| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arm Arm Arm |
Posted - 10/02/2016 : 11:34:56
I don't understand why more people don't listen to Frank's solo albums, particularly the first three. It's not some huge shift, they're albums full of rock songs. I understand, if after the pixies break-up people were angry, or missed Kim's vocals intertwined and contrasted with his but after more time went by you'd think these albums would be lauded.
Don't get me wrong, I don't care if critics like them, or if they're huge hits or not...for me, they're great rock records.
What I don't understand is how people can enjoy the Pixies music and avoid the solo works, especially the early ones which probably had the most in common with the Pixies. There's not some huge stylistic shift, you've got pop songs, harder rocking songs, quirky songs, sometimes all three combined, you even have one of his most beautiful rock songs ever, Speedy Marie. Why wasn't that a huge hit?
I just don't understand it.
The first taste of solo Frank is Los Angeles. He lead off with an amazingly catchy tune. The slow beginning pulls you in before the song takes off and ends with a midtempo coda gently moving you along. You'd think people would hear this and be excited, this is just the beginning of a whole album of this type of quality songwriting.
Ahh, but maybe the songs are too weird or needed more time to be appreciated, time people weren't willing to give. Then what's the story with Doolittle? Is I Bleed an easy song to listen to? Or Dead? And yet Doolittle is considered by many to be the Pixies's peak.
Jumping from Pixies to the Catholics and being disappointed? I understand that. Heck, I felt it going from the first three solo to the Catholics and it took me a while to appreciate that first album.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but my impression is the first three solo records are considered disappointments and the Catholics as boring classic rock.
I figure there are some listeners who came to his solo material first and love it; picture the opening two punch of Pong? and Thellasocaray and then a whole album with a wonderful sprawl of diferent styles, intesne crazy solos and pop and rock tunes...how can people who like rock music not love it?
There are certain stereotypes regarding Frank and the Pixies, one of which is Doolitle being their best record, another, that his solo work never ever compared to the Pixies. Why is that? and do you think the perception has changed?
cheers
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| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bedbug |
Posted - 04/06/2017 : 02:35:21
Found myself listening to some of those early 90s concerts of FB recently posted (from forum member benji I believe) and wondered, "Is there a single member of this forum who would rank any one of the 2.0 songs as being better than Los Angeles?"
Is any song on IC or HC better than L.A?
And if not, will we ever here L.A. live again?
Will we always live in a world where we have a better chance of hearing Baal's Back or Snakes than Los Angeles?
Does the man himself even know how good L.A. is and how much we'd rather here that than Talent?
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| yarbles |
Posted - 10/21/2016 : 14:33:26
quote:
Strangely (or not), when I want to listen to some FB, I very often chose Non Stop Erotik. Maybe it's just because we had less time to wear it out, but I think it's an excellent record.
Denis
I love the middle stretch of Non Stop Erotik. Wheels/Dead Man's Curve/Corrina/Six Legged Man. Solid! |
| vilainde |
Posted - 10/20/2016 : 08:39:16
quote:
Originally posted by two reelers
Everything after FMRM does not really do it for me. There are very few exceptions (e.g. Deadman's curve, Don't get me wrong).
Strangely (or not), when I want to listen to some FB, I very often chose Non Stop Erotik. Maybe it's just because we had less time to wear it out, but I think it's an excellent record.
Denis
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| Bedbug |
Posted - 10/20/2016 : 07:09:55
Second try:
Maybe the passage of time will allow people to see (hear) less of a difference between FB and Pixies 1.0 (or 2.0 and 1.0 for that matter).
It's not like Pilgrim through Trompe comprise one monolithic kaboom. |
| two reelers |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 16:19:44
Pixies & FB until SMYT is the thing for me. All throughout songs with the same sparks and same feeling. And the FB/Pixies feeling can be summarized by one word: urgency.
Both Honeycomb and FMRM suffer from the production/arrangment, partly, in my view. The songs are very good again, but only on HC I find a few with the same feeling of urgency (e.g. the title track, Atom in my heart). The rest is too mellow - but not in terms of sound, just in terms of delivering to the listener. It just does not feel so important (to the artist) any more.
I have the simple theory that new marriage and kids changed the attitude and approach of Charles Thompson. Perfectly understandable - the focus of life shifts.
Everything after FMRM does not really do it for me. There are very few exceptions (e.g. Deadman's curve, Don't get me wrong). I'm not complaining. Most pop/rock artists produce 2 to 3 ouststanding albums, if at all. Charles Thompson had a stellar performance and delivery for 20 years without any flaws. I can't think of many who did so.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
| Bedbug |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 10:53:17
I became a Pixies fan in 1990 and was quite surprised that many of my Pixies fan friends had no interest in solo FB. It didn't make any sense to me. I couldn't even find anyone to come with me to see him in '93 at Roseland.
It makes more sense to me now because it took me a long time to get into FB & the C's after CoR.
Maybe few people like him in real time. |
| Stevio10 |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 09:21:15
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Blue-collar graft? Interesting description.
 "If we hit this bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
Maybe that's too much of a generalisation of a certain period of his solo career and in no way meant as a negative.
I got into Pixies first (after breakup too) then became aware FB had a solo career from reading a review of first Catholics album.
I bought it somewhat reluctantly, a bit hungover and feeling a little blue from a breakdown in a relationship.
Was probably the best purchase I made being introduced to a new world.
Going from say, Debaser to, Do You Feel Bad About It was quite a change for me. But a great change - there was this raw emotional feeling inside me and DYFBAI helped me deal with it on a personal level Pixies couldn't.
To elaborate, the blue collar graft is (to me) like the same grit and steel from artists like Bruce Springsteen, Steve Earle, Tom Petty and a little Tom Waits. Most notably from the Catholics period - honest, tough and hard working.
The first 3 solo albums (or period) I'd say are less like this. Maybe this was a period of natural evolution to get further away from the past and perhaps this isolated him (intentionally) from what was popular at that time and beyond.
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| vilainde |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 05:39:45
I got into the Pixies after they disbanded - I first heard their albums in 1995 I think. So I didn't have to care about the breakup drama shit.
As tro says, some people just liked Pixies as a whole band. For a more recent example, take Sonic Youth' messy breakup. I can imagine the Chelsea Light Moving album sold much less than the last SY record, despite positive reviews. I know I didn't even try to listen to it.
Denis
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| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 04:35:45
Blue-collar graft? Interesting description.
"If we hit this bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
| trobrianders |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 01:05:05
If people loved the Pixies and didn't go on to love the solo work I have to deduce they loved Pixies as a band. They loved Kim. They loved Joey's guitar as well as Charles' quirkiness. Nothing unusual about that. I went on to love the solo work because I dug what Charles brought to it most; the music, the songwriting, the attitude.
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
| Stevio10 |
Posted - 10/11/2016 : 03:00:55
Love the Beefheart meets Neil Young comparison. Funny haven't heard much of comparison / influence by the Captain.
Know there's the EDF, Ralph Carney link but I'm sure I heard FB's father was an acquaintance of Beefheart.
The Beefheart song, Ice Cream for Crow, that repeated riff - that's something I hear a lot of similarities with since working with EDF. Pong, I Sent Away, Threshold, Um Chagga Lagga even.
Probably way off as usual haha! |
| Stevio10 |
Posted - 10/10/2016 : 02:54:41
I guess for me the Pixies were more art house students of surrealism and Frank Black solo is more blue collar graft. Though I listen more to the solo stuff than the classic Pixies albums these days.
The move from 4AD to American then Cooking Vinyl kinda reinforces the blue collar thing.
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| The Maharal |
Posted - 10/06/2016 : 09:16:04
I very much like this forum and the layout is easy on the eye. However, it would be nice if it were made available on tapatalk as that's handier for people browsing via phones. |
| Arm Arm Arm |
Posted - 10/05/2016 : 11:23:06
Those are good reasons Peter Radiator; it makes sense.
cheers |
| Arm Arm Arm |
Posted - 10/05/2016 : 11:21:44
Thanks for your detailed response Sdon. It's interesting to hear what someone who isn't a fan of most of Fb's solo career has to say and why. It's doubly impressive that you're bilingual. My attempt to express myself in French would be something like:
Bonjour. Je'mappelle Arm Trois. Je suis un patron de Frank Black. Il records est tres magnifique! Monsieur Noir est musician extraordinaire. Bonjour. |
| sdon |
Posted - 10/05/2016 : 04:16:10
I like that on this forum we feel "among fans", unaffected by the social media turmoil (or only indireclty)
And that sometimes The Man comes to visit... :)
--
"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)" |
| picpic |
Posted - 10/04/2016 : 21:50:24
Lots of contemporary forum engines offer responsive design that is both compatible with computerss & also tablets + smartphones. Snitz Forum 2000 is indeed old-school on every aspect, including security. But the design & colors are easy to read and classy. I really like the visual aspect. But that's true most people just don't really use forums anymore for such thing as rock bands. Bands are all over social media, their entire catalog is on Spotify, you can be alerted on your smartphone when tickets are available for shows, etc... Forums are more for hardcore fans I guess.
___
"Service Unavailable" |
| Arm Arm Arm |
Posted - 10/04/2016 : 16:59:37
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
These kind of old school boards are kind of passe these days I guess.
This is one of the best designed message boards I've come across; easy on the eyes and to use.
The biggest problem was the temporary collapse but that's been fixed. This "place" is largely filled with intelligent discussions and while it seemed to be the most active during the Catholics era, it's still pretty busy, especially with Head-Carrier's release.
A lot of sites I check out have changed over the years, with an ugly design for tablets and phones; a look i don't care for.
This message board with clearly delineated topics is ideal for discussion and far superior to something like fb or sites that use disquus.
cheers |
| Bedbug |
Posted - 10/03/2016 : 05:41:06
Agreed re: Canonball.
Maybe we should add that to our dream track list of the 6th album |
| sdon |
Posted - 10/03/2016 : 05:27:29
Heck, with a bit more maturity, imagine Cannonball could have been a Pixies hit !
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"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)" |
| Bedbug |
Posted - 10/03/2016 : 05:15:20
In many respects I like that he cut those cords. If they hadn't broken up when they did and had gone on to release Orange or TOTY as the 6th album they probably would have cashed in more than Blind Melon or something around that time. I liked that he was being hard to like, at least to some. |
| sdon |
Posted - 10/03/2016 : 05:03:23
I do feel that Surfer > Doolittle > Bossanova > Trompe evolution, but I liked it as "this band onboards me on an ever-improving, crescendo journey"
Whereas with FB solo stuff I felt embarked on a side stream, not onwards
It really has to do with the identity, the personality of the songs, both intrinsically ("Calistan" or "Abstact Plane" are another source of inspiration than, say, Subbacultcha or Alec Eiffel) and extrinsically (the form,the playing, the sound, the overall production and packaging around it).
FB cut many cords after splitting, not only with band mates and press, but with a huge part of the fan base. Only diehard fans or open minded people kept following his work
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"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)" |
| Bedbug |
Posted - 10/03/2016 : 04:53:29
Picpic I agree
Many people have called Trompe the first solo FB album.
And I think you could argue that BF was transitioning into FB before the band broke up. Some of those last 1.0 concerts he's very chatty, his personality seems different than silent Black. And didn't EDF join them on stage a bunch then too.
It may be that 1.0 ended with Bossanova or Trompe for all we know. |
| picpic |
Posted - 10/03/2016 : 04:37:48
I think many Pixies "fans" initially liked the band mostly for the early Pixies sound. They either became fans by listening to Doolitte or Surfer Rosa. Bossanova & Trompe were already more challenging for them, so don't ask for Frank Black or current Pixies material.
___
"Service Unavailable" |
| sdon |
Posted - 10/03/2016 : 02:57:15
I can only talk about myself, and friends of mine who had a similar trajectory. I can safely say I've always been the hugest Pixies fan in my entourage. But I never was such a fan of FB, for many reasons I was never able to rationalize.
Paradoxically, I was a huge Pixies fan, but I wasn't too bothered with the split because I had faith I would still like the solo output.
Then I realized Pixies was not equal to FB
There were so many (deliberate) things that were screaming to me "this is not so good anymore", and in retrospect might have been roots of the widening gap with Kim Deal
- the name : Frank Black monicker was so simple and anonymous, it didn't feel right for such a genius weirdo as Charles Thompson... even claiming to be an average weirdo Joe
- Nick Vincent and Eric Drew Feldman, while huge artists, do not convey at all the Pixies aesthetics (some would say 'bullshit, there's no such thing as Pixies aesthetic", but I sure think there is, and the band line-up makes the aesthetics). Let alone Lyle Workman.
- the sound : crucial component of my distaste for post-Pixies albums, up to Bluefinger probably
- the voice : BF's vocal style became slightly different after Trompe. I remember a friend of mine almost becoming "allergic" to some specific ways of singing.
- the artwork : plays a big part. Orange and TOTY were "lighthearted". Cult Of Ray artwork is plain horrid, as most FB & Catholics stuff
- above all, the style. Pixies defined a style, and refined it. But then FB just gave it up, and went for something like 90's Beach Boys or whatever. This was still interesting, but not as original, nor logical as a musical evolution.
I used to listen on repeat to Los Angeles, Ten Percenter, Fu Manchu, Czar, Brackish Boy, Parry The Wind... and then even more to Pong, Thalassocracy, Freedom Rock... but this wasn't Pixies, I was trying to fool myself.
I bought Cult Of Ray the day it was released, and didn't like it so much. And then Catholics, I never got into them, and still tag them as rather boring "classic rock"
It's Honeycomb that made me regain interest in FB, and then Christmass which was to me some "back to spark" opus. The heterogenous output of Bluefinger, Svnfngrs, Grandy Duchy, Golem, NSE... brought mixed hopes.
IC was great (even with its production flaws), and HC greater.
It's as if BF finally reconciled his past incarnations and is at peace with himselves (?). I mean, I feel he had an inferiority complex as FB and "tried too much", to be loved, to be interesting, to be disdainful of the system, to be a classic American songwriter, etc. Now it all seems to flow naturally, as if he was "whole" again.
Sorry for the pseudo-psychology ramblings, it's a difficult topic
Exciting times ahead.
--
"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)" |
| Bedbug |
Posted - 10/03/2016 : 01:57:48
When I saw him in 93 I was hoping he would play some of the stuff he played when I saw them in 92. But by the time I was going to see him in 09 and 10 I was hoping he would play the stuff he was playing in 93-94. It just takes a while for people to get him (if they ever do). Like Radiator said, he's several decades ahead.
And reluctantly I must admit that I didn't get into Catholic Frank for a while. It was actually Honeycomb that made me go back to FB&C's and give them another try.
Thank you Honeycomb.
Cult of Ray is literally the only CD in my car right now, just listening to it over and over again. This album is so freaking good; I can't understand how someone who likes Pixies 1.0 or 2.0 wouldn't love this album too. |
| OLDMANOTY |
Posted - 10/03/2016 : 01:13:38
I wonder if anyone discovered Frank Black via Honeycomb having no idea about Pixies/his other stuff? Unlikely I suppose, but going from there to sampling TOTY would have been quite a shock to the system!
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| peter radiator |
Posted - 10/02/2016 : 15:41:51
Viva le Passe!
--
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
| johnnyribcage |
Posted - 10/02/2016 : 15:02:59
True - good call. I go in waves on the forum for sure. When there is some new action I get really active, then tend to disappear with the exception of whenever I happen to go on an FBF kick and need someone to talk to about it - lol. And the occasional drunk post.
I deleted my facebook account almost a year ago for a couple reasons, not the least of which were the profound number of posts in my feed from people I wasn't friends with, and of course, the upcoming elections which I had no desire to see play out in the way something like that only can on facebook. Don't use twitter. Don't use instagram. I suppose I'm right at the edge of getting left behind like an old fogey... I'm okay with that! These kind of old school boards are kind of passe these days I guess.
Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow |
| Cult_Of_Frank |
Posted - 10/02/2016 : 14:49:28
Well, why the forum drop off is probably more than just not connecting with the new music (but certainly that's part of it for some). It's also that FB became a lot more accessible through other avenues and this wasn't the exclusive source. It's that the people who were really passionate about his work have grown up, busy, and pre-occupied with real life. But it is a lot more lively at the moment than I've seen it in awhile, which I'm happy to see (even though I don't participate much). There are also a LOT more avenues for time-spending on the internet. Back in the day I used to refresh the forum multiple times per hour. Now there's Facebook, Twitter, news, etc etc.
As for not getting the solo work on the heels of the Pixies, I was exposed after the fact to a mix CD of FB solo and a mix CD of Pixies. The FB solo stuff resonated pretty immediately but the Pixies took time. I haven't yet had enough time to digest Head Carrier to weigh in on it.
"If we hit this bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
| johnnyribcage |
Posted - 10/02/2016 : 13:56:08
Fast Man was probably the final nail though in this forum. It's mainly been diehards since that one.
I also really enjoy FMRM but can see where some folks may have finally lost interest on that one.
Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow |
| johnnyribcage |
Posted - 10/02/2016 : 13:49:15
Yeah Honeycomb seemed to drag the forum down. Which is unfortunate. It's one of my absolute favorites of his. Too many folks with narrow minds when it comes to music I guess. "No distorted guitars? No screaming? What's this shit???" My record and itunes collection spans centuries and hits basically every genre. (Centuries of composition obviously - of course recording hasn't been around that long).
The richness of music is far too great to live in one little corner of it all the time. I can't imagine that.
Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow |
| hammerhands |
Posted - 10/02/2016 : 13:39:06
I have a friend who wouldn't listen to FB because of the way the band broke up.
I noticed the greatest drop-off here at Honeycomb. |
| johnnyribcage |
Posted - 10/02/2016 : 13:34:22
As usual, great analysis there PR.
I can't add much. I love the solo stuff of course but I guess I can totally see why it never took off. You mentioned the 'restless youth,' and I think that those interesting marketing choices in the angsty environment of what was actually finding success among the record buying public sank any possibility of true commercial success. Which, like you said, he seemed to revel in. Even if he didn't, it comes across that way, particularly in hindsight. I mean, look at what was popular in those days in the world of rock. I was 13 when the first solo album came out, and still 3 years from finding the Pixies for myself when I finally followed that lead Cobain dropped a few years prior. That was a game changer for me, but still, I wasn't interested until way after the fact. The Catholics were already at work by the time I even found the Pixies, to say nothing of the solo stuff. I represent that missed market from those days.
I mean, those first couple sunny, poppy, outrageously fun albums were going up against the likes of In Utero, Vs., Vitology, Purple, Superunknown, Downward Spiral, etc. Combine that with the bad press that stuck with him and no wonder.
So that helps explain the then, but what about the now? Pixies are quite huge these days (relatively). And there are a ton of people following them now that weren't even alive in 1993. Why aren't they revisiting that solo stuff? The only thing I can think is they've read too many negative opinions and declined to seek out the music and develop their own opinions. Or maybe they gave Black Letter days a couple 30 second samples, heard a steel guitar or 30 seconds of Chip Away Boy (great track) rather than Debaser, so they never bothered.
Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow |
| peter radiator |
Posted - 10/02/2016 : 12:44:26
It may have something to do with most fans being fickle creatures and not particularly interested in following the frontman of a band they like into his solo career.
Especially after the negative press that the Pixies breakup received.
It's easy to forget (or impossible to recall, for those fans not old enough to have followed such things when they initially went down) just how pilloried FBF was in some circles of the music press for the whole "dissolving the group by fax" thing.
And this was years before the internet, when music mags and newspapers were the main source of information and opinion for those of us into such things.
The coverage of the band's split was overblown and it created a narrative of Kim (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the band) as being hapless victims of some cruel whim on the part of a bandleader whose head had gotten too big for his shoulders.
Of course, that was essentially nonsense, but a great deal of the more nuanced and understandable reasons for the tension among the entire group which led to that dissolution were either unknown to the public, or downplayed by the press, who wanted to create a "he vs. she" tabloid style dynamic.
I think the false impression of FBF as some sort of petulant prima donna wound up sticking to a certain degree, which was aided and abetted by his reluctance to - or disinterest in - speak(ing) candidly or in any sort of detail about the realities of the situation.
That made some swath of fans less inclined to even give his solo stuff much of a try, and I think that resulted in poor sales out of the gate. The first FB solo LP wound up in cut-out bins not too long after it hit the shelves, which I can only chalk up to the label pressing way too many copies due to greatly overestimated demand.
Another possible reason for the drastic drop in interest between his output with the band and his output as a solo artist is the fact that while the Pixies public image was infused with dark and somewhat creepy surrealist energy, FBF's initial solo albums were instead packaged and advertised with more of a Dada-ist, lighthearted and whimsical type of surrealism on display.
Look at the pop art cover of the Orange LP, which practically screams "I'm not in that dark and creepy death-pop band anymore!" - or the intentionally absurd promo video for the first solo single "Los Angeles," which basically trolls the viewers into thinking that there's some sort of Seattle grunge band behind the record, and then winds up with FBF gliding around in a hovercraft for no apparent reason with a look on his face that says "If the record company is willing to front the money for such shenanigans, who am I to turn down an opportunity to glide around in a hovercraft for no apparent reason?"
TOTY continued in that vein of FBF goofing on the entire notion of him being interested in "selling himself" at all, let alone to fans of his former band.
The odd disguises and strange settings of the promo pics which were included with (and used to promote) that sprawling, challenging collection of disparate art-rock, metal and even dub are - once again - sly and cheeky rather than eerie.
The eerie vibe would have been perfectly geared toward the "restless youth" which, be and large, bought Pixies records upon their initial release, and instead, he was singing about the Three Stooges and Fiddle Riddles.
Essentially, he shifted into more of a Beefheart-meets-Neil Young-at-his-most-bird-flippingly-impenetrable mode, but made sure at least 70% of the songs were wonderfully hummable pop confections (buried underneath layers and layers of noise and delicious red herrings.)
It was a TOUGH sell, and he seemed to be reveling in that at the time.
I think to a certain extent, he still does. It's just that time and reputation have eventually caught up with him.
He was always a few decades too early. Nowadays people are much more trained and able to digest the kind of things he does best, and at long last there is also a sizable international following for his old releases for that very reason. This feeds into interest in his new efforts.
That's my take on it, at least.
As always, I could be 1000% wrong.
--
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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