US politics is in a permanent cycle of self-denial.
I just wanted to make sure that anyone singling out Bush on the WMD issue also realized how pervasive the belief in Iraq WMD was, across the political spectrum. |
| Stuart |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 05:38:55
America.... fuck yeah!
This is a high class bureau de change, not some Punch & Judy show on the seafront at Margate! |
| Scarla O |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 01:29:52
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
For those perhaps less familiar with American politics, most of the names you happen not to recognize would be US Senators and Reps.
And your point is? I don't think anyone should be even slightly surprised by this as the Bush administration are only following on the policies of the previous Democrat adminstration - US politics is in a permanent cycle of self-denial.
_________________
www.scarlao.co.uk
|
| Stuart |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 00:24:10
This is interesting.... I'll post when I get home.
This is a high class bureau de change, not some Punch & Judy show on the seafront at Margate! |
| Newo |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 07:49:07
Hey Dallas why don´t you answer my question? Cmon I´m not adverse to having my belief system pummelled once in a while.
--
If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
| Erebus |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 10:11:02
For those perhaps less familiar with American politics, most of the names you happen not to recognize would be US Senators and Reps.
If The Bush Administration Lied About WMD, So Did These People -- Version 3.0
by John Hawkins
http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998
"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others
"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002
"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998
"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998
"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002
"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002
"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002
"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002
"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003
"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998
"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002
"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002
"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002
"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002
"Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to deprive his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim Jeffords, October 8, 2002
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002
"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002
"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002
"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9, 2002
"(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002
"Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002
"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002
"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998
"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002
"Saddam’s existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq’s enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002
"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration’s policy towards Iraq, I don’t think there can be any question about Saddam’s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002
|
| Dallas |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 09:52:22
Duh El Barto, you came up with all of those quotes and not one from someone who supports your dimwitted assertion that YOU (of all people) and others were telling the world there were NO WMD's in Iraq.
And dolt, if Bush is a liar, what are all the other leaders of the world and their intelligence agencies? They were saying the same thing. Seriously, how thick must one be to miss that point. Can you answer that? Maybe if you dig up some more quotes!!
Bush lied!!! Clinton Lied!!!!! They all did! I wonder if they will stop thinking YOU are crazy for saying all along that there were no WMD's?
Your all mouth and no brain stem. Sorry, but I am trying to put it in terms you can understand. If you have any neurons up there, how about explaining the same assertions made by all of those other leaders before the war? Why did they lie to support Bush??
Why years before Bush was even in office did the US Congress make those same claims and vote overwhelmingly to make regime change in Iraq official US policy?? Of course, to protect the lie they all new was coming and were complicit in!!
I'm done swimming in the shallow end of the pool, kiddies, if nothing else, this thread proves how incoherent the arguments from the left are on the War. Thanks for the amusement, all, especially our own little Patrick with analysis straight from bikini bottom... |
| Newo |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 07:43:21
quote:
Dallas
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
576 Posts
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 07:42:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newo, your arent even trying. You obviously have no idea in what year the pic was taken or when Chemical Ali did his work for Saddam.
Excellent, you sound like you´re in a position to enlighten me as to the date Saddam changed from being worthy of political office and international gladhands to being a masspoisoning ogre. (For what it´s worth, seems to me he always was, but if you know something I don´t, hit me amigo)
--
If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
| starmekitten |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 22:02:25
Fistly, not the entire world was convinced that there were WMD's. Just because our prime-minister is a spineless little rent boy doesn't mean this country agreed with the way things occur, and I do believe for the large part we didn't. And I know mostly the rest of europe had it's reservations also. In fact, I think we were all rail-roaded into this war because the US left very little choice.
I know here the rationale behind going to war changed on an almost weekly basis, WMD's (unfounded), Terrorist links (unfounded) and eventually landed on the most palatable which was the end of a vile dictatorship regime. Which should have been done eons ago, or first time round really. This didn't sit as truth either but is the back up position as Dallas so sweetly pointed out, it's hard to arugue against. No one in their right mind advocates the sort of behaviour he describes.
So, seeing as you guys have started this whole 'end of dictatorship and nasty regime' thing who is next? I take it now the whole policemen of the "free" world thing has started it's not going to end at the muslim countries? this would be terribly hypocritical after all.
Saddam was a nasty man to put it in the mildest possible terms, a girl I know her friend fled Iraq with some of her family as a youth. Her grandparents couldn't flee and had to stay behind. At the time of the war Saddam took over the radio and the TV and told them all that these WMD's the foreign soldiers were looking for DID exist and he'd buried them under their houses while they slept so as soon as the bombing started, they were dead. If he had to go, he said, you're all going too. We know he was nasty, no one would refute that.
Out of interest (seriously! I'm asking!) why is it I only ever see the phrase "you on the left" I never see 'us on the left' reffering to you guys as "you on the right"? Especially in discussions like this it comes out, like rather than debate an individual (which would mean taking time to get their viewpoint) you'd rather debate a whole and general grouping which may not contain all of the views of the individual you are talking to?
you
me
we used to be on fire |
| El Barto |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 20:40:49
More reading for you, Dallas, reenforcing my first statement:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/01/14/media_choices/index.html
I guess I just wasn't made for these times. |
| El Barto |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 19:44:15
Dallas, you can argue semantics all you want, but you're ignoring the subject. They lied, plain and simple. You can continue living your life in the typical "denial" fashion of the right, or you can jog your memory and hear it straight from the horse's mouth:
"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."
–George W. Bush, Radio Address, Oct. 5, 2002
"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."
-Dick Cheney August 26, 2002
"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."
-George W. Bush September 12, 2002
"If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world."
-Ari Fleischer December 2, 2002
"We know for a fact that there are weapons there."
-Ari Fleischer January 9, 2003
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
-George Bush March 18, 2003
"Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly . . . all this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes."
-Ari Fleisher March 21, 2003
"There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. As this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them."
-Gen. Tommy Franks March 22, 2003
"I have no doubt we're going to find big stores of weapons of mass destruction."
-Kenneth Adelman, Defense Policy Board , March 23, 2003
"One of our top objectives is to find and destroy the WMD. There are a number of sites."
-Pentagon Spokeswoman Victoria Clark March 22, 2003
"They may have had time to destroy them, and I don't know the answer."
-Donald Rumsfeld May 27, 2003
"U.S. officials never expected that "we were going to open garages and find" weapons of mass destruction."
-Condoleeza Rice May 12, 2003
"For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on."
-Paul Wolfowitz May 28, 2003
Before
"We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."
-Donald Rumsfeld March 30, 2003
After
"I never believed that we'd just tumble over weapons of mass destruction in that country."
-Donald Rumsfeld May 4, 2003
I guess I just wasn't made for these times. |
| BLT |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 19:33:27
quote:
Originally posted by KimStanleyRobinson
He said some shit like "the protesters have allied themselves with the terrorists, with Saddam Hussein, with Osama Bin Laden..."
He was talking about people that were there to protest the inaugural party.
"...the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." --Hermann Goering |
| KimStanleyRobinson |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 15:21:49
I heard some asshat on the radio the other day - a member of a pro bush group that was having trouble getting demonstration space on the sidewalk for the inaugural parade.
He said some shit like "the protesters have allied themselves with the terrorists, with Saddam Hussein, with Osama Bin Laden..."
He was talking about people that were there to protest the inaugural party.
Some of Dallas's statements ring of this same sentiment; that if you do not support the president and everything he is then you have allied yourself with the "turrisss."
Right.
Fear.
Lovely, tasty fear.
Fear gives you power doesn't it?
Like a kid in an afterchool fight. |
| Broken Face |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 14:08:57
no Dallas, history has already proved that Bush was wrong - my only hope for the world is peace and prosperity and he has fucked us over on both accounts. how dare you accuse me of being pro-terrorism. this is the typical red state attitude - you wouldn't know terrorism if i smacked you in the face, but someone who used to be able to see the twin towers from his home town makes an anti-bush statement and suddenly i'm charlie terrorism. grow up and get a clue
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
|
| Dallas |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 09:15:30
Again, the heart of the left gets exposed.
So Broken Face you have concocted a position for yourself that has you rooting against freedom and democracy. You are rooting for the terrorists to win in the middle east so that history will show that GWB was wrong. Nice.
|
| Broken Face |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 09:00:12
i can't wait for the history books to prove you totally and utterly wrong so generations and generations can see how terrible of a president Bush has been and how stupid were the people who elected him in TWICE
i do not understand how people can justify this war - it has been faught on false pretenses, it has done NOTHING - it has made a country 10x more unstable, there were no WMDs, the "new" government is a joke (if it ever gets off the ground).
look, was saddam a bad guy? of course. should he have been removed from power? possibly, but certainly not the way we did it. is it a good thing that he can't kill any more people? yes, but others are doing his job for him now. just like how if we capture osama bin laden, the killing will continue, because his followers do not need him to give them every tiny strategic move.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
|
| Dallas |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 08:12:25
COF - again you are in over your head. Regime change for Iraq has been a congressionally approved US policy since the Clinton admnistration. Bush was not even involved in the debate. You remember it quite well huh? Just not what decade it took place in?
I totally understand why you would abandon the debate, given your grasp of facts like the one outlined above.
As far as WMD's go, what do you want me to say? They arent there. The entire world was convinced they were. Saddam either got them out or he was playing a shell game all along. A gamble that provided the international community with another reason to take him out. The pre-invasion intelligence was wrong based on all evidence available. |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 08:05:37
No, I'm saying that this was the initial reason given to the international community and when it largely didn't wash, a month or so before the final security council vote, THEN it became about regime change. Which, as I said, I remember quite well.
You say I have to stick to arguing about WMDs, I say you can't stick to it because the position is weak. And rather than defend on one topic, you switch to a different one to form a counter attack before the legs of whatever high horse you were previously standing on kick out.
I'm done attempting to talk with you. If my head's in the sand, yours is up your ass. I guess that's why Bush's bullshit doesn't stink to you.
 "Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
| Broken Face |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 08:02:14
you're right dallas - the other reason given for the invasion was the iraq involvement in 9/11, which is also total bullshit.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
|
| Dallas |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 07:52:54
COF - sorry, but you are in way over your head. WMD was the only reason? That is either a implicit lie or you have been burying your head in the same pile of sand el barto does. There were a host of reasons to liberate the Iraqi's. They were all laid out there in public. Are you willing to stand by the statement that WMD was the "ONLY" reason given for invading Iraq? Why do you have to concoct a false argument here? You dont recall all of the speeches about the 'brutal dictator' before the invasion? The Iraqi's who testified before Congress and the UN about the brutality didnt exist?
Again, you have to cling to WMD's alone because your position is unsustainable. Ethnic exterminators are bad, liberation is good. Your position argues the opposite. Sad really.
Saddam is a sovereign leader, he must be protected. Really, what an incredible humanitarian stance. |
| Dallas |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 07:42:21
Newo, your arent even trying. You obviously have no idea in what year the pic was taken or when Chemical Ali did his work for Saddam.
You 'believe'? How about you would 'like to believe'... |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 07:41:10
Listen Dallas, you have to choose. Are we talking about WMD which, like it or not, was the initial and ONLY reason that was given (at least, all we heard about) for the invasion, or are we talking about yet another oh-so-successful-US-meddling-in-regime-changes. Canada was appalled at the concept of going in for regime change and I remember the early days when Bush first admitted to it to Chretien, because we didn't buy into the WMD thing.
As for Saddam - you put him there. Further, if this was about preventing genocide, then the US (and indeed the UN, including Canada) should have stepped in years and years ago when it was actually happening. Nobody has brought up nor defended Saddam until now, when you did, only to deflect the topic from the black eye delivered by the whole WMD hoax which, sorry buddy, you're late to the party, is old news and not surprising in the least.
You want to talk Saddam, we can do that. I think you'll even find that you & I agree a lot more on that than on this. But this thread is about WMD and your governments deception to its people and the rest of the world. If you choose to believe that your government is filled with idiotic clods and they made an "honest mistake" in ignoring and fabricating intelligence, so be it. I know by now that there is no convincing you that anyone in the republican party could ever do anything underhanded that would involve more than one person. But can you at least consider the possibility that there is enough evidence to suggest that someone might believe you were lied to?
PS, yes, I do support raping, pillaging, and genocide, thanks for asking. This is why I don't actually hate the US, however much you may think I do.
Yeah, I can do cheap shots too, but what does it accomplish other than demonstrating my own childishness/bullheadedness? Please try discussing things like an adult instead of the internet equivalent of spitting in my face.
quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
COF you have missed the point entirely. I am not holding out hope or suspicion that WMD's are there. Your not paying attention at all.
I always supported the war from the humanitarian/state sponsor of terror view. If its still in the archives of htis forum that can be proven easily.
This quote from you is nonsense:
"Dallas, does it REALLY matter to you even if there's not a single person in the world who could prove that there were NO WMD? Does someone saying that going to war on something that hasn't been satisfactorily proven and is all hearsay and rhetoric and fabricated not make the same point? Or is it now OK to invade a sovereign nation against international law on the basis of this same garbage that was being held up as fact by the Bush regime and its followers?"
Saddam was a legitimate leader of a legitimate government? And the US is the outlaw. Do you see the corner you have painted yourself into? How many hundreds of thousands of people need to be found in mass graves in Iraq before you stop defending Saddam and his henchman? Saddam's government was an oppressive despot who supported terrorism. Proven that he was supporting Abu Abbas and Abu Nidal (they were caught in Baghdad). Proven that he was making cash payments (with Francs no doubt) to the families of suicide bombers. Proven to be the biggest mass murderer of our generation. Yet, this is YOUR guy. Your leader of a sovereign nation that must be protected.
What are the Kurds in Iraq? What are the shiites in Iraq? Why should these peoples oppression be ignored? Because Saddam is the leader of a Sovereign nation? So he can kill, rape and mame whatever ethnicities he wishes? This is who you defend regardless of whatever mind games you play with yourself. You prefer Saddams death squads and oppression to a liberating force of Westerners.
You would likely condemn a man making $1/hr more than a women in the West but if Saddam wants to rape the daughters of his enemies or if his sons go to market and select a girl to rape, that is to be protected under your guise of sovereignty?
Nice ethos man.
You and your ilk are myopic on WMD's because it fuels your hate. You are willing to accept ethnic genocide, rape, oppression, fraud, burning oil fields, etc. as long as you can concoct a false indictment of the US. Again, nice ethos. You are all true humanitarians.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
| Newo |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 07:22:55
Would this classify as protection under guise of sovereignity? I believe his chemical attacks on his own people were known to be occurring daily at the very time these two were getting cosy.
--
If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
| vilainde |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 07:14:58
Hey hey... A "longest post ever" contest and no one told me? I'm in!
Denis
"I believe in your perfect face..." |
| Dallas |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 07:07:15
COF you have missed the point entirely. I am not holding out hope or suspicion that WMD's are there. Your not paying attention at all.
I always supported the war from the humanitarian/state sponsor of terror view. If its still in the archives of htis forum that can be proven easily.
This quote from you is nonsense:
"Dallas, does it REALLY matter to you even if there's not a single person in the world who could prove that there were NO WMD? Does someone saying that going to war on something that hasn't been satisfactorily proven and is all hearsay and rhetoric and fabricated not make the same point? Or is it now OK to invade a sovereign nation against international law on the basis of this same garbage that was being held up as fact by the Bush regime and its followers?"
Saddam was a legitimate leader of a legitimate government? And the US is the outlaw. Do you see the corner you have painted yourself into? How many hundreds of thousands of people need to be found in mass graves in Iraq before you stop defending Saddam and his henchman? Saddam's government was an oppressive despot who supported terrorism. Proven that he was supporting Abu Abbas and Abu Nidal (they were caught in Baghdad). Proven that he was making cash payments (with Francs no doubt) to the families of suicide bombers. Proven to be the biggest mass murderer of our generation. Yet, this is YOUR guy. Your leader of a sovereign nation that must be protected.
What are the Kurds in Iraq? What are the shiites in Iraq? Why should these peoples oppression be ignored? Because Saddam is the leader of a Sovereign nation? So he can kill, rape and mame whatever ethnicities he wishes? This is who you defend regardless of whatever mind games you play with yourself. You prefer Saddams death squads and oppression to a liberating force of Westerners.
You would likely condemn a man making $1/hr more than a women in the West but if Saddam wants to rape the daughters of his enemies or if his sons go to market and select a girl to rape, that is to be protected under your guise of sovereignty?
Nice ethos man.
You and your ilk are myopic on WMD's because it fuels your hate. You are willing to accept ethnic genocide, rape, oppression, fraud, burning oil fields, etc. as long as you can concoct a false indictment of the US. Again, nice ethos. You are all true humanitarians.
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| Scarla O |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 01:54:18
What Cult Of Frank says.
_________________________________________________
"What's your medicine today...what's your poison anyway?"
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| Broken Face |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 14:15:27
of COURSE the gov't only cared about deliverable WMD - since when do americans give a damn about anyone that doesn't have oil or pose an immediate threat? if it was really that important for the american government to stop the death of anyone besides americans, wouldn't we have gone to MANY other places first? like the sudan. or any other nation that is killing its people. the republican gov't is concerned with our own safety and that is IT. 35 million to aid the tsunami victims? it wasn't until a public outcry that Bush upped that to where it should be.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 13:52:47
Unless you can spell it out in references and facts, or pictures, this article is just opinion and worse still left-of-Dallas opinion and not something that will cause him to do any more thinking nor introflection than simply dismissing it.
Dallas, does it REALLY matter to you even if there's not a single person in the world who could prove that there were NO WMD? Does someone saying that going to war on something that hasn't been satisfactorily proven and is all hearsay and rhetoric and fabricated not make the same point? Or is it now OK to invade a sovereign nation against international law on the basis of this same garbage that was being held up as fact by the Bush regime and its followers?
The point to you shouldn't be that it was never proven conclusively that they don't exist, just that there was significant doubt that they did and thus it is, was, and has been a poor excuse to go to war when most of the world is wise to the real motivations even as you follow with blind faith.
Sometimes it is not possible to prove something (such as existence of WMD in ANY nation, Elvis, or a solution to anti-gravity) and the only thing a person can do is cast doubt or attempt to prove the corollary.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
| The King Of Karaoke |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 13:34:39
No, but I can lnk something you should maybe read closely with one eye, while looking in a mirror with the other.
Worker Bees and Soldier Ants: America’s Army of Fascism
Marching Boots of Mass Psychosis
01/13/05 "ICH" -- It is in times of fascism rising that armies of ignorance are once more resuscitated from the bowels of a society bordering on the edge of mass psychosis. The America at the dawn of the twenty-first century is no exception, for an army of fascism is being born inside its womb, its growing power in numbers and ideology granting freedom of action to immoral despots and juntas of warmongering greed addicts. Contrived through the mass manipulation of fear and hatred, xenophobia and ignorance, searing nationalism and blind theological faith, this army represents the greatest threat to the nation, and the world.
From all walks of life diluted brains and weak-minded individuals are answering the call of the beacon of fascism shining bright, from Atlantic to Pacific, from north to south, embracing its dastardly tentacles with the warm acceptance of comfort and submission. Millions of Americans are presently falling prey to a virulent haze gripping the United States, furthered and pursued by a small cabal of corporatist evildoers perched at the upper echelons of governance and power that seek to transform the nation into a black widow’s nest of fascism spiked with the venom of a militarized citizenry acquiescent to imperial hegemony.
Growing daily like a malignant tumor, still entranced by the devastating images of the new Pearl Harbor, which the corporatists in power did nothing to help stop and everything possible for it to succeed, this multitude cannot see in shades of gray nor in the prism of color. Instead, like living inside the television sets of the past, only black and white can they perceive, their antenna only receptive to the microwaves of good and bad, evil and good, friend or foe. Different shades of reality escape them just as much as the reality of what transpires around the world.
This army of fascism is the product of years of methodical ingraining of ignorance and indifference into society by those holding the reigns of power. It is the end result of the re-wired human brain preyed upon and feasted on by television and the corporations that control thought through it. Obedient to the monitor, blind to reality, the army now gathering life takes direct commands from the images, sounds and war cries emanated by television. Acting on instinct, and on the televised propaganda they are conditioned to obey and follow, the army now walking among us neither questions nor searches for answers, preferring to exult the fantasies of fiction over the embarrassments of truth, preferring to dwell in ignorance rather than being liberated by knowledge.
Like the drones they have been bred to be the army of fascism lines up one behind another, marching to the drums of warmongers and trumpets of false prophets exalting hatreds and fears and cries for death and destruction. This monolith lacking the precepts of analytical and logical thinking minds follows the lies and deceptions of governance and the propaganda of corporations, believing every word uttered or image manipulated, absorbing as truth blatant lies and incorporating into their own thought processes the vitriol-filled, hate-induced, xenophobic-spewing, gay-bashing, women-hating, Arab-scapegoating, jingoistic-packed diatribe that litters the airwaves and acts as a conduit for the further recruitment of grunts comprising the army of fascism.
Disguised as national dialogue, this propaganda, disseminated by the minions and lackeys of government and the corporate world, serves the purpose of unleashing inside the ignorant legions of sheep boiling magma of animalistic passion and emotion which, with further manipulation of psychology, erupts like a smoldering volcano, releasing throughout the nation toxic gases of hatred and fiery lava of violent thought.
Thus, the harvesting of ignorance, hate and fear – all molded by the same clay, none mutually exclusive of the others – by those in power produces an army of fascism whose blind thirst for Arab blood and rabid addiction for Muslim destruction fuse to engender in the Establishment the tools necessary to mutate the United States in the direction of fascism and despotic rule, while at the same time increasing their power and control over the same army which blindly follows without knowing and is easily herded to slaughter.
Conditioned War Culture, Dumbed-Down Education
Millions who today march proudly in the army of hate, fear and ignorance have, since birth, been conditioned to violence and indifference through the incessant bombardment by television of those images necessary to transform a once benign citizenry into a violent and militarized war culture, in the process succeeding in shaping apathetic creatures devoid of concern for their fellow man, now desensitized to death, destruction, suffering and ceaseless violence.
From cartoons laced with aggression and conflict to movies saturated with pyrotechnics and bullets to video games blurring the line between reality and fantasy to television shows romanticizing violence the human brain, from cradle to grave, and in a society as addicted to television watching as is America, loses all sense of shock and awe at the very real spectacle of human violence. Glamorized and white-washed, fantasy-riddled violence on television, movies and video games desensitizes the now conditioned human brain to the very real and horrific parameters of our species’ self-destructive ways, making violence accepted and indeed sought, for violent overtures to conflict resolution are all we have been trained to see, hear and believe in.
In the realm of fiction bombs explode yet the shrieks and the misery are never seen. Bullets whiz by yet their effects on human flesh are whitewashed. Missiles rain down from above yet severed limbs and decapitated heads do not exist. The destruction of cities, houses and lives is too inconvenient to cover in the plot. The suffering and the wretchedness of human violence upon its own kind never sees the light of day. Special effects form a cornucopia of digital mastery, glossing over death and maiming, blood and guts, becoming the fiction we see and the reality we fail to understand.
Audiences at home or in the theater fail to ever experience the reality of human violence, unable to feel the pain of injury, the concussions reverberating in air, rubble falling everywhere, explosions creating deafness, bullets penetrating flesh, the last moments of life, the entrails exposed or the limbs blown to bits. We never are confronted with the sounds of war, the smells of death, the taste of violence and the very real destruction wrought by America’s many instruments of human violence. Comfortably we sit in our couches or stadium seating, under cover of roof and air-conditioning, munching on popcorn and soda, all the while becoming ever more desensitized to death, destruction, violence and the horrors of war.
This makes a culture such as that found in America a purveyor of violent solutions to conflict, a populace indifferent to the violence, destruction and death created by its government and unleashed on the savages and inhuman peoples of lands not known or understood, alien to our reality but familiar to our fictions. With a citizenry completely conditioned to accept violence as a solution for conflict, with a people desensitized to the horrors of human violence inflicted on its fellow beings, with tens of millions brainwashed into seeing violence as rose-petalled fiction and not as a malicious reality, the government, military-industrial complex and the cabal of corruption in control of our lives are free to unearth the most wicked forms of human violence upon innocent human life, killing with abandon in a wanton slaughter applauded by a complicit army of fascism whose minds are completely under the control of warmongers and fascists in power.
When you add in the bogey man of the moment, the chosen Muslim Arab enemy for years implanted into our minds by government and corporate propaganda, seen in television, movies and the realm of fictionalized violence, replacing the Indian and the Soviet and the black and the Vietnamese as the enemy required to hijack the thoughts of the average American, needed to induce fear and enslave fogged minds, the brain begins associating negative feelings of hatred onto this scapegoated ethnic and religious group. Fear commences its powers of erosion, stripping rational and analytical thought from the human brain, replacing hatred and thirst for violence against the latest enemy to grace the collective imagination of Americans. Ignorance, fear of the unknown and conditioned fear of dark-skinned enemies combine to form a deadly cocktail of hatred, manipulated into the American mind by government and those whose interests lie in marginalizing Arabs, that furthers the recruitment of the army of fascism as well as the fictional “war on terror.”
Combined with the creation of a completely dumbed down, ignorant, believe-anything, nationalistic-driven, violence-conditioned, fiction-living, theology-brainwashed, fear-induced, schizophrenically-manipulated, paranoid-delusional segment of the American population, the recipe is ripe for those in power to sound the drums of perpetual war for perpetual profit, using their new and ever-growing army of fascism, blind to the tunes of reality, to unveil the erosion of civil rights, freedoms and democracy at home and the mass murder of untold thousands abroad in an immoral attempt at achieving imperial hegemony.
Using the ignorance of the army of fascism to its advantage, this cabal of corruption is giving birth to corporatism, transforming the nation into a conduit for despotic rule in a police-state environment, where the army of fascism is used against itself, for the attainment of a continued form of corporate feudalism, and as a tool in fighting the other half of the population that refuses to accept the master plans of those in control or to bow down to the dictates of tyranny.
An army dumbed down by an anemic educational system whose only purpose is the systematic transformation of little primates into obedient, non-thinking drones loyal to the government that exploits and the corporations that enslave them has become a reality which today we can see in the tens of millions, perhaps half the population of the United States, that gives a thumbs up to mass murder, torture, gulags and the destruction of an entire society by their vote for warmongers, greed addicts and power hungry corrupters of civilization.
Brainwashed from birth to adore the red, white and blue, trained to never question the authority of government or the decisions of politicians, conditioned in the fine arts of nationalistic propaganda, manipulated into loyalty to the state and deceived to the altruistic fictions of American history, children are subjected to an education designed to eradicate free-thinking minds, transforming questioning entities into subservient soldiers devoid of rebellion or resistance to bad governance. Educated to avoid seeking truth, taught to inhale as fact whatever the government states, children are methodically robbed of their natural desire to question the world around them, failing to seek accountability of authority and their innate desire for truth searching.
After years of dumbed down education, in schools that serve to hinder knowledge and evolving intelligence thanks to rotten curriculums and decrepit resources, children become the molded adult drones of the state, unthinking, unknowing and unquestioning. The mockery that is American education, purposefully instituted by those in power, spits out a populace that fails to grasp the world around them, lacking curiosity, creativity and an ounce of knowledge of history, current events, politics, foreign nations, the arts, science, culture, geography and common sense.
An assembly line of ignorance and indifference is created through years of abandon, both educational and parental, that is transforming American society into a culture lacking the precepts of human understanding. The wisdom of older societies is recklessly disregarded, the sophistication of cultures is frowned upon, the lessons of history are arrogantly trampled on, the convergence of diversity spawns fear and the advice of old friends is discarded. To the army of fascism, America does not need advice or assistance or friends or historical lessons. We are the greatest nation that ever lived, unable to do wrong, unable to condemn billions to misery and virtual enslavement, the chalice of altruism, the seeker of good, the defender of freedom, the protector of democracy and the Almighty’s chosen nation. America is an unbeatable superpower, emanating arrogance and cockiness, the most triumphant society that ever existed, free to do with the world and its peoples whatever suits its needs. Unfortunately, after years of brainwashing, the army of fascism believes just about anything, unwilling to even contemplate the minimal idea that all they have ever learned is false, based on propaganda and conditioning of minds, blitzkrieged into their brains for the benefit of the state and the corporate world that owns it.
The army of fascism chooses to live in fantasy, unwilling to discard their tiny bubble protecting them from confronting reality. To them truth is stressful, reality is frightful, ignorance is bliss, and escaping the illusion they watch on Fox News or any other corporate propaganda channel is an exercise they would rather not confront. Their bubble is their paradise, no matter how pathetically delusional it may seem, no matter how obviously false it appears and no matter how much it is eroded by the plethora of truth attacking the fables and fictions sustaining their delicate web of concocted bull manure.
To the tens of millions living inside the rabbit hole, Earth, its lands, nations, cultures and peoples are as alien as the vast expanse of universe, science and nature as hazy as history and knowledge. The reality of what the United States has been since its inception, an Evil Empire laying waste to billions of world citizens and their lives, is never taught to the very citizens now affected by the blowback inherent in perpetuating human malice throughout the globe. Instead, we are told the world hates us for our freedoms and rights, that billions are angered at us because we are such a great nation. The truth, it seems, is always discarded for fiction, and the army of fascism gobbles it up like Thanksgiving turkey, forever wanting to escape knowing painful truths by smearing themselves in euphoric falsity.
Hijacked Fiction, Hypnotized Minds
As if hypnotized by the thunderous sound of its marching boots, the army of fascism, millions of worker bees and soldier ants laboriously furthering the interests of state fascism, surrenders itself to its masters sounding the trumpets of fear and hatred. Ever since 9/11, millions of Americans have experienced a profound shift in their psyche, becoming, over time and thanks to ceaseless corporatist manipulation and propaganda, the mirror image of what they perceive their enemy to be.
They have become, in a sense, what they most fear, the nighttime bogeyman lurking in dark corners and black shadows, emulating the behaviors and psychology of how they are told the enemy behaves, casting a long dry spell of hatred and racism over the lands of America, awakening from horrible nightmares to find themselves afflicted by paranoia and schizophrenia, possessed by hatred and seething anger, unable to listen or see, made deaf and blind to reality and unable to exorcise from their minds the horrible disfigurement to the national character spawned by the ghosts of 9/11. They have, for all intents and purposes, become the enemy they fear most.
It is exactly the manipulation of fear and hatred by those who control, spawned by 9/11 and its post traumatic stresses that has elevated the numbers joining the army of fascism. A plague presently afflicts the United States, born in sin and broken psychology, rendering once capable minds as weak as rotting wood, impregnating in the ignorant among us deep hatreds and angers giving rise to increased levels of xenophobia and a growing search for scapegoats.
The fear prevalent in the army of fascism, tirelessly manipulated and exploited by the Bush administration, birthed by the horrors of 9/11 and the correspondent images no human society has ever had to experience, played live and replayed countless times via multiple camera angels and narrated through various media outlets and personalities, immediately bombarded by anti-Arab propaganda by the corporate media, has given rise to a racist hatred seldom seen in the United States in the latter decades of the twentieth century.
It was 9/11, that sparkplug from which all hatred now derives, that spawned the beginning stages of the army of fascism. It was in the aftermath of the collapse of the twin towers in New York City that the early manifestations of mass change in the minds of vast portions of the populations could be seen. Suddenly, as if hit by a powerful surge of psychosis, millions of Americans became conduits of seething anger, no doubt affected by high doses of post traumatic stress disorder and of feelings of catastrophe, uncertainty and bewilderment.
The world Americans had once known changed in the rapid transgressions of a few horrific hours, popping long-lasting bubbles of invincibility and security that had for years insulated the populace from the carnage, fear and human wickedness that befell the rest of humanity, most of it at the hands of America and its vast legions of mercenaries of imperial control and domination. The new Pearl Harbor had been allowed to come into fruition, for it was the tool needed to mobilize a pacifist populace into war, introducing the fog of mass psychosis onto a suddenly fearful nation, in the greatest psychological warfare operation ever conducted, on the way to neocon and military-industrial complex pre-planned mastery of world hegemony. Along with falling towers, the fall of American rationality and analytical thought was not far behind.
Implanted into the minds of now fragile human brains, the violence witnessed and conditioned into our psyches by endless videotaped repetition and immediate talking head jingoistic tirades was no longer relegated to the giant screens or the television monitors or the video games. It no longer lived in third world countries or was monopolized exclusively by dark-skinned peoples. Violence was suddenly scary real, a shocking energy of carnage, death and destruction imported to once safe shores, crumbling the fabric of a society’s entire psychology. This was not a movie, nor the work of special effects capturing the latest digital technology for our viewing pleasure. This was no longer the fiction we had for too long enjoyed along with popcorn and soda and stadium seating.
Soon, through vast media/government propaganda, manipulation and conditioning, the collective wrath of an entire nation was thrust upon the people’s and lands of the Middle East, for a convenient enemy allowing for pre-planned wars of pillage and conquest had already been chosen. Muslims, long marginalized in movies and the media, became the newest bogey man to grace the long line of chosen American enemies. It was their lands and valuably needed resources, the geo-strategic location of their homes, their global position on the way to imperial hegemony, their threat to Israel that condemned millions of Afghans and Iraqis, and perhaps soon Iranians and Syrians, to the full might of American military evil.
Through careful propaganda, then, the American people were blitzkrieged with the seeds of hatred and ignorance, fed a vast assortment of misrepresentations and lies that linger to this day. Weapons of mass deception were introduced via the airwaves and into televisions and radios, designed to plant the foundations and pretexts for embarking on wars of aggression. With the public in the collective grip of those in power, fragile, fearful, ignorant, insecure, paranoid and schizophrenic, bowing down to the power of our animal instincts, desperately needing feelings of protection and security, ready to accept whatever lie was placed at our knees, enraged at an enemy we were told hated us for our freedoms, suffering from the effects of massive post traumatic stress disorder and willing to place our trust and futures on those we have since birth been brainwashed to obey and follow, the project for a new American century could commence.
A nebula of fear gripped the nation, thoroughly exploited by the right wing, government, media and the military-industrial complex, suddenly transforming a man of questionable courage and apparent mediocrity, with no discernable leadership skills, possessing not an ounce of morals, into a Dear Leader of unquestioned character, strength and leadership. The puppet of the corporatist world had, in the time it takes to read ‘My Pet Goat,’ become an appointed conduit of the Almighty, an heir to greatness, on the way to perpetual war, and perpetual profit and wealth, lest we forget. The questioning of the President and of government was discouraged and threatened. After all, we were either with the President or with the ‘terrorists.’ Dissent was quashed, protest was made extinct, discourse was nonexistent and debate was nowhere to be found. The myth of the Dear Leader firmly entrenched thanks to massive Rovian propaganda campaigns, his re-selection by both the vote of the army of fascism and the corruption of elections was a foregone conclusion.
In time the healing began, and with it returned the rational and analytical thinking minds of hundreds of millions of Americans. As time passed most of the nation began to escape the clouds of 9/11, awakening to the lies and the deceits and the many manipulations that pushed a nation to war, in a sense returning to normalcy and exorcising the demons of lingering stresses and fears. The realization emerged in the minds of millions that pre-emptive wars had been based on nothing but lies, all now proven to be false, all destroyed by reality and rational thought.
Slowly, the fictional war on terror is being discovered for what it is, a charade, a fear-engendering escapade, created to control and command, to breed power and profit, a mirage whose tentacles are used as tools in the pursuit of conquest of land, people and resources. Used like the Cold War, birthing fear into the populace through the use of fantasy bogey men lurking in the shadows, said ready to kill for our freedoms and ready to attack for our way of life, the war on terror is a control mechanism, a way to lead a nation in a certain and most ignoble direction, based on lies and manipulations, needing a concocted enemy to thrive, misdirecting the attention and energy of the people away from real internal problems, away from what is being done to them at home and in their name abroad.
The creation of a few charlatans and messianic Machiavellis in power, the ‘war on terror’ was concocted to consolidate power at home through the erosion of civil liberties, freedoms and democracy and to expand the empire’s hegemony abroad through ruthless devastation and destruction of both land and man, exploiting and oppressing peoples whose homes the Empire needs to continue the global chess match called geopolitical maneuvering. The ‘war on terror’ is a useless game that selected as enemy a most ambiguous entity, unlike the Soviet threat, without borders or faces or uniforms, allowing for its fictions to continue lingering into perpetuity, making the American people acquiescent slaves firmly controlled by fear and insecurity, their rights and freedoms evaporating more each day. It has selected over a billion people as enemies when only a few thousand exist, allowing the military-energy-industrial complex unfettered profit and wealth through war, conquest, ceaseless production, pillage and the robbery of American treasure.
The ‘war on terror’ is one more fiction created by those at the top to retain power, distracting and dividing the nation away from the rape of their ways of life, allowing a warmongering corporatist government the means to expand its power, making 300 million people fight themselves instead of the real enemy at the top, even as their lives are placed in ever more danger thanks to a self-defeating, unwinnable and perpetual conflict. Thankfully, more and more citizens of America are waking up to the façade that is the ‘war on terror,’ joining the rest of humanity in seeing that a corrupt few have exploited the honorable many.
Dangers Real and Perceived
Yet, for about forty percent of the population, the ‘war on terror’ is as real as night and day, a most important war against the hated Arab heathens who share neither religion nor culture nor skin color with noble America. To the army of fascism, Arabs are evildoers extraordinaire, savages and primitives intent on killing all of what America stands for. They are barbarians, a people worshipping false gods and idols, mere subhuman animals willing to kill themselves, the army of Satan and reincarnations of demons past. They are an enemy that must be defeated and exterminated, whatever the cost, whatever the consequences. This belief by the army of fascism, however, is one based on ignorance, the belief of fantasy and a sheer weak-minded capacity to distinguish fact from fiction. When bombarded by a Zionist-first media and scapegoat-needing government, using a massive and methodical propaganda campaign, though, the Fox News and talk radio addicted army of fascism easily succumbs to such manipulations and lies.
While most Americans have recovered their senses in the years after 9/11, the army of fascism still remains trapped inside the clouds of asbestos and debris and smoke and dust, refusing to take the hand of truth and reality, firmly digging themselves inside the trenches of a horror-filled fantasy. Because they wish for its truth, they make it so, retaining the lies and deceits and manipulations they hear, never questioning for an instant the validity of such claim and never seeking their own education of such matters. Trained to always believe what they hear, they incorporate deceptive propaganda as their own, every day hating and fearing more and more, scapegoating an entire culture, religion and race, justifying their hatred and growing racism through the bull manure they hear and see on a daily basis.
The army of fascism remains deeply distraught by the horrors of 9/11, still possessed by its demons and its stresses, unable to exorcise the memories or ghosts of an operation allowed to succeed by the same heroes the army now religiously follows. Their outward bravado hides a deep inner fear, acting as their protective surrogate, for traumatized they remain and brainwashed they have been made to be. Psychologically fragile and mentally intimidated, they cling to the Dear Leader their monitors and radios command them to adore as a father figure in whom they seek protection and security. These millions are not able discern the falsity of the war on terror, nor the reality of what their ‘leader’ truly is, nor the true nature of the wars of conquest against Afghanistan and Iraq.
To the army of fascism, lies become truth just as much as reality becomes falsity. In their inescapable bubble, they see not how the world is but how they want the world to be, refusing to accept truth even as it showers them with unending facts and even as it utterly destroys the fictions they cannot let go of. These Americans remain traumatized and haunted by 9/11, clouding the rational and analytical thought processes they might have once possessed. Every hate and racist filled tirade by their favorite talking head vermin only validates in their minds the necessity to wage ceaseless war upon innocent Arabs and Muslims. Every diatribe they hear confirms their belief in the elimination and mass murder of hundreds of thousands of humans, replacing the goodness they once had with the thirst for malice that now runs through their veins.
They have become cold-blooded manifestations of their Dear Leader, the embodiment of all the psychopathic traits he possesses. They are the exact image of the President of the United States, indifferent, uncultured, unwise, callous, complicit, without love for their fellow human beings. Warm hearts have given way to frozen arteries, their desire to do harm to chosen scapegoats running rampant inside their bodies. They hate because they are told to hate, they wish death and destruction because they follow propaganda, never questioning anything but dissent. They fear because they are ignorant, they do not understand alien ways of life because they know nothing beyond their tiny bubbles, wishing instead to remain captives to the producer and consumer lifestyle they have been conditioned to follow.
They desperately cling to the beliefs that Arabs and Muslims are sub-human creatures and evildoers needing the salvation only America can provide. To them, America is bringing democracy and freedom to those it now occupies, and the noble intentions of the Bush administration are all that matters. The army of fascism refuses to see that tyranny was replaced by tyranny, that corruption has now been increased, that democracy is but a sham excuse to enslave and pillage, that an entire civilization lays in ruins and that 25 million people have had their lives shattered, that their tax dollars are being pilfered by corporate greed, that their sons and daughters are dying for nothing but the profit, wealth and power of the elite, that their rights and freedoms are being eliminated not by Arabs but by the leaders they shower with praise and adulation.
Millions of Americans are being transformed into conduits of hate and racism, citizens thirsting for Arab and Muslim blood and for the destruction of millions of lives. More and more we hear them talk about using nuclear bombs and WMDs to destroy Arabs. We hear them talk about curtailing Arab and Muslim civil rights and liberties in America, with cries of sending an entire race of people to internment and detention camps. We hear them validate war crimes and the death of over 100,000 innocent civilians, extolling the virtues of shooting and bombing Iraqis and Afghans to pieces. To these warmongers and violence seekers, the more Arab blood spilled the better.
To them torture under Saddam is horrific but under the red, white and blue, not to mention under the Star of David, it is encouraged and acceptable, no matter how sadistic and malevolent it becomes, no matter how much it contradicts basic foundations of humanity. Two dozen beheadings are condemned as barbaric yet the use of cluster bombs, missiles, napalm, bunker busters and 2,000 pound bombs that kill thousands and maim and decapitate countless more is seen as a civilized and necessary way to bring freedom and democracy to those we invade and occupy. To the army of fascism, an amalgam of Bush gulags is welcomed, and if death, torture and dehumanization results, so much the better. From Guantanamo, Cuba to Abu Ghraib, to prisons in Iraq, Jordan, Israel and Afghanistan, the army of fascism revels in the imprisonment of innocents and the torture of humans, wishing the keys to cages be thrown away for all eternity. The prisoners are Arab and Muslim, after all.
They approve destroying cities such as Fallujah, Najaf, Mosul and Sadr City in order to save them. Under no circumstances can they ever see the quagmire that is Iraq for what it is, nor the mistakes that have led to disaster and inevitable defeat. The army of fascism sees no problem appointing as Attorney General the man responsible for legalizing torture and endangering American soldiers. They feel comfortable keeping as Secretaries CEOs and executives of the corporate world that fleeces their lives. They look forward to a State Department run by a liar, conniver and unscrupulous cobra responsible for the death of over 100,000 innocent civilians. Ignorantly they allow the dangerous Likud-first neocons to remain pestering like flies in the halls of the White House and War and States Departments, hijacking foreign policy to the tunes of Israel’s delight. They rush to the polls to cast votes for the worst president in the history of the nation, having accomplished nothing but problems for the electorate since stealing the election of 2000, yet providing a treasure trove of favors to the corporate world.
Our Own Worst Enemies
The parameters of life in America were altered in one giant implosion of two towering monoliths, and the resulting psychosis which has ensued has only progressed further down the slope of the surreal. To America’s worker bees and soldier ants, hatred of Muslims and blatant racism of Arabs, combined with searing nationalism and growing ignorance of reality and the world, are fusing together to form a malicious combination of behaviors and psychology that is following a clear pattern of growth that, ever since 9/11, has multiplied in aggression.
Today, America is fast approaching a slippery slope of hatred, with xenophobia and homophobia at the frontlines, threatening to divide the nation and explode the fiery cauldron of diversity, creating a nation on the verge of implosion. Hate now fills the air, racism lingers in the environment, and, with ignorance the sparkplug of this most frightful engine, a new dawn fast approaches, pitting those blinded by hate, fear, ignorance and the clouds of 9/11 against those now free of demons, ghosts and inner turmoil.
Lines are being drawn in the sand, and slowly, yet surely, America is being divided based on the wars of George W. Bush. Hatred, fear, racism, fantasy, blind patriotism and corrosive ignorance stand on one side with the army of fascism. On the other side stands reality, courage, peace, love, diversity, world citizenship and education. The real danger is being played out today, with the army of fascism reporting dissent to the Department of Fatherland Insecurity, thereby placing anti-war voices on “terrorist watch lists,” with protest being confined to “free-speech zones,” with Republican politicians seeking to curtail still more rights, with right-wing Congressmen seeking to define dissent a psychological disease, with the army of fascism acting as national spies, keeping tabs on those not in tune with pro-war, pro-America, pro-Bush dictates.
This army is growing as the mass lunacy that has taken over America continues its reign of terror, invading minds and possessing spirits, catapulting inner turmoil and invasive demons onto the national stage. The army of fascism comprises your neighbors, friends and relatives, your co-workers, elected representatives and teachers. Hijacked by the psychosis of post-9/11, this army knows not what it does, doing the dirty work of the elite and warmongers who are unleashing devastation upon the green lands of Earth. They are captured by the fear exploited every day by those in power, exchanging once held sanity for evolving hatred and brewing racism.
The danger lies in another violent attack upon the nation, whether real or concocted, for the army of fascism will undoubtedly wage war against Arab and Muslim Americans, against those seeking peace, tolerance and justice, and against those not espousing the beliefs of the fascists in government. Another bombing or unconventional attack will result in the complete assault of civil rights, freedoms and habeas corpus, resulting in the complete fascist overhaul of American society, the introduction of a police state and the implementation of repression and subjugation of large segments of the population, no doubt abetted by the growing legions of the army of fascism.
Resurrected from the catacombs of lunacy and human wickedness past, mutating to the dictates of malice and corruption present, becoming the oxygen by which tyrants thrive, the voices by which hate prospers and the muscle by which the worst in the human condition grows, the army of fascism, birthed by brainwashed conditioning and bred in ignorance, unwillingly serves the masters who have created it, becoming its own worst enemy, the force that will self implode upon the evisceration of the freedoms, rights and democracy it took for granted.
Soon, when the forces of corporatism no longer need the army that so blindly follows, the awakening of millions will arrive too late, and from the long slumber of post 9/11 hysteria millions of minds will realize the self-implosion they wrought onto themselves, wishing they had only known, wishing they had been wiser to the propaganda, wishing to wake from the horrible nightmare now confronting their lives. Until then, however, they are helping lead us all directly into the wretched path of despotism of old and fascism of new, pulverizing our relations with the outside world and making extinct the life we once knew to exist.
Worker bees and soldier ants are condemning us all, for their numbers are many, possibly reaching half the citizenry, helping to keep in power the most unscrupulous cabal of human refuse to ever stand perched atop the halls of power. The world entire will have to suffer for the post 9/11 traumatic stress disorder affecting tens of millions of Americans who cannot escape the demons of crashing planes and falling towers, played and replayed countless times on video, in dreams and in the mind, that can now be seen as the sparkplug that launched America into a realm of lunacy, paranoia and incalculable human wickedness.
As the evolution and continued growth of the army of fascism persists, the decline of what America once espoused continues. We are becoming, in the end, our own worst enemies.
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 "I am not a plonker". |
| Dallas |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 12:52:42
You will suffice KOK, can you link to a pre-invasion post? |
| The King Of Karaoke |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 12:50:58
quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
Show me on person, from the left, that said before the war that there were NO WMD's in Iraq. Duh.
Who is this 'we' you are talking about. Just spewing garbage doesnt make it true. Duh.
Yes, yes, nobody will read this. It takes a super-sleuth to pull a link from a WIRE REPORT. Which gets printed in damn-near every newspaper in the WORLD. Thanks for the spreading this underground information!
God bless this thread, proving without a doubt that one can post revisionist drivel with faulty intelligence.
How about me? Oh yeah, I'm from the middle.
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"I am not a plonker". |
| Dallas |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 12:39:43
Here is my quote: "Show me on person, from the left, that said before the war that there were NO WMD's in Iraq. Duh."
Here is Kucinich:
" Nor is there any credible evidence that Iraq possesses deliverable weapons of mass destruction, or that it intends to deliver them against the United States."
He doesnt say there are no WMD's in Iraq. He parses his words. Do you think the word 'deliverable' is there by accident? No, it is the description of the WMD's he is concerned about.
2 points that go against your assertion. 1, If he thought that there were no WMD's he would have said so in the article. He did not. #2, he actually confirms the existence of WMD's with the line "or that it intends to deliver them against the United States". Obviously, if Kucinich was claiming that there were ZERO WMD's that last line is nonsensical.
Kucinich is a politician and as such chooses his words carefully. There is a reason he doesnt simply say "Saddam (or Iraq) does not possess WMD's". Close, but no cigar B-Face. |
| Broken Face |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 12:11:23
you asked for one person from the left, which i gave you without even trying. just concede the fact that there were people who believed there were no WMDs - if you don't admit that then you just look like someone who can't admit when they're wrong
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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