| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Broken Face |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 13:01:55
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story?id=6066617&pageid=rs.Home&pageregion=single1
Clear Channel Limits Live CDs
[photo of FB with the Caption "Frank Black Blocked?"
Company to block bands from selling instant albums
In the past few years, fans leaving some concerts have discovered a souvenir far better than a T-shirt: a live recording of the show they just attended. Bands including the Allman Brothers, moe. and Billy Idol have sold instant concert discs, and the Pixies and the Doors plan to launch similar programs this summer. The recording-and-burning company DiscLive estimated on April 12th that it would gross $500,000 selling live discs this spring alone.
But in a move expected to severely limit the industry, Clear Channel Entertainment has bought the patent from the technology's inventors and now claims to own the exclusive right to sell concert CDs after shows. The company, which is the biggest concert promoter in the world, says the patent covers its 130 venues along with every other venue in the country.
"We want to be artist-friendly," says Steve Simon, a Clear Channel executive vice president and the director of Instant Live. "But it is a business, and it's not going to be 'we have the patent, now everybody can use it for free.'"
Artists net about ten dollars for every twenty- to twenty-five-dollar concert CD that's sold, no matter which company they use. But with Clear Channel pushing to eliminate competition, many fear there will be less money and fewer opportunities to sell live discs. "It's one more step toward massive control and consolidation of Clear Channel's corporate agenda," says String Cheese Incident manager Mike Luba, who feuded with Clear Channel last year after promoters blocked the band from using CD-burning equipment.
The Pixies, who are booking a fall reunion tour with several probable Clear Channel venues, say Clear Channel has already told them DiscLive can't burn and sell CDs on-site. "Presuming Clear Channel's service and product are of equal quality, it may be best to feed the dragon rather than draw swords," says Pixies manager Ken Goes. "Still, I'm not fond of doing business with my arm twisted behind my back."
Clear Channel doesn't plan to stop Phish, Pearl Jam, the Who or other bands that make live recordings available days after the show. It has also granted one-dollar licenses to a few up-and-coming bands to record and sell instant CDs of their own shows. But Clear Channel executives maintain that they have the right to stop anyone who tries to infringe on the patent. Many say this strategy prevents inventors from jumping into a marketplace and creating further innovation. "We'd like to see this industry opened up to everybody," says Erik Stubblebine, founder and vice president of Hyburn, a Phoenix company that has sold instant CDs for dozens of concerts in the past three years. "They're trying to squeeze us."
STEVE KNOPPER
(Posted May 24, 2004)
-brian
 - "I joined the Cult of Frank / And they tried to cut off my nuts and make me put on a blue jumpsuit"
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| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Daisy Girl |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 16:06:56
Jake,
I think it says a lot about the way Disc Live does business. Clearly, from my consumer standpoint and from my past business experience and given the information you just posted, Clear Channel hits below the belt. Keep up the good fight!
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| JakeWalker |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 06:47:06
Contrary to what has been indicated, DiscLive HAS NOT sold any intellectual property to Clear Channel. To our knowledge, Clear Channel acquired the widely publicized patent from a Texas lawyer, who we believe never actually implemented a system described in that patent. In fact, we have no confirmation that the patent has ever been used in a commercial setting.
We have recently issued a press release, available at http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/040526/58268.html which explains our position on Clear Channel's recently acquired patent. In short, we have concluded the patent is not relevant to the DiscLive implementation, and DiscLive will continue with business as usual.
Jake Walker
CTO/Co-Founder, DiscLive |
| Daisy Girl |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 20:18:17
Thanks Dave for the email update. That was cool!
This is cool news...the battle I am suprised that it happened so quickly and am wondering if DL and CC have been talking about this for awhile. Now the real war is seeing if DL or any other company has the right to record at Clear Channel venues. This will be intersting.
Also...to Solace's point earlier... I have only worked at two TV stations that were "independant" and this is pretty much because they were in the middle of nowhere... "independant" media is hard to find...if you are boycotting Clear Channel, you might as boycott everyone else. The only exceptions are PBS and Public Radio and check it out on a case by case basis. They are independant but even Public TV/Radio depends on government funds. |
| Mroocore |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 20:29:58
quote:
Originally posted by solace
quote:
Originally posted by Mroocore
cc owns about forty TV stations in America. fox, nbc, abc, cbs, pax, upn, wb, and independent stations no network is left clear. all across the country from sea to shining sea.
part of your post is correct, but CC does not own ANY of those stations above. if you want i can break it down for you, i already did but fb.net ate my post and i didn't feel like typing it out for another 5-10 minutes.
here's the short version:
FOX = owned by Rupert Murdoch
NBC = owned 80% by GE (also CNBC, MSNBC (partnered w/ Microsoft, Bravo, etc.) and 20% by Vivendi Universal Entertainment
ABC = owned by Disney (who owns ESPN as well)
CBS = owned by Viacom (also own MTV, VH1, Nick, BET, etc.)
PAX = owned by Paxson Communications (which NBC has a big stake in)
UPN = owned by Viacom
WB = owned by Time Warner (who also own CNN, TNT, Cartoon, and just about everything else in the media world related to Music, Movies, Magzine or Cable TV)
you are right cc does not own any of those networks. they own stations that are network affiliates to all of the mentioned networks.
complete list of cc owned TV stations http://www.clearchannel.com/Television/tel_stations.aspx
i recently read that they are about to purchase a large east coast media conglomerate that includes 7 TV stations and a group of dailey papers.
 PENGU LIES |
| The New Bolero |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 17:25:10
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Well, I for one will not purchase a ClearChannel live disc, Pixies or no.
 "When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?"
Good. Me either. I don't listen to their shitty radio stations and won't buy their cds either.
Seems like a good time to relate a funny thing that happened to me last fall. I had one of those old Casey Kasem American Top 40 countdown record from 1975, where he "counts down the hits"--the actual three-record set that went out to djs to play on the air. Anyhow, I paid two bucks for it fifteen years ago at a used record store in Arizona and having long ago tired of its novelty factor, I listed it on Ebay. I was awfully surprised at the going rate for the records (70 bucks) as people apparently pay lots and lots for these things. But after a few days the auction was yanked off Ebay at Clear Channel's request. I also got an email from someone at Cheap Channel who explained that I somehow posed a threat to their intellectual property rights, seeing that they owned the rights to all the American Top 40 shows through 1979 and that I better make sure I never try anything like that again, lest they have my Ebay account yanked for good. I was astounded by their we-get-the-seventy-bucks-or-nobody-gets-the-seventy-bucks attitude. |
| solace |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 17:18:26
quote:
Originally posted by Mroocore
cc owns about forty TV stations in America. fox, nbc, abc, cbs, pax, upn, wb, and independent stations no network is left clear. all across the country from sea to shining sea.
part of your post is correct, but CC does not own ANY of those stations above. if you want i can break it down for you, i already did but fb.net ate my post and i didn't feel like typing it out for another 5-10 minutes.
here's the short version:
FOX = owned by Rupert Murdoch
NBC = owned 80% by GE (also CNBC, MSNBC (partnered w/ Microsoft, Bravo, etc.) and 20% by Vivendi Universal Entertainment
ABC = owned by Disney (who owns ESPN as well)
CBS = owned by Viacom (also own MTV, VH1, Nick, BET, etc.)
PAX = owned by Paxson Communications (which NBC has a big stake in)
UPN = owned by Viacom
WB = owned by Time Warner (who also own CNN, TNT, Cartoon, and just about everything else in the media world related to Music, Movies, Magzine or Cable TV) |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 15:59:36
That's great to see. Go DiscLive!!
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
| Ziggy |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 15:34:01
That is very encouraging!
"Me and the chickens running in the street" |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 15:29:05
heh..maybe we'll allow CC links..haha
Here's a clear article on this:
http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/040526/58268.html
Looks like Disclive is gonna be standing up for themselves, awesome!
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| benji |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 13:42:11
so does this mean that links for downloading CC Pixies discs will not be deleted from the forum?
 "I joined the Cult of Frank / I think that man deserves a DB!" |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 13:23:34
Well, I for one will not purchase a ClearChannel live disc, Pixies or no.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 13:22:03
Poor disclive. This sucks ass!!!
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
| Mroocore |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 11:40:23
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
I sit here in awe of their ability to corner almost every angle of the music market. Thank god the T-shirt is in the public domain.
if it only was that bad.
cc owns about forty TV stations in America. fox, nbc, abc, cbs, pax, upn, wb, and independent stations no network is left clear. all across the country from sea to shining sea.
cc also has friends in high places. ceo l. lowry mays is an old friend of bush family. his cc bio can be seen here http://www.clearchannel.com/Corporate/bios/MaysLLowry.pdf
micheal powell, son of sec. of state colin l. powell, is chairman of the fcc. we all know that bushes and powells are thick as thieves.
music, which we all love, in the end is just entertainment and cc will never be able to stop me from making it. 40 or so TV stations however that control the mass consumed news in their area is a different story. many people rely on and believe in what they see on the nightly news. cc controls that all over America, like i said, from sea to shining sea.
i find cc to be offensive and absolutely frightening.
PENGU LIES |
| kingphilbert |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 11:24:49
Getting on this one a little late... Man that f'n sucks. Now if they (CC) will not stop acts like Pearl Jam and Phish, who do not sell theirs at or after the show, couldn't Disclive go in, record and sell the vouchers and mail them out a week later. That way we still get Disclive service and a Disclive diss to match the rest. Or does this mean that Clear Channel will record and sell us the show? I was really looking forward to getting my Philly show on disc. I hate Clear Chennel.
In other news like this, eMusic has started up a service that they record shows at small clubs, you buy a small USB flash drive for $20 and then go to a kiosk at the end of every shows and download the show for $10. The USB drive is yours and reusable. They have started it at Maxwell's in Hoboken, NJ.
"I mix twinkie's and ding-dong's all the time. In Europe, they call it a Dinkie!" |
| corey |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 10:31:04
Sounds like disc live could record the shows just could not instantly release them. If they mail them to everybody they should avoid the problem? Even in the venues they control which is most of them.
Also disc live would not have the money to take on evil clear channel in court. |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 09:17:54
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
What i don't understand is why the folks at Disclive sold-out...?? They were clearly sitting on a GOLDMINE. Fools.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer!
I don't think that DiscLive was the holder of those patents. Which I went over and are so vague that they NEVER should've been issued.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
| vilainde |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 09:01:30
Where's mereubu when we need her? Anyway, here's where the CC jerks need to be sent:
No lube!
Denis
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| BLT |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 08:17:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
What i don't understand is why the folks at Disclive sold-out...?? They were clearly sitting on a GOLDMINE. Fools.
Dave, after reading the article it doesn't sound to me like DiscLive sold out. I get the impression they are being forced out by CC: Clear Channel has already told them DiscLive can't burn and sell CDs on-site...
I sit here in awe of their ability to corner almost every angle of the music market. Thank god the T-shirt is in the public domain. |
| Dave Noisy |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 23:28:50
What i don't understand is why the folks at Disclive sold-out...?? They were clearly sitting on a GOLDMINE. Fools.
CORRECTION: i was under the mistaken impression Disclive sold their patents, that's not the case.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
| PsychicTwin |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 13:01:16
Daisy Girl...nice sleuthing!
I'm actually part of a newsgroup called AMS (arlington music scene) which is for musicians here in the DC/Northern VA area. This topic has come up today, and someone I am acquainted with (he plays bass in a band called The Florenteens) had some insight on the matter because he's worked as a paralegal in some capacity. His message is copied below:
"There are certainly multiple complex issues here. I'm
in no position to try to break them all down.
However, as a former patent litigation paralegal, I
will offer the following (caution, I am merely
expressing opinions based on some *general* experience
with patent law...this should *not* be construed as
*advice*:
There are several types of patents -- I have not read
the patent at issue, and cannot speak to it's
validity. However, the article makes it read as if
the patent is not a technology patent, but a business
method patent. That is, the patented "technology" is
the idea of selling immediate CDs to concertgoers of a
just-finished show prior to even leaving the venue.
If so, their patent would not even encompass what
Phish, The Who, and Pearl Jam do, and CC wouldn't even
have to power to stop it.
However, if this is, in fact, what the patent reads
on, then they WOULD have the power to stop any other
venue from offering the same, unless those venues sign
a licensing agreement with CC.
Now, I suspect that this patent has never been
challenged in court. If it's a patent on the physical
techonology it takes to make such CDs, it would seem
to me that such technology was in existence and
publicly available prior to the filing of the patent,
and that this patent could be found either invalidated
by prior art, or otherwise unenforceable by a court of
law.
After all, anyone who's played the VL for ages could
leave there with a recording of the show that was paid
for, but by the band, not by fans. Still it is a
commercialized CD sold of a just-completed gig by the
venue.
Before CC purchased the patent, there was probably
little reason to challenge the patent, because the
original owner wasn't seeking to force others to
license his technology. But I think now, that will
change, particularly once CC starts threatening
artists with keeping them out of CC venues unless they
agree to work with them on the recordings.
Their time will come....their time will come...most
likely in a major antitrust lawsuit...
-Dave M"
This is an interesting issue. Personally, I would love nothing more than CC (a.k.a. Clearly Cocksuckers) to bite the dust. But that is easier said than done, obviously!
________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
| Daisy Girl |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 12:36:31
This is not intended to be legal advise as I am not an attorney. This is just to comment on some current events using some business experience I have. If you are making business decisions on this issue, I suggest you seek the coucil of a patent attorney.
Ok here are some more links that provide more background.
This is a link to the patnent... be sure to click on the "images" link below once you get there.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=6,614,729,&OS=6,614,729,&RS=6,614,729,
Here is an article I found that was better written and more trustworthy Than Rolling Stone. As a former journalist I wouldn't trust a music reporter to give me business advice or a business reporter to give me music advise. This one seems more objective...I am sure there are more on Google too.
http://216.87.176.52/wwwboard_world/messages/11024.html
XXXXX
Ok...the patnent is for a "System and method of creating digital recordings of live performances." So basically if you can read their patent and look at how they did it and change the process, you should be cool. I am not a sound engineer, but this clearly can be done.
Pretty much, I think this patent is bs. What they came up doesn't sound that original or unique and should be easy to get around. What has happened in my industry, which is different from the music industry, is that sometimes companies create patents to create entry barriers to limit competition. This means that they know and you know the patent is bs. but that company is just trying stall to make it hard for other people to do similar things becasue they know it will cost lots of money to challenge it. In my industry, companies have ignored patents and what happens is they have to pay that company fair value of what profits they lost. So if you are Joe blow and using a system exactly like CC, and you sell 5 CDS for $5 each you might have to pay them back $25.
As Cult of Frank Pointed out that the biggest challange to musicians selling live disks is likely to be the fact that these recordings will be "exclusive" at Clear Channel Events. As he pointed out this could get into antitrust issues. You are correct in the anology of Microsoft. The CC. patent is akin to Microsoft Word. Microsoft can't stop people from developing a word processing program, but it can't have many of the same features, such as the icons in the tool bar or perhaps even the same pull-down menus. In addtion the size of Microsoft makes it hard for any new companies wanting to enter the word-processing market because they don't have to an exclusive operating system or other suite of software products.
However, this is a complete guess but what I think is that CC or any venue owner has the power to negotiate/control onsite vendors. I bet that the only way that the courts would find this to be inviolation of any antitrust laws was to prove that Clear Channel has a monopoly on local venues. The interesting twist could also be who owns the rights to the music being preformed? Is it the musicans who create and preform it or the owners of the venue it is recorded??? Although this is a stretch, imagine such a case would go to district or possibly the Supreme Court and would take years to settle.
The other crappy thing in terms of the Pixies is that their hands might be tied to get the DL at their events because challenging such a patent could take months or longer. On the other hand...the Pixies could just go ahead and do it if the process is different from that outlined in the Patent and then have CC take the legal action...but seeking legal council is the best way to go before taking action or no action.
In my non-legal opinion, I could see this going either way. So this is the biggest barrier to anyone preforming at any of the s 130 Clear Channel venues. I guess then the question is who needs who more? Can the musicians effectively boycott Clear Channel venues and promotions or do the musicians need CC for its venues, airplay and promotions more? Also, there is power in numbers, so if the bands formed a anti-clear channel movement, then would this be effective in pressuring CC to back down?
The Thing, you made a good point about the UK. The cool thing that makes European patents different is that they have to be filed before the product appears is launched anywhere in the world. This is a common slip-up US companies make when launching products globally. I searched this database for European patents: http://gb.espacenet.com/ and didn't find evidance that there are European patents, but this doesn't mean they don't exist.
Also, there is also one thing for you to think about. This is a risky strategy seeing how Napster users were prosecuted by recording companies, but if you are in a band and want to sell your disks after the show...what are the chances they will go after you, especially if you have a different recording process than CC.
Hope this non-legal patent experience helps with understanding this issue! |
| Steak n Sabre |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 12:16:47
That's the first time I've seen Mr. Goes referred to as Pixies Manager...
And, yes, adverts for the Milwaukee show this fall had Clear Channel and Budweiser logos featured...Uck!
The Cult of Frank: Vorsprung Durch Technik |
| TheCroutonFuton |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 09:45:44
I think Charles should eat them and then send his poop on a one way trip to the sun. Grr.
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 08:00:12
Yeah, I looked at it again, it says something about '130' patents, which makes it sound like they just blanketed all conceivable (to them) ways of going about the process... which is bad news.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
| benji |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 07:46:49
does anyone else think that it's actually most likely that the Rolling Stone journalist just wrote an inaccurate article?
"I joined the Cult of Frank / I think that man deserves a DB!" |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 07:35:13
Exactly what I was wondering, Daisy... how can they claim to own the idea? I'm fairly certain that DiscLive's process is their own and they custom developed their rig. About all Clear Channel can do in my mind is prevent people from using competitors' live recording technologies at their venues. I suppose they could also 'block' artists who use their competitors from ever playing venues, but hopefully the anti-trust lawyers would have something to say about that?
Of course, the difference between Clear Channel & Microsoft is that CC is a media giant and government is always weak and squeamish about such challenges in election season. But this sort of monopolistic arm twisting cannot be allowed to continue.
I don't see why FB or the Pixies should care what CC has to say or if they were to be blocked. CC has done ZERO to support either band in any way, no radio play, no exposure, nothing. Oh, so you want a cut of the million dollar pie that is the result of the Pixies reunion live CDs? Then you should've been in the damn kitchen when they were making it.
Draw swords.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
| woodworm |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 07:23:34
clear channel will last until we stop "feeding the dragon"
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| PsychicTwin |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 05:59:57
Clear Channel...I'd love to kill everyone one of those fuckers, and mail their eyeballs to their fucking mothers.
But really now. What they apparently have patented (as someone pointed out before) is the technology USED to make the instant discs after the show. They can't possibly claim reign over the rights to simply SELL A CD AFTER THE SHOW. it's ridiculous for them to even assume that...plus highly arrogant, and oppressive to everyone involved in the music business as an artist or promoter. If this even got taken to court, I don't see a chance in hell that the judicial system would back up such a ludicrous claim. Clear Channel is apparently trying to take over the whole world, someone needs to start a grassroots-type campaign to overthrow these dickheads (yeah, good luck) or at the very least lessen their attempt to control every facet of the music business.
Here is my suggestion-- everyone who is in a band, start selling live CDs after your shows (if budget and equipment permits)...that way, while Clear Channel is pathetically trying to police the "big boys" (like the Pixies or Sring Cheese Incident), we indie-type bands can slowly fuck them in the ass with our dissent!! It'll be beautiful!! WHO'S FUCKING WHO NOW, YOU VAMPIRES??!! (;
________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
| the thing |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 01:24:08
From what I hear Clear Channel are waaaaaaaaaaaaay to powerful in the US - and becoming more so over here in the UK. If they decide they can patent Disclive (and I think you can patent a process - I don't think it applies just to technology)regardless of who's done it before they probably will.
Between them Clear Channel/Disney et al make Bill Gates look like a cuddly puppy...
My head was feeling scared, but my heart was feeling free |
| solace |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 21:55:00
Daisy, yeah, we shall see
thing is, Joseph Arthur has been selling cd's of his shows right after they finished for at least the last 3-4 years, he was the first i've known that was doing it. sounds like he should be suing someone as well :)
but i wouldn't put anything past CC, it will be interesting to see how this unfolds.
thankfully the MN shows are not produced by CC |
| CaptainMaximus |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 16:15:31
Yet another example of how ClearChannel are truly shit-sucking whores of babylon. First they ban Howard Stern in Florida because of their close ties to the Bush family, and now they takr a mercenary approach by monopolizing this great technology, not only robbing fans but swindling artists, in TicketBastard-like fashion. I steer away from anything related to ClearChannel, and if any of the concerts I planned on attanding are somehow associated with them, I won't be going. Not that they care... |
| Daisy Girl |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 16:11:51
Actally... it seems as Clear Channel is full of bs. What a suprise. Basically there is no way that CC. could patent this idea. You can patent a PROCESS or a technology... not a concept of selling a CD of a show right after the show. Anyone could invent a similar but different process/technology to do the same job and easily get around this. Any musician/music label or inventor could easily challenge this...I doubt it would even go to court.
Unless this reporter grossly simplified exactly what CC has a patent on or simply got the facts wrong...which is a possibility CC is full of you know what.
|
| solace |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 13:55:39
i gotta be honest, i'd rather Frank and the rest of the Pixies stood by their laurels on this one, and any show that CC is not allowing DiscLive, or any 3rd party to do their own instant-live recording, just not record/release. i know it sucks, but i'd rather have them not succumb to CC/TM's stupid demands in this case than to have Pixies fans have to give even more $ to that fucking terrible monopoly.
can they just maybe do a remote feed to the DiscLive trucks, and have them set up shop near the venue, but not on venue grounds? to pick up the discs afterwards?
|
| billgoodman |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 13:32:53
cockknockers
 "I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf" |
| benji |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 13:23:13
man how fucking shit are Clear Channel.
i can't believe how evil they are.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / I think that man deserves a DB!" |
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