| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| dslator |
Posted - 01/23/2005 : 02:42:45
The book Gigantic: The Story of Frank Black and the "Pixies" by John Mendelssohn is out now in the UK.
Has anyone read it yet ?
I've just ordered it from Amazon (the_book_depository) for £13.63 (inc P&P).  |
| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| frank black conspiracy |
Posted - 02/22/2005 : 03:48:55
and relatively speaking, Frank Black's a genius
I doubt FB would ever compare his own musical brilliance to that of Brian wilson, you just summed up his own genius Ice cream perfectly with surf's Up. But in the bigger picture, listening to todays sounds, Franks up there with the best and will go down as one of the greatest songwriters of my generation, and all time. but i'm biased.
Hmmm, a Brian and Frank collaboration. Now there's a thought. The 'there is a place' part of Man of Steel reminds me so much of Pet sounds.
Oh, and to quote Elvis Costello as genius and not Frank Black......click....bang! |
| IceCream |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 13:22:49
Maybe there are degrees of "genius"; someone could be more bewildering and incomprehensible to the majority than others.
For example, most people can never write an "I Want To Live on An Abstract Plain" or a "Places Named After Numbers". I don't know how Frank came up with such unusual methods of song structure. Most songs establish a solid chord progression for a verse, repeat that chord progression for a number of times, and then go on to a chorus or something. But in Frank's songs, the line is blurred between stereotypical "verses" and "choruses". There are no normal patterns within the verse. Frank's songs are all over the place. Firstly, I don't know HOW he got these ideas, and furthermore, the result is quite catchy and accesible; the weirdness does not hinder the quality of the song. Impressive.
But, to me, a much better example of true musical genius can be found in "Surf's Up" by Brian Wilson. The chords are very complex; I tried figuring it out once on the piano, and at no point was there ever a chord I could easily point out as a major or minor. And the bass often does its own thing, adding further to the complexity. The rhythm alone is complex enough, and the melody is certainly no walk in the park. And the structure* is far from simple. Yet, it does not come across the listener as math. Not only is it as catchy as anything else you'll ever hear, but it has a great deal of emotional reasonance. It can really give you goosebumps, provoke memories, and/or make you really FEEL something.
I'm just ranting. Sorry. I guess my point was that genius is a relative term.
 Join the Cult of Pi - It's just 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097.... |
| RustyPiss |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 10:56:41
This Jason speaks sense!
"I don't think Frank's music has ever been the origin of something new"
Big Pixies fan (burnt the book) but Stooges did much more for grunge then the pixies, let alone television, wire, X and et al. They made a great collection of songs but genius... |
| Jason |
Posted - 02/12/2005 : 10:41:34
quote:
Originally posted by Manny
quote:
Originally posted by Jason
If your music doesn't totally bewilder other great musicians, then, in opinion, you're just talented.
Check the interviews on the Gouge Documentary with David Bowie, Bono, PJ Harvey, Thom Yorke, and a dozen others musicians. I think you'll change your mind on that point.
You seem to have a very limited conception of genius. People tend to call genius any creative or prolific individual whose work is the origin of something new.
I've seen the DVD. Personally I don't get the feeling that Bowie, Bono, etc. are "bewildered" by the Pixies music (bewildered, to me = they can't figure out how to play it without great effort/difficulty, can't figure out how it was made. stuff like that.) Also I don't consider Bono, Thom Yorke, PJ Harvey, or Tim Wheeler to be brilliant or interesting musicians (which counts, since we're considering them peers of Frank). Just my opinion here.
Also I think the concept of "genius" should be limited. Every fan board thinks their guy is a genius. Which is fine and there's nothing wrong with any of that -- even though I don't buy into it and try to keep my own "fan" biases in check while in conversation. The John Mayer board thinks John Mayer's a genius. The Tori Amos board thinks she's a genius. The Frank Black board thinks he's a genius.
And futhermore, as much as I love it, I don't think Frank's music has ever been the origin of something new. I think it's been a popularizing factor. I do prefer the Pixies to their antecedents like Husker Du, Wire, and X, but I don't completely discount them and say the Pixies invented the idea of well-written melodic arty aggressive rock songs from scratch. |
| floop |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 13:54:28
i think the fact that Stay Away has the word "monkey" in it might be a stretch. but the song does have a somewhat Pixies feel to it (like much of his stuff)
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
| Manny |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 13:14:45
quote:
Originally posted by audiochild
I can only say, there is no way The Pixies were the band that made Nirvana. I think this myth has been around too long. Stooges, Mudhoney, Buzzcocks, Leadbelly... the list goes on. Sure Kurt might have used the , yes, here we go again, soft verse loud chorus forumula, but in all due respect there are many differences in their music.
One major differences is The Pixies were all creative professionals, Nirvana was Kurt. The Pixies is much richer and more textured. However, there really should be no comparison, should there? i think it's all been taken way out of perspective.
think about it a bit guys
You been NASHED!
Definitely agree with you about this. Pixies were just one element in the equation.
One Nirvana song that does seem to remind me of the Pixies though is Stay Away from Nevermind. The chorus and dynamics of the song remind me a lot of Tame. There's some monkey lyrics in there too. 
Can I ask you what NASHED means? Is it an inside joke with your friends? |
| Manny |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 12:28:14
quote:
Originally posted by Jason
I think genius and good rock music don't go together most of the time.
That presupposes some kind of genre hierarchy, or distinction between high/low art, which by now we all know is bogus ! |
| Manny |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 12:23:42
quote:
Originally posted by Jason
If your music doesn't totally bewilder other great musicians, then, in opinion, you're just talented.
Check the interviews on the Gouge Documentary with David Bowie, Bono, PJ Harvey, Thom Yorke, and a dozen others musicians. I think you'll change your mind on that point.
You seem to have a very limited conception of genius. People tend to call genius any creative or prolific individual whose work is the origin of something new.
|
| geertos |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 00:30:59
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
quote:
I believe it was Einstein who once said: Genius is 1 % inspiration and 99 % transpiration.
I remember hearing that it was Edison instead of Einstein, and "perspiration" instead of "transpiration."
I stand corrected. But at least I got the percentages right.
Anyway, I remember a quote from FB, back in 1990 or 91: "I'm not a genius but maybe I am". |
| VoVat |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 19:50:57
What if stuff just comes to you, and you write it down? That's not that much work, but people would still be aware of your genius, right?
"Reunion? Shit union!" |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 19:27:36
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
quote:
I believe it was Einstein who once said: Genius is 1 % inspiration and 99 % transpiration.
I remember hearing that it was Edison instead of Einstein, and "perspiration" instead of "transpiration." But these quotes get misattributed so much that it's often hard to tell who actually said something in the first place.
I think someone can be a genius without really doing any work. There isn't always a connection, and it's kind of unfair, because some people can be naturally good at something while others struggle to be mediocre at it.
"Reunion? Shit union!"
If a genius does know work, who would ever know they're a genius? And what have they done with their gifts?
Seems that such a person would be kind of stupid not to work at their gift and that would disqualify them from being a genius in the first place to me.
 "Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
| floop |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 16:39:03
fbc, no offense at all. no worries mate.
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
| VoVat |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 16:24:28
quote:
I believe it was Einstein who once said: Genius is 1 % inspiration and 99 % transpiration.
I remember hearing that it was Edison instead of Einstein, and "perspiration" instead of "transpiration." But these quotes get misattributed so much that it's often hard to tell who actually said something in the first place.
I think someone can be a genius without really doing any work. There isn't always a connection, and it's kind of unfair, because some people can be naturally good at something while others struggle to be mediocre at it.
"Reunion? Shit union!" |
| frank black conspiracy |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 12:13:30
Oh no, it's far from scary. More a comedy. A book about Frank Black (at last!) that does nothing but knock Frank Black.
It definately isn't a book for the fan, so why it's existance? Probably same reason for the Pixies tour. Now that's funny.
But if by any means you can get a copy and read, you'll enjoy and maybe find a few quotes you may have missed.
What i meant was just a carry on from hpm's comments about you wondering if you're in the book.
I obviously didn't know your input or contribution, so I just randomly picked two quotes I knew you would never say or believe.
the joke got lost somewhere across the pond and in translation.
Which I apology again for if you took offence. |
| floop |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 11:56:27
yeah, i was just kiddin'. i'm still not sure what you meant though, but i'm kind of slow sometimes..
i'm not in a bowling league by the way, but i wish i was.
judging by the quotes you've posted, i'm not sure how i'll feel about the book either, to be honest. i'm kind of scared to read it.
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
| frank black conspiracy |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 10:16:54
Hey floop, that post you've replied too, i hope you realise it was in jest.
I realise I don't know you enough to play around with words, as they can so easliy be misconstrued.
but having read some of the banter here i was hoping you and everyone would realise the fun intended.
Never at anybody's expense, especially yours.
Apologies for behaving too familiar.
Your input is probably the only fact and truth in the book.
He does seem cool. But his book sucked some (as an fb fan). |
| floop |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 10:03:35
quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
Wonder if this was Floops input:
"What's the first thing you do if you've gone solo, and want to make it as hard as possible for yourself to cash on on the reputation of the very successful band you've just broken up with a fax and a radio interview? If your charles Thompson, and seemingly have a compulsion for shooting yourself in the foot, you start calling yourself by a name your fans don't know. You mothball Black francis, that is, and adapt Frank black, a name better suited to the square-jawed fellow who supervises a crew of Latinos who remove asbestos from people's attics, belongs to two bowling leagues, and every night after work has a shot and a beer chaser."
Doubt it.
Maybe this...
"Frank Black & The Catholics, hereinafter The Orange Album...as fans would come to call it..."
Now i'm a little confused again.
Isn't self-titled FB the orange one and FB&TCs the yellow one? anyone?
I always went by the colour of the disc and/or front cover.
i gave john a tape of a Frank Black interview i recorded, to help him out. that was my only contribution. i still haven't read the book. but i still stand by my opinion that john seems like a cool person himeslf. reserving judgements on the book..
i am saddened that he chose to use the incorrect "orange album" to describe the first FB solo. it's not the first this mistake has been made though..
ps. i don't know what you're getting at suggesting that (above) that was my input.. i only belong to one bowling league
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
| Jason |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 09:33:24
I think genius and music can go together, but I think genius and good rock music don't go together most of the time. Like Yngwie Malmsteen is likely a guitar genius, but I don't think he makes good rock music.
To me, genius music would be music that is not only good, but also is completely beyond most other talented musicians of the time (and maybe later) when they try to play it or get their head around it. Maybe Captain Beefheart is a rock guy who might qualify for this. If your music doesn't totally bewilder other great musicians, then, in opinion, you're just talented.
One of my all-time favorites quotes about good pop/rock music comes from Frank in an interview a few months ago (http://www.suntimes.com/output/derogatis/sho-sunday-pixies07.html) where he explains the Pixies appeal by saying the Pixies "rang the bells" ("ringing the bells" I interpret as meaning creating a great pop moment) and he goes on to say "Musical geniuses ring the bells, and people that are complete idiots ring the bells". I love that quote, I think it couldn't be more true, and it articulates a big part of why I'm so hooked on rock music. |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 09:15:15
What did he know?
Love, love, my season |
| geertos |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 07:45:48
I believe it was Einstein who once said: Genius is 1 % inspiration and 99 % transpiration.
Now where does that leave Frank? |
| Homers_pet_monkey |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 06:30:00
Genius: instinctive and extraordinary imaginative, creative or inventive capacity.
I'd say Frank has that.
Love, love, my season |
| ElevatorLady |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 05:52:37
quote:
Originally posted by Jason
I don't think Frank's a genius. I'm not sure if I'd call anyone a genius for making rock/pop music.
To me, genius is "invented the light bulb" or "created modern physics" or "can solve insanely complicated math equations in their head in only 8 seconds". To me, genius isn't "wrote 'Debaser'".
Well Mozart is widely considered a genius, and he wrote a lot of what in his times was considered popular music.
I don't know if Frank Black is a genius, but I don't agree that if you invent things you can be called a genius and if you write music you can not. I think any kind of idea can be genial.
|
| frank black conspiracy |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 04:53:39
Hard-work does play a big part, I agree with that. Talent and luck too.
Like all inventors, they go through a stage of trial and error.
Forever modest to the end Mr. Wilson. Now if that's not a genius...whatever he thinks of himself. We know better. |
| geertos |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 02:49:06
quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
Brian Wilson too true a genius. I don't think anyone who knows anything could ever dispute that one.
Well, when asked, Mr Wilson himself always replies he's not a genius but just a "hard working guy". Gotta love him. |
| frank black conspiracy |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 02:29:12
I guess the word 'genius' is too easily thrown around, but when it refers to an exceptional intellectual or creative power, I don't think Frank can be left off the list. Maybe the word isn't as exclusive as we thought. Your examples are true genius, but I think this superlative can be spread across other fields and genres, especially music. Just measured in different extremes.
Someone who can write such songs and in such numbers, that's hard to do, and can't either be learnt or taught. You either have it, or you don't. I know I certainly haven't got it, and have been writing for years. Music too is invention. I agree with the light bulb, but can't agree about Frank. I do think Frank's a genius. |
| geertos |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 02:07:36
quote:
Originally posted by Jason
As for Mendellsohn's geniuses, they're all very talented and sometimes brilliant musicians (well, what little Ron Sexsmith I've heard sounded dull to me, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt), with Stevie Wonder probably being the most musically virtuostic of them.
To be fair, I don't think Mendellsohn called anybody a genius, he just mentioned some artists he enjoys better than FB. If anything, he seemed to be mocking the popular abuse of the word genius for anybody and his dog.
It is nice, however, to finally see some respect for Stevie Wonder over here. The man's a... well, not a genius, but close. Just check out e.g. "Saturn", a throwaway song on Songs in the Key of Life. Brilliant. And it should appeal to any FB-fan, given its space-related title. |
| Jason |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 01:14:33
I don't think Frank's a genius. I'm not sure if I'd call anyone a genius for making rock/pop music.
To me, genius is "invented the light bulb" or "created modern physics" or "can solve insanely complicated math equations in their head in only 8 seconds". To me, genius isn't "wrote 'Debaser'".
As for Mendellsohn's geniuses, they're all very talented and sometimes brilliant musicians (well, what little Ron Sexsmith I've heard sounded dull to me, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt), with Stevie Wonder probably being the most musically virtuostic of them. |
| jonathan |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 14:31:28
I bought the book - saw it in Virgin, and wondered *how bad can that be*. Didn't expect much...
Actually, it didn't contain too many factual inaccuracies, which is rare for a band biography, and the author's lack of sychophaticism was somewhat refreshing. Granted his bashing of Teenager is daft, but a lot of what he writes is pretty drôle.
The (Vicky's story) bits don't really work at all, but that said they're a good one in the eye for obsessive über-fans. Actually I thought, were one new to the Pixies and Frank, it was a rather good biography.
Music biographies are notoriously shit. Only Julian Cope's autobiography (and note, it's an autopiography), Head On, comes to mind that was anything but dire. So as it is, I felt Gigantic was alright.
Well that's my two cents.
____________________________________________________________________________
 Treat yourself - www.blackmarias.com - the best new band. |
| frank black conspiracy |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 09:15:06
don't they say there's a thin line between 'genius' and 'madness'.
Brian Wilson too true a genius. I don't think anyone who knows anything could ever dispute that one. |
| billgoodman |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:30:41
Richard Thompson?
funny, he's a brilliant guitar player
maybe a genius too
it's all a matter of opinion of course
but I think he's not more of a genius than Frank is
myself
I think only Brian Wilson is a genius
given the fact that I think a genius is also a man
who's a very weird and is also insane (maybe)
because his work sounds like math or science to me
also like clasical music
I'm refering to stuff like Pet Sounds/Smile, not the mike love lyrics ok
Btw, even the stupid fun-in-the-sun songs have some great melodies and music.
 "I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
| frank black conspiracy |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 07:15:50
Cult, sorry, my spelling mistake..."If you're Charles Michael Kittridge Thompson IV" to be precise.
The fictional character is a bit weird. involves hitting this site for 12 hours one night, realising being obsessed with both the Pixies and Frank, and in turn seeing a shrink because of both the obsession and sexual fb fantasies. Hooking up with a crazed fan who spends the best part of his days and nights camped outside franks house waiting for a glimpse.
If you want a quote on anything, an album, a song, whatever, just let me know and i'll post it. Saves me boring you all by dropping in random pieces of dialogue.
And thanks for the colours. It all makes sense now. |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 07:01:29
quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
Yeah, a few nice pats on the back but where else would you research fb other than here.
This site deserves a mention anytime a book is written on one Frank Black.
Wonder if this was Floops input:
"What's the first thing you do if you've gone solo, and want to make it as hard as possible for yourself to cash on on the reputation of the very successful band you've just broken up with a fax and a radio interview? If your charles Thompson, and seemingly have a compulsion for shooting yourself in the foot, you start calling yourself by a name your fans don't know. You mothball Black francis, that is, and adapt Frank black, a name better suited to the square-jawed fellow who supervises a crew of Latinos who remove asbestos from people's attics, belongs to two bowling leagues, and every night after work has a shot and a beer chaser."
Doubt it.
Maybe this...
"Frank Black & The Catholics, hereinafter The Orange Album...as fans would come to call it..."
Now i'm a little confused again.
Isn't self-titled FB the orange one and FB&TCs the yellow one? anyone?
I always went by the colour of the disc and/or front cover.
Yeah, self-titled "Frank Black" is orange, FB&C's is brown. Also, does it really say "if your Charles Thompson"?
John and I have been talking/debating/discussing and he says that he wanted to write the book more from the view of the band of itself (semi-auto-biographical) as opposed to writing it this way and seems rather hurt/bitter that Ken turned on him and Chuck didn't meet him while he was in London. Which he referred to as another example of "shooting himself in the foot" since the book could've been much more pleasant for them and him (and us) if he'd been able to do that angle instead.
He also points out that his fictional character is a big fan of Pixies/FB and remains so throughout and says that he often felt he was exaggerating positives wherever he could find them in an effort to not be so negative.
Thought it might shed some light on some of this.
In any case, it's interesting to get to read some quotes here as I've not purchased it and don't foresee a purchase in the immediate future. :)
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
| frank black conspiracy |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 06:41:47
quote:
Originally posted by Triakel
What word would we use ... hmmm ... BORING? I like most of artists the author mentions in this quote, but they provide odd comparisons considering they are R&B, folk, and what ... adult contemporary artists?
The only artist with a career arc and artistic sensibilities remotely similar to Frank's is Elvis Costello. At least compare the Pixies to bands of their genre!
Yeah, i'm not a fan of some of the other names mentioned, in fact people like Elvis (both of them) and Stevie Wonder I just don't have the time for. Can't be bothered to listen to them because the amount of times I've seen and heard their songs, they don't hit me where Frank's music does. They don't hit me at in the slightest other than, oh, i like that bit. Not good enough to me to warrant play. But now isn't that just my opinion? I should write a book. |
| frank black conspiracy |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 06:34:50
Yeah, a few nice pats on the back but where else would you research fb other than here.
This site deserves a mention anytime a book is written on one Frank Black.
Wonder if this was Floops input:
"What's the first thing you do if you've gone solo, and want to make it as hard as possible for yourself to cash on on the reputation of the very successful band you've just broken up with a fax and a radio interview? If your charles Thompson, and seemingly have a compulsion for shooting yourself in the foot, you start calling yourself by a name your fans don't know. You mothball Black francis, that is, and adapt Frank black, a name better suited to the square-jawed fellow who supervises a crew of Latinos who remove asbestos from people's attics, belongs to two bowling leagues, and every night after work has a shot and a beer chaser."
Doubt it.
Maybe this...
"Frank Black & The Catholics, hereinafter The Orange Album...as fans would come to call it..."
Now i'm a little confused again.
Isn't self-titled FB the orange one and FB&TCs the yellow one? anyone?
I always went by the colour of the disc and/or front cover. |
| Triakel |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 06:28:14
quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
"If you use genius to describe Charles bloody Thompson, what word is left to describe Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Elvis Costello, Richard Thompson, and Ron Sexsmith?"
What word would we use ... hmmm ... BORING? I like most of artists the author mentions in this quote, but they provide odd comparisons considering they are R&B, folk, and what ... adult contemporary artists?
The only artist with a career arc and artistic sensibilities remotely similar to Frank's is Elvis Costello. At least compare the Pixies to bands of their genre!
Truly, I can understand the author's frustration with bands that are overrated. But it's not the Pixies' fault that they've become indie icons, or that NME or whoever has an irrational, uncritical, sychophantic devotion the Pixies. Many in the Pixies cult, and certainly that same mag *hate* Frank Black's music -- in an equally irrational, wholly critical, borderline-personality kind of way. "Mommy good! Daddy bad!"
To me, Frank is a musical genius. But I don't consider that genius something to worship or envy, exalt or hate. I just really dig his shit. I want to pay money to hear him play. I can use my brain *and* shake my ass. Makes me feel good.
Why so petty, Mr. Mendelssohn? Were your musical dreams thwarted?
I'm reminded of a quote, from all things, an Oingo Boingo song:
"You never lived in the streets
Though you wish you had
Not enough talent to play a guitar
You failed as an artist
'Cause you lacked in the confidence
Now you're a critic and you're at the top
(The top of what?)
You're an impostor
You don't believe what you write"
|
|
|
