| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arm Arm Arm |
Posted - 12/08/2013 : 18:53:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V9xhGq8R1M |
| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| trobrianders |
Posted - 12/23/2013 : 13:33:39
Cheers Pete
I can tell you're a good guy about all this stuff. I was just ribbing you a little about the type of language it can be easy to fall into.
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
The VU knew they were probably gonna flame out early in their reunion, and that they had about an 18-month window to generate as much revenue as they could, partly motivated by the low incomes of both Moe Tucker and Sterling Morrison.
So they took the deal and ran.
One can't imagine any of the VU members talking about their affairs in these kind of terms. It's more the kind of launguage their lawyers/accountants or other 'industry commentators' might use. Fine to take a step away for objectivity's sake but not at the expense of a step's worth loss in understanding of a subject's perspective.
I'm no purist about taking the money. As you outlined it all depends on what's negotiated. I respect pragmatism. But I still wouldn't presume that it has to sting on some level for M or T to not have gotten more money out of the VU's legacy. No need for bitterness while they could still rationalize.
I really like what you said about VU members looking out for each other. Good to know Reed and Cale didn't get arrogant as sometimes happens. I saw Reed once, in the foyer of a grand venue. I didn't approach him, he was occupied. He looked like a punching bag, weathered by it all. It was at a Young Gods show I think. Lou Reed at a Young Gods gig, pretty cool! Oh one more thing, you're knowledgeable on this stuff. Any idea who was responsible for the incredible sound achieved on the re-recordings of "I'm Waiting for the Man", "Venus in Furs" and "Heroin", at T.T.G. Studios during a stay in Hollywood later in 1966? Was it Tom Wilson or John Cale maybe? For me that was the single greatest thing about the VU's recording life.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 20:11:36
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
Sorry Pete Rad. I wasn't very clear. My posts are usually tounge-in-cheek but played straight and sometimes cause confusion. You've never been offensive in any way. I was just pulling your leg, clumsily.
I've got a soft spot for Morrison (and Tucker). Morrison has a soft spot for their song Venus In Furs. I've heard him talk about it with near tears. I have no idea if Morrison was happy or upset at that song getting used in an ad. But I don't see why Morrison would jump for ad money just cos he only had a regular job. Most of us only have regular jobs, that doesn't mean we're ready to sell our children. You seemed to be saying Reed or Cale might have turned the offer down for artistic reasons cos they could afford to but M and T didn't have that luxury cos they were Joe Shmoes. Were you certain ot just guessing that M and T would jump at the money?
I license copyrighted material for my work and I know money isn't usually the primary concern for copyright holders. They want to know who wants their material and what they want to use it for. The money conversation comes later. I don't know if M and T are money grubbers but my experience says I should give them the benefit of the doubt.
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
Understood,trobrianders. Glad I have not rubbed you the wrong way on these boards!
Moe is as far from money-grubbing as one can imagine. I didn't know Sterl as well, but everything I've been told about him from folks who did know him would seem to imply he was laid back, down-to-earth, and not at all the type to dash for the cash.
That said, the simple truth is that both he and Moe were FAR less financially comfortable than John and Lou, and the VU was a band that TONS of people name-check all of the time, but who never really made ANY money from their music, despite being considered one of the most influential groups of all time.
To constantly have people writing about your enduring legacy and having all manner of financially well-off rock folks routinely going on and on about how incredible your art was and how they've taken so much of what you pioneered and integrated it into their hit records and successful careers HAS to sting on some level, no matter how easygoing and unpretentious one is.
What I was trying to get across was not that Lou and John would have probably turned down the tire ad for artistic reasons, because both of them at various times have licensed some of their own songs for various commercial interests. I think they were happy for the money and appreciative of the publicity that deal (and not just the ad, but the controversy the licensing itself generated in the music press) gave to their short-lived reunion.
It was a BIG shot in the arm that boosted their back catalog sales, thus helping all of the members' bottom lines.
My point (which I realize now I did not make clear), was the both Lou and John made a point throughout their post-VU lives to always try to help out Sterl and Moe whenever they could, because they knew that she and he were the two members of the band that for whatever reasons were never able to capitalize on the Velvets' legacy in any sort of way that added up to much money -- unlike Lou and John, who in one way or another rode that wave for the rest of their careers.
Generally speaking, if a deal came their way that would benefit Sterl and Moe in a substantial manner, they could usually be counted on to support such an offer, in part to help themselves, but in great part to throw some financial resources toward Moe and Sterl, who wouldn't really be in a position to turn such help down.
Let's not forget that while being a college English professor and a tug boat captain are both paid positions, that does not take into consideration all sorts of hidden variables such as family obligations, lingering debts, health issues, emergencies, etc... - all of which can add up quickly.
As far as I know, other than a couple of their songs turning up on movie soundtracks from time to time (which no one ever seems to have a problem with, despite that being the kissing cousin to turning up in a commercial), the VU never licensed any of their original recordings for any commercial interests other than that single tire ad, and if I remember correctly, that was some sort of tie-in with a free CD of their music which was distributed in some European music mag or newspaper to coincide with their reunion tour.
So, it was something like the tire company paid for those thousands of promotional CDs in exchange for about 30 seconds of the band's song being used in the background of a tire commercial for no apparent reason. I'd be willing to bet someone at that company was a VU nut.
Does this make it harmless to the band's image? No, which is why they were roundly thrashed by many in the rock intelligentsia for agreeing to it.
However, at the time of Sterl's death, I believe it was his wife or brother who was quoted as saying what they hoped people remembered most about Morrison was that, "He was never a hippie, and he never sold out."
So, that says something about how they viewed this particular decision, for whatever that's worth.
That's about all I can add.
:)
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| trobrianders |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 10:27:07
Sorry Pete Rad. I wasn't very clear. My posts are usually tounge-in-cheek but played straight and sometimes cause confusion. You've never been offensive in any way. I was just pulling your leg, clumsily.
I've got a soft spot for Morrison (and Tucker). Morrison has a soft spot for their song Venus In Furs. I've heard him talk about it with near tears. I have no idea if Morrison was happy or upset at that song getting used in an ad. But I don't see why Morrison would jump for ad money just cos he only had a regular job. Most of us only have regular jobs, that doesn't mean we're ready to sell our children. You seemed to be saying Reed or Cale might have turned the offer down for artistic reasons cos they could afford to but M and T didn't have that luxury cos they were Joe Shmoes. Were you certain ot just guessing that M and T would jump at the money?
I license copyrighted material for my work and I know money isn't usually the primary concern for copyright holders. They want to know who wants their material and what they want to use it for. The money conversation comes later. I don't know if M and T are money grubbers but my experience says I should give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 08:27:20
quote:
Originally posted by floop
I miss the innocent music wonderment of my youth, looking up to rock musicians as stars, imagining what kinds of cool lives they had
Now it's a bunch of disgruntled people on their computers with spread sheets of how little money everyone has
I agree, Floop. Those days are sadly gone, likely never to return.
However, even now, every time I hear THIS recording, it reminds me of how I used to feel when I was young and dazzled by the history and the mystery of rock and roll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDhhODd6RwA
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| floop |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 07:16:14
I miss the innocent music wonderment of my youth, looking up to rock musicians as stars, imagining what kinds of cool lives they had
Now it's a bunch of disgruntled people on their computers with spread sheets of how little money everyone has
 green star member since 2006. smb? |
| IBreed |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 07:07:05
in 2013, i can't see how anyone would care. there's not a lot of money in music and i want my artists financially stable enough to be able to do whatever they want. my concern was over the idea of the pixies supporting a political idea that would have negatively effected my view of their music.
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| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 06:51:44
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
Most normal people who do normal jobs like, erm, English professors or tugboat captains, manage to get through life without huge royalty checks. Doesn't automatically make them whores.
You must forgive me, trobrianders, but I don't understand what you're getting at...
Were you thinking that my mentioning Sterl and Moe's financial situation and the role it likely played in the VU's licensing their song for a tire commercial was a way of me calling them "whores?"
Or, were you casting that aspersion yourself, notwithstanding the information I had volunteered?
If it's the latter, I guess I politely disagree, but if it's the former, please know that I did not in any way intend for that to be the inference in my comments.
Personally, it bummed me out to see the VU's song used in that ad at the time, but I completely respect their right and decision to go that route, especially knowing a bit about a couple of the less prosperous members' financial situations.
Hope this makes sense.
:)
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| trobrianders |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 05:50:55
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
Sterl instead earned a meager living as both an English professor and as a tugboat captain.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
Most normal people who do normal jobs like, erm, English professors or tugboat captains, manage to get through life without huge royalty checks. Doesn't automatically make them whores.
PS sorry about that Chris
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 05:25:02
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
Take that back!
What do you mean?
It's true.
Moe and Sterl received virtually no publishing royalties on the entire VU back catalog (because almost every single VU song from that time period is credited to either Lou Reed alone, or to Lou and John Cale), and thus, live performances by the band (which simply did not exist between the period of around 1972 till 1993) and licensing fees from the original master recordings of songs they both appeared on were their main sources of personal revenue which came from the band's past work.
Sterl had basically never made any money off of music since the breakup of the VU. He only played in a couple of garage and cover bands for fun and to keep his guitar skills up, whereas Moe taught herself how to play guitar and carved out a tiny career as a singer-songwriter, making a handful of DIY records and fronting her own band for many years on several European club tours and sporadic sets of shows in tiny venues in the USA.
Sterl instead earned a meager living as both an English professor and as a tugboat captain.
Reed and Cale, however, made quite decent money from their long line of solo albums, through live touring, publishing and merchandise sales.
When it came to mechanical royalties for actual VU tracks that all four of them appeared on, however, their shares were roughly (and perhaps exactly) equal.
So, the licensing of "Venus In Furs" not only boosted both awareness of their reunion tour and back catalog sales of their early LPs, but it put a nice chunk of change into each of their pockets - something which had a substantially greater impact on Moe and Sterl's bank accounts than Lou's and John's.
Now, damn you, trobrianders! You've gone and ruined Chris Knight's perfectly great end to this thread...
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| trobrianders |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 05:03:14
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
the low incomes of both Moe Tucker and Sterling Morrison.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
Take that back!
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 04:20:13
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knight
All I know is, this cover isn't very good.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Thanks for that, Chris Knight.
If this thread ended right now, your post would be the most wonderful capper.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| Chris Knight |
Posted - 12/12/2013 : 23:26:19
All I know is, this cover isn't very good. |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/12/2013 : 18:00:59
Folks,
Advertising placement is the new terrestrial radio.
Has been for years now.
Internet streaming and Youtube views are the new satellite radio.
Some folks still reflexively refuse to license their music for ads while others do not, either because they never had a deep down problem with it, or because their eyes have opened to a new paradigm.
The VU knew they were probably gonna flame out early in their reunion, and that they had about an 18-month window to generate as much revenue as they could, partly motivated by the low incomes of both Moe Tucker and Sterling Morrison.
So they took the deal and ran.
Lou had long before gotten over any queasiness he might have had for seeing his songs used in commercials (Honda Scooters, anyone? And Let's not forget that MILES FUCKING DAVIS was part of the same early '80s scooter campaign that Lou got pilloried for allowing "Walk On The Wild Side" in, and even appeared ONSCREEN in the TV spot...).
Dylan shills for Victoria's Secret, Cadillac and Kohl's.
FBF's got many mouths to feed, and there's never been a contract with the fans to do anything in particular regarding ads, or not.
Know what I mean?
"You will get used to me. Welcome to your new joy, Heloise."
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| BunsenH |
Posted - 12/12/2013 : 16:50:23
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
quote:
Originally posted by floop
you guys want to overthink this any more? Frank also used his music in a vodka commercial and car commercial
as an aside, to me this type of piece feels beneath Errol Morris but I guess everyone has to work
green star member since 2006. smb?
The VU 2.0 gave Venus In Furs to ad agency Abbott Mead Vickers to sell us Dunlop Tyres in 1993. That hurt more than being asked to consider a mission statement from Unilever by BunsenH. It ain't disco, it's all just business for reformed bands unless Charles has a brighter idea?
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Ed is the hoo hoo
Wow. This is a weird fucking board. |
| trobrianders |
Posted - 12/12/2013 : 11:03:32
quote:
Originally posted by floop
you guys want to overthink this any more? Frank also used his music in a vodka commercial and car commercial
as an aside, to me this type of piece feels beneath Errol Morris but I guess everyone has to work
green star member since 2006. smb?
The VU 2.0 gave Venus In Furs to ad agency Abbott Mead Vickers to sell us Dunlop Tyres in 1993. That hurt more than being asked to consider a mission statement from Unilever by BunsenH. It ain't disco, it's all just business for reformed bands unless Charles has a brighter idea?
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
| Srisaket |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 21:34:47
quote:
Originally posted by Fissile
quote:
Originally posted by BunsenH
Fissile, you can read the company's vision statement here:
http://www.unilever.com/aboutus/introductiontounilever/ourmission/
To you Pro-life = Anti-Abortion. Surprise, there are other definitions of Pro-Life This video is pro-life. It's encouraging people to bring children into the world.
This is Unilever we are talking about here, a massive multinational conglomerate. If they are 'pro' anything it is big profits and shareholder dividends, same as all the others.
Nice bit of CSR bullshit in the mission statement as well |
| BLT |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 19:19:54
quote:
Originally posted by hammerhands
They want to feed children, to keep them from dying. You know, pro-life.
But what if this is against the mother's wishes? Like if the kid is a little prick. |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 15:26:54
quote:
Originally posted by hammerhands
They want to feed children, to keep them from dying. You know, pro-life.
hahahaha
Exactly.
It's a project to improve and maintain the quality of life for children worldwide, while attempting to do so in an environmentally and socially conscious manner, so that the entire process is (hopefully) sustainable over a long period of time.
Real contentious stuff.
And Floop -- point well taken about the booze and auto ads.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| hammerhands |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 13:41:05
They want to feed children, to keep them from dying. You know, pro-life. |
| BunsenH |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 12:32:28
quote:
Originally posted by Fissile
quote:
Originally posted by BunsenH
Fissile, you can read the company's vision statement here:
http://www.unilever.com/aboutus/introductiontounilever/ourmission/
To you Pro-life = Anti-Abortion. Surprise, there are other definitions of Pro-Life This video is pro-life. It's encouraging people to bring children into the world.
Hey man, I don't want to argue with you. I just think that calling the video "pro-life" is a stretch. On a *somewhat* related note, the company also strives to improve womens health and has received awards from womens rights groups. |
| floop |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 10:05:02
you guys want to overthink this any more? Frank also used his music in a vodka commercial and car commercial
as an aside, to me this type of piece feels beneath Errol Morris but I guess everyone has to work
green star member since 2006. smb? |
| Fissile |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 09:57:34
quote:
Originally posted by BunsenH
Fissile, you can read the company's vision statement here:
http://www.unilever.com/aboutus/introductiontounilever/ourmission/
To you Pro-life = Anti-Abortion. Surprise, there are other definitions of Pro-Life This video is pro-life. It's encouraging people to bring children into the world. |
| IBreed |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 09:57:28
i get how it could be perceived that way. i thought it was going to be focused on pro-choice/pro-life arguments, so i'm happy it wasn't that. |
| hammerhands |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 09:15:41
Yeah, it takes a special kind of mind to see things that aren't there.
When that happens you need to understand why.
I see machinations. I've never understood why effort would be
wasted on me. I can't seem to make myself small enough.
It's very hard to determine how much of that is real. |
| BunsenH |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 08:54:01
Fissile, you can read the company's vision statement here:
http://www.unilever.com/aboutus/introductiontounilever/ourmission/ |
| BunsenH |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 08:46:59
quote:
Originally posted by Fissile
quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
what? pixies supporting "pro life" campaigns? i'm curious but i almost don't want to know.
Why bring a child into this world?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL-207QGzN0
Right. Where is the "pro-life" argument? |
| Fissile |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 08:14:14
quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
what? pixies supporting "pro life" campaigns? i'm curious but i almost don't want to know.
Why bring a child into this world?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL-207QGzN0 |
| BunsenH |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 08:13:27
quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
what? pixies supporting "pro life" campaigns? i'm curious but i almost don't want to know.
Huh? Are we talking about the same charity here? |
| IBreed |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 07:48:11
what? pixies supporting "pro life" campaigns? i'm curious but i almost don't want to know. |
| Fissile |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 07:01:35
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
For example, I honestly think there's a good chance you may be an absolutely insufferable person to be in a room with.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
Maybe. I'm the kind of dude, who when he walks into a room and smells flowers, starts to look around for the casket.
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
I suppose I am suggesting that it would not surprise me in the least to know that even as admittedly a dysfunctional and communication-challenged group of people as the Pixies might routinely have ALL SORTS of casual conversations about ALL SORTS of things which pertain to their entwined public image.
To believe otherwise is to buy into a shallow, superficial view of the band and its interpersonal dynamic that is based on little other than a few handfuls of unflattering anecdotes over the years and rampant speculation which reduces the complex people involved into caricatures of their public personas.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
Look at what just recently happened. KD walked into a coffee shop and told them, "Well, bye." No warning. No discussion. No explanation. Nothing. A caricature of the band's interpersonal dynamics? This has been the pattern with them since the beginning.
A bit later Thompson is considering licensing one of HIS songs to a large corporation making a blatantly pro-life advertisement. Before he signs on the line that is dotted, he is going to touch base with KD to see what she thinks? A woman, who like her identical twin, has no children of her own. A woman whose life long attitude about having children is that motherhood is bullshit. A woman whose attitude is that she doesn't need any stinking men in her life telling her what to do. Obviously a woman who would be receptive to a video pushing a pro-life message. This is the woman Thompson sought out to give approval for such a project?
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| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 05:19:46
I honestly think a lot of things, Fissile.
Most of them I'll never be able to verify one way or another, and many of them are probably quite incorrect and/or shortsighted.
For example, I honestly think there's a good chance you may be an absolutely insufferable person to be in a room with.
In regards to the commercial licensing of Pixies material that he wrote and held copyright for, FBF told me once "They're my songs and I can do what I want with them."
So, yeah, I appreciate where you're coming from.
Then again, call me foolish (I think you kind of already have), but I think there is a quantitative difference between commercial usage of a song and its placement in a worldwide charitable campaign.
I also think that while people don't always HAVE to do something, they may sometimes CHOOSE to do that very thing, just because they can -- and because they might think at that particular moment it was the proper route to take.
I'm NOT suggesting that to NOT even canvass the positions of the other bandmembers regarding the use of this particular song in this particular campaign was NOT the right thing to do. That isn't my place or business.
I suppose I am suggesting that it would not surprise me in the least to know that even as admittedly a dysfunctional and communication-challenged group of people as the Pixies might routinely have ALL SORTS of casual conversations about ALL SORTS of things which pertain to their entwined public image.
To believe otherwise is to buy into a shallow, superficial view of the band and its interpersonal dynamic that is based on little other than a few handfuls of unflattering anecdotes over the years and rampant speculation which reduces the complex people involved into caricatures of their public personas.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| Fissile |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 04:17:01
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
That's a good point, Fissile, and technically quite true.
Then again, I find it hard to believe that when it comes to having one of "The Band's" most recognizable songs (albeit one legally composed by FBF - a fact that is lost on most people) used in a high-profile charity campaign to promote a politically-charged worldwide initiative towards sustainable living, that the group as a whole was not at least consulted on its placement.
But hey, who knows.
For what it's worth, it turns out the instrumental recording heard on the ad campaign is not this one, but another by a different pianist entirely, and the commercial itself was directed by my main man, Errol Morris.
Now hear dat. Naked Mole Rats in da house. Booyakasha!
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
You honestly believe he called Kim and said, "Hey, Kim, I'm gonna license some music I OWN to a large corporations for use in an advertisement. What do you think?" He didn't need her permission to do it, what makes you think he went looking for her blessing? |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/09/2013 : 17:25:39
That's a good point, Fissile, and technically quite true.
Then again, I find it hard to believe that when it comes to having one of "The Band's" most recognizable songs (albeit one legally composed by FBF - a fact that is lost on most people) used in a high-profile charity campaign to promote a politically-charged worldwide initiative towards sustainable living, that the group as a whole was not at least consulted on its placement.
But hey, who knows.
For what it's worth, it turns out the instrumental recording heard on the ad campaign is not this one, but another by a different pianist entirely, and the commercial itself was directed by my main man, Errol Morris.
Now hear dat. Naked Mole Rats in da house. Booyakasha!
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| Fissile |
Posted - 12/09/2013 : 16:09:13
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
I heard this a few weeks ago in the charity fundraising commercial it appears in, and thought it was quite lovely.
It was also very nice to see the band allow the use of their song in such a campaign.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
"The Band" doesn't have to agree to anything. The music belongs to Thompson. Only Thompson has to agree. On the other hand, if the original song were used as recorded, all would have to agree, unless they cut out the parts of certain members and got someone else to record the original deleted parts. The original version of Where is My Mind was used for Fight Club......the original song with all the original band members. In that case all four needed to sign off. |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 12/09/2013 : 05:29:11
I heard this a few weeks ago in the charity fundraising commercial it appears in, and thought it was quite lovely.
It was also very nice to see the band allow the use of their song in such a campaign.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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